• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:10
CEST 04:10
KST 11:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL60Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event19Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Mineral Boosts Tutorial Video Replays question
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 554 users

Alternative Zerg Queen Role

Blogs > Iyerbeth
Post a Reply
Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-15 00:09:40
May 15 2011 00:08 GMT
#1
Disclaimer: Empyrean said I could make this again.

I have been playing with a new role for Queens recently and I wanted to share it with everyone and ask for critique and input from higher level players. I consulted a moderator before posting and it was suggested writing it as a blog would be the best option so here it is. I originally wanted to make this a strategy forum post, but honestly I'm not able to provide sufficient evidence or experience to make it a post worthy of that forum. I am still going to write this post in a strategy forum style though in order to explain my idea in the clearest way possible, and hopefully get help as a result.

One last thing before I continue, I just want to say I'm only a Silver level player at the moment, and so I appreciate that while the role shift I'd like to propose is working strongly for me, I know that's no basis for it being a strong play overall which is why I'm asking for more experienced and stronger players to provide input on my play idea.

So with the preamble out of the way, my suggestion in short is that Queens should swap roles from the standard hatchery injectors to, for lack of a better description, hive managers. By that I mean that I don't think that inject larva should be the main purpose of Queens in our play as Zerg, but rather they should primarily be spreading Creep or being ready with Transfuse to save our bases.

+ Show Spoiler [The Origin of the Idea] +

I enjoy a heavy Zergling style of play and when Spanishiwa's build became popular I latched on to it realising it provided a strong opening that could easily be used for my usual play. Being able to stop (Silver/Gold admittedly) 4 gate pushes or early marine/tank pushes with basically little more than Queens and Spines made me realise that there was a strong role for Queens outside of just injecting. Spreading Creep and defending against small pushes or drops are tasks that Queens do well, and I began thinking if there was a way I could utilise that role more thoroughly, and this thread is the result.


+ Show Spoiler [What Exactly is the Idea?] +

In short, when an early economy is established macro hatcheries should be built instead of Queens, with regard to getting access to more Larva.

The long version is that this isn't actually a solid build order or some great way to win, it's a shift in focus. At the start of the game you obviously can't afford to be throwing down macro hatcheries in general as the game is just too volatile and the risk of losing must always be on the player's mind, and as a result the standard injection role is the only sensible option. After this part of the game though, I believe the focus with Queens should shift to spreading Creep, whilst additional Hatchery's are placed to make up the missing Larva. I also think that Queens should be able to get enough energy for Transfusion where necessary and be the primary responders to drops or other harassment (backed up by static defence), rather than the army which should always be ready to cause trouble for your opponent.

Having maybe 5 queens available, and spreading creep when you'd normally inject or saving energy for base defence seems to provide a really good alternative to the standard play.


+ Show Spoiler [Some Numbers] +

The big issue with this change is obviously all about Larva, how much are you getting or losing, when are you having it and what are you getting in this new build for the exchange, so here's some maths to explain my thinking.

First there are two facts that I need to state before doing any analysis. A Hatchery spawns a larva every 15 seconds so long as there's not 3 or more. A Queen injection spawns 4 larva after 40 seconds. All numbers are in game time.

Therefore in it's most basic comparison when performed perfectly the standard method can go as follows:

0:00 – *Inject*
0:15 – 1 Larva
0:30 – 1 Larva
0:40 – 4 Larva
0:41 – *Inject*
0:45 – 1 Larva

Total – 7 Larva over 45 seconds.

With my alternative method suggestion it would always be as follows:

0:00 – *Creep Tumour*
0:15 – 2 Larva
0:30 – 2 Larva
0:41 – *Creep Tumour*
0:45 – 2 Larva

Total – 6 Larva + 2 Creep Tumours (or 1 Transfuse) over 45 seconds.

There are a couple of things worth noting about the above numbers though which I want to cover for completions sake. First, if your inject doesn't come immediately after a spawn you do run the risk of the injected Larva popping just before a spawn which results in only 6 larva over 45 seconds (so the same as having a macro Hatchery with no injections) if you're unable to immediately morph the new Larva.

