|
There seems to be an overwhelming attitude on this site and others that cheesing while on ladder is both fruitless and something to be frowned upon. Multiple threads on teamliquid and r/starcraft, for example, have people constantly reminding us that cheese on ladder doesn't contribute to growth as a player and only acts as "free wins".
It is my contention that this is not the case, for five major reasons.
1. Warm-up
This only really applies at the beginning of a session, but cheesing allows a player to warm up his hands and start up his mechanics while doing a strategy that doesn't require as much mechanical ability to execute properly. It reduces punishment against you for not being warmed up while playing Starcraft while dedicating this period to actual gameplay.
2. Destress
Going on long losing streaks is a part of being a player on the ladder, no doubt. When nothing seems to be working, and taking breaks is either out of the question or doesn't seem to be having any effect, a few cheese games can allow you to gain back some confidence (Hey, I can actually win a game!) by doing easier to execute strategies which give you less of a chance to screw up because of tilt.
3. See how it is defended.
Another situational reason, but one that comes up frequently (statistically 1/3 of the time!), is to see how players of your race defend whatever cheese you're doing. Being a player who frequently loses to early all-ins is frustrating, so I added some cheese to my ladder mix in order to see how other terrans fend it off. Oftentimes the answer is "they don't", which on face doesn't seem to be helpful, but watching the replays of these games can often show you mistakes they make which you can subsequently not make in your own play.
4. Work on micro
Probably the most obvious point so far, but oftentimes the most useful, is to work on micro. Marine/SCV allining allows me to practice micro which comes in handy not only in these all-in situations but in defensive spots as well: if a terran does a 1 base timing attack against my fast expand, I'm going to usually have marines and SCVs to handle it. Having this baseline micro ability aids greatly in dealing with these situations.
5. Fun
Starcraft is a game, in the end, and if you're not having fun there's no real purpose to playing (unless you're getting paid to, but, quite frankly, you're probably not). Dedicating 200 APM for 30 minutes of gameplay versus a much smaller timeframe and much less mechanical requirement (laughing at how bad some people are at trashtalk is pretty sweet, too) is a pretty easy choice to make at times, even if the thrill of winning a long macro game is more satisfying to you.
  
|
I only was able to cheese once ever since I made the switch to Zerg. While it may be annoying to the opponent, it's pretty damn fun for a time. Ever since, I hardly got the chance to do some cheesing unless I spawn on either Xel'naga Caverns or Scrap Station.
Speaking of cheese, I notice that the 6 Pool is way more effective to use in a ZvP match. Is that really the case?
|
one more major reason: too win! cheesing is really easy and easy to win lol.
|
another reason: so you can make a thread on TL saying that you cheesed your way to grand master league.
edit: spelling
|
well i guess if you dont wanna get that much better this is fine. But and when you get higher up you either be really good a cheesing or you don't go that high up :0,
but you do have a point. cheesing is an option for when you get aggravated and often times the other players really can't stop the cheese. like a proxy 2 gate if they don't scout that right away its usually over.
micro really isn't all that important unless your in diamond or masters so that point isn't really helpful to most ppl
but i am a really competitive person and i like to know that i beat a person because I'm better than them not because i did some random cheese. its not rewarding in the least when i try to cheese. i usually feel better stopping a cheese. that usually tells me the other guy is scared to play a macro game which some ppl have told me they were. like all zergs or terrans.
On May 17 2011 16:09 29 fps wrote:
another reason: so you can make a thread on TL saying that your cheesed your way to grand master league.
CombatEX???????
|
Yes, 7 pool is really good in ZvP. If you look at the thread about the guying 7 pooling in masters, he has a 80% win rate ZvP by 7 pooling, or something crazy to that extent (and only like 15% vs T)
|
I'll have to agree with the entire post although I would prefer longer, macro oriented games. Cheese is part of the game so why not practice it to warm up? 5/5
|
#6. It's a useful skill to have when playing in BOX situations, a well timed cheese can often give you the leg up and inflict psychological damage preventing your opponent from taking and making riskier plays. (i.e. July's 4 and 6 pools)
|
Your stated reasons seem quite biased imho.
I never see a need or reason to cheese, except maybe for BoX where you want to throw your opponent off for the next game. It only makes the ladder more annoying for everyone else and inflates your MMR, so you get a losing streak if you try to play good games again... which only makes you cheese again.
Warm-Up: Thats what custom games are for.
Destress: Thats what teamgames are for.
See how it's defended: Read the forum for strategies to defend cheese or think for about 5 minutes.
Work on micro: Most cheeses require far more micro to defend than to use, so following your logic it would be detrimental to cheese because it requires even less micro and provides less opportunities to improve micro.
Fun: I don't see that point... maybe if you like gambling, you will have fun with flipping coins.
|
On May 17 2011 16:38 echO [W] wrote:
#6. It's a useful skill to have when playing in BOX situations, a well timed cheese can often give you the leg up and inflict psychological damage preventing your opponent from taking and making riskier plays. (i.e. July's 4 and 6 pools)
Don't forget Jaedong's 4pools vs Flash and Fantasy!
|
I have only cheesed once on the ladder in a 1v1. My first ever game, ZvT, when the game came out. I baneling busted and he didn't have siege mode finished. I felt wrong and i hated it so stopped playing for just over half a year. Yeah i don't like cheese 
|
I think we've gotten to a point where cheese is now standard.
|
On May 17 2011 17:21 Morfildur wrote:
Your stated reasons seem quite biased imho.
I never see a need or reason to cheese, except maybe for BoX where you want to throw your opponent off for the next game. It only makes the ladder more annoying for everyone else and inflates your MMR, so you get a losing streak if you try to play good games again... which only makes you cheese again.
Warm-Up: Thats what custom games are for.
Destress: Thats what teamgames are for.
See how it's defended: Read the forum for strategies to defend cheese or think for about 5 minutes.
Work on micro: Most cheeses require far more micro to defend than to use, so following your logic it would be detrimental to cheese because it requires even less micro and provides less opportunities to improve micro.
Fun: I don't see that point... maybe if you like gambling, you will have fun with flipping coins.
There is nothing wrong with cheesing once in a while as long as you do not rely on it too often. The more you cheese especially as you make your way to the higher leagues, you are more likely to fail.
I don't know about you, but I tend to get even more stressed when I play team-based modes in Starcraft if I am not playing alongside friends. I usually get the partner who is afk then quits. That's really annoying if you ask me.
I had to micro a little bit when I once went for the 6 pool in the attempt to evade my opponents attacks. Though yeah, it can take a bit of microing to defedn yourself from a cheese.
In terms of fun, as I said, it's good for laughs, as long as you do not rely on it too often. Many players rely on cheeses for a sure win and it usually ends up biting them in the butt in the end.
|
On May 17 2011 17:44 Loanshark wrote:
I think we've gotten to a point where cheese is now standard.
sounds somehow wrong (in like...it shouldn't be standard, more like a rare exception) to me, but yeah...pretty much true
i dunno why, but i still have a problem to get in the mindset for doing cheesy moves
|
On May 17 2011 17:21 Morfildur wrote:
Your stated reasons seem quite biased imho.
I never see a need or reason to cheese, except maybe for BoX where you want to throw your opponent off for the next game. It only makes the ladder more annoying for everyone else and inflates your MMR, so you get a losing streak if you try to play good games again... which only makes you cheese again.
Warm-Up: Thats what custom games are for.
Destress: Thats what teamgames are for.
See how it's defended: Read the forum for strategies to defend cheese or think for about 5 minutes.
Work on micro: Most cheeses require far more micro to defend than to use, so following your logic it would be detrimental to cheese because it requires even less micro and provides less opportunities to improve micro.
Fun: I don't see that point... maybe if you like gambling, you will have fun with flipping coins.
How do you think you learn how to effectively use those builds in a BoX??
|
On May 17 2011 23:42 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 17:21 Morfildur wrote:
Your stated reasons seem quite biased imho.
I never see a need or reason to cheese, except maybe for BoX where you want to throw your opponent off for the next game. It only makes the ladder more annoying for everyone else and inflates your MMR, so you get a losing streak if you try to play good games again... which only makes you cheese again.
Warm-Up: Thats what custom games are for.
Destress: Thats what teamgames are for.