Another consideration though is every 3 minutes 20 seconds or so, if your injects have been completely flawless in both timing and larva use you will gain 4 larva that you won't get from my alternative.

Finally, the only other difference is that with the alternative method you are actually up 1 larva 10 seconds before injects pop.

For the sake of argument I'm going to continue this post assuming perfect injections because I want to compare the best possible outcome from playing both builds as I want to use the stronger style, even if that isn't what I'm presenting in this post.

The other numbers to consider hurt my case, but for the sake of completion I want to include them.

Traditional cost per base:

Hatchery (1 Drone + 1 Hatchery) = 350 Minerals
Queen = 150 Minerals
Total = 450 Minerals

Alternative cost per base:

Hatcheries (2 Drones + 2 Hatcheries) = 700 Minerals
Total = 700 Minerals

Those numbers are representative of the cost for getting the Larva out, clearly both methods require Queens, but since in the standard method additional Queens are produced for spreading Creep or base defence I didn't feel it was accurate to include non injecting Queens in the alternative method.

That said I tend to play with 5 or 6 Queens on the field in order to utilise this method, so you could realistically add a further 900 minerals, but the distinction in unit role is important, in the same way you wouldn't count the cost of Mutalisks and Speedlings defending a base from drops in the cost of the base itself.


+ Show Spoiler [So Why Use This?] +

Pretty much yes, if you play perfectly with the standard method you'll spend less minerals and get more Larva, so now I'm going to have to convince you that this alternative is worth it for what you get in return.

The biggest and immediately most noticeable difference is in Creep spread. If you have your focus on Creep instead of injections you can literally reach the point after not too long that if you wanted to you could immediately spread Creep after spreading all your active Tumours (no I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, I'm giving an idea of the scale of the Creep spread attainable when you're not focusing on injects).

I'm not going to go in to all the benefits of massive creep spread as most people will already know them, but suffice to say this can help you use the 6 larva you'll have per base far more efficiently than the (at best) half hearted Creep spread you routinely see even at the top levels of play. To provide some point for consideration though this method regularly slows down enemy pushes as they can't risk engaging on creep generally, and will spend time trying to clear it out before moving in, and even when they do move in you're able to use your (admittedly one less) Larva far more efficiently and support your bases very efficiently. When your opponent has been pushed back you can immediately replace any lost Tumours generally and all you lose for that massive strategic advantage is 1 Larva every 45 seconds, and 250 minerals per base you set up.

The other way I think this method provides a strong benefit you don't get in a more standard Queen role is again a strategic point, and this time (as mentioned briefly earlier) in base defence. In current play it is very common for a base to have a Spore Crawler or Spine Crawler or two for defending, whilst still forcing significant numbers of a Zerg's main army to return home. As your Creep spread gets going though you can quite easily send a few Queens to locations between bases on most maps, so that when a drop occurs a Queen contingent can come and support the static defences of a base. Transfusion heals for 125, so with just two Transfusions (two queens who would have just missed their second inject in a standard build to show the time frame) you could almost double the effectiveness of Spine Crawlers whilst adding additional DPS as well, and not risking losing out on Larva by using them to fight off harassment. Additionally, while an opponent is dropping you they have their army split up, so now you don't always have to bring Lings back, why not have a group go and counter attack somewhere. I think this point is a serious bonus over the traditional role of Queens desperately trying not to miss an injection.

A more simple benefit that I feel would help people like myself, not at the top tiers of play is you don't have to put any of your APM in to injections, and your Larva count doesn't just jump every 40 seconds requiring immediate attention in order to get the most use out of it, it rather raises steadily. Even if you weren't able to utilise the Creep spread as well as you maybe could even a player in the Bronze league wouldn't be falling too far behind in used Larva when compared to someone at the top of their Grand Master's league with absolutely flawless injections.