See how it's defended: Read the forum for strategies to defend cheese or think for about 5 minutes.
Work on micro: Most cheeses require far more micro to defend than to use, so following your logic it would be detrimental to cheese because it requires even less micro and provides less opportunities to improve micro.
Fun: I don't see that point... maybe if you like gambling, you will have fun with flipping coins.
How do you think you learn how to effectively use those builds in a BoX??
In the same situation where i used those strategies. Practice matches to train with a practice partner.
Most people that get into the situation of playing BoX are in a team and have regular training partners, so they have the option to practice any strategy without annoying people on the ladder.
I know there will always be cheeses, but making them part of the regular play just seems really, really wrong to me.
|
I've been cheesed but have never myself since it seems cheap. But I also agree that it can only work when you're in lower rankings and players don't have the know-how to fend it off. If that's how you got your rankings then as soon as you face players that know how to deal with it effectively, you're screwed. So as a long-term strategy, it's pointless.
-S-
|
I have finally exited my mass cheesing period last week.
Up until then, I have been uber aggressive in all 3 match-ups.
Finally, I feel that I have explored all the nuances of my preferred cheese, and it's time to move on.
People are too harsh on cheese, especially when it is such a powerful thing in Starcraft 2. They are missing out on a lot by sitting back and blindly macroing. There is so much to the game that happens before the 10 minute mark, so much to learn about feeling out how ahead you are by army size/worker count rather than time.
Cheese should be part of any decent players handbook. The community is blinded by their anger.
|
On May 17 2011 23:47 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 23:42 Hawk wrote:On May 17 2011 17:21 Morfildur wrote:
Your stated reasons seem quite biased imho.
I never see a need or reason to cheese, except maybe for BoX where you want to throw your opponent off for the next game. It only makes the ladder more annoying for everyone else and inflates your MMR, so you get a losing streak if you try to play good games again... which only makes you cheese again.
Warm-Up: Thats what custom games are for.
Destress: Thats what teamgames are for.
See how it's defended: Read the forum for strategies to defend cheese or think for about 5 minutes.
Work on micro: Most cheeses require far more micro to defend than to use, so following your logic it would be detrimental to cheese because it requires even less micro and provides less opportunities to improve micro.
Fun: I don't see that point... maybe if you like gambling, you will have fun with flipping coins.
How do you think you learn how to effectively use those builds in a BoX?? In the same situation where i used those strategies. Practice matches to train with a practice partner. Most people that get into the situation of playing BoX are in a team and have regular training partners, so they have the option to practice any strategy without annoying people on the ladder. I know there will always be cheeses, but making them part of the regular play just seems really, really wrong to me.
it's a bit different circumstance when you tell your friend 'ok i am 7 pooling now, defend it' and actually doing that on the ladder where players vary wildly in skill and it's not a controlled environment
|
Meh, over 6 months of SC2 and the only time I cheesed was once in 2v2. I don't have some strong code of ethics that opposes it or anything, I just never end up doing it, it's not even a conscious decision. =P
|
I don't find cheesing very fun, at least not as Zerg. 6 pooling is too simple, and our all-ins aren't very spectacular.
On the other hand whenever I play Protoss, doing 4 Gate All-ins, DT rush, Void ray cheese, 2 proxy gates is a fucking BLAST. I mean I'm the type of player who enjoys long eco oriented macro fests when I ladder 1v1 with Zerg, but cheesing and doing all-ins as Protoss is fucking awesome. It's like riding in a Lamborghini with Taylor Swift next to you fondling your body while you run over countless upset, ego charged, nerd raging sacks of filth that we label as "Competitive Starcraft 2 players" all the while Jesus and Buddha are hovering over you in the clouds glaring at you in envy through their golden monocle of bullshit.
Being a good standard player also really helps you cheese or all-in even better because you'll understand when your opponent will be most vulnerable and you'll know how to approach their defenses with the utmost efficiency.
|
On May 18 2011 04:46 Talin wrote:
Meh, over 6 months of SC2 and the only time I cheesed was once in 2v2. I don't have some strong code of ethics that opposes it or anything, I just never end up doing it, it's not even a conscious decision. =P
Cheese in 2v2? There is no such thing as cheese in 2v2s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