The final advantage of this alternative role, ironically, is an injection benefit. When you're in a late game situation and want to trade armies with an opponent and then re-max behind it, or whenever you just need a surge of units quickly you will generally always have enough Hatcheries and energy available that you're able to use a single injection on all of them which will provide enough larva for a massive surge of units. For instance 3 base with this method would be 6 Hatcheries, which after injecting would give 42 larva to use, where a more standard 3 base and maybe one macro Hatchery would provide only 28, and of course the better Creep spread option from this method allows for very fast reinforcements, even for the likes of Hydralisks.


+ Show Spoiler [So When Should I Use This?] +

This role for Queens is quite general but I can't think a single situation where this should be the play from the start. Early game you don't have the time to produce the Hatchery's you need and so have to get every last larva you can from injecting to be safe and I absolutely do not advocate swapping styles until you're stable on two bases. That said though after you reach a stable mid game point there isn't (in my opinion) a time where this style isn't better than the standard.

That said, because of how volatile I find ZvZ I don't ever feel I've reached a stable mid game and so I don't yet use this in a mirror match up.


This is where I was going to add replays, but honestly I don't feel that even on my best day I could show the real strength I feel is in this style and as this isn't a strategy forum post I'll take that advantage. It is working for me at the moment, but as I said in the start, I know a lot of bad idea's can work well in lower levels of play, so we get to the point of this thread.

Can better players than I give their input on this, or maybe try it out and provide replays showing it sucking or doing well (I'll add any posted to this post). If I'm wrong and this idea is awful I'd like to know so I can stop using it or change the way I use it as necessary. If it's amazing and I see it in the next GSL I'd like the credit though. So yeah, any input at all would be definitely appreciated.

Thanks for reading!

*****
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
Rollin
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia1552 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-15 00:57:44
May 15 2011 00:37 GMT
#2
Interesting, I would consider using a variation of this non inject style at my nat for a little while, to have bulk creep spread early game, and saved energy for more transfuses, but the extra mineral cost for the early third hatch is going to be problematic (its more than 2 spines worth of mins, and only 1 less larvae).

I think however that doing this for every base will be more of a hinderance than a benefit lategame, as 1-2 transfuses from 1 queen won't help to defend a drop whatsoever, and having multiple queens at each base will be such a drain on minerals and supply (as well as the masses of macro hatcheries).

This is why in ZvT mutas are common for map control, to shut down the need as much for worrying about drops, and freeing up ground forces. Similarly in ZvP a spore or 2 and a couple of spines are used when on 3-4+ bases to hold against a small ground harassment, or dt harassment, which don't cost supply, and are much more effective(vs ground).

Now thinking a bit more clearly, even double queens from each hatch if you aren't going (early) lair would achieve the same result, excepting slightly later creep spread (by about 30 seconds)... Perhaps someone else will be able to see a way to utilize this more effectively than I can ^_^

Edit: Btw I'm not high level, just inputting some more food for thought, as I do have a fair understanding of the game, just lacking practice/mechanics
Throw off those chains of reason, and your prison disappears. | Check your posting frequency timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/post_activity_img.php
jrkirby
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1510 Posts
May 15 2011 05:43 GMT
#3
Why don't you just get a second queen for creep spread?

And off topic: I see loads of intelligent sounding people saying that they're only silver or gold, while I'm diamond, and have horrible mechanics (I don't even hotkey my units) and I have no trouble. How do these intelligent people stay in these low leagues?
Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-15 11:45:27
May 15 2011 10:59 GMT
#4
Hi both, thanks for the input.

Whilst the Creep spread is one of the most obvious side effects, the reason it's not just a case of getting a getting another Queen for Creep is mainly the fact you get the same amount of Larva at a cost of 0 APM freeing you up to do other things, with no penalty for not getting the timings right constantly. For the first time since I've started playing I'm able to max out not too far behind the times I see professional players doing.

That said if it was purely a case of being a way around an APM restriction I wouldn't have posted it and would have just worked on getting better, but since this free's up those Queens for other uses that's where I was focussing my attention with my recent play. Covering everything in Shakuras Plateau in Creep except my opponents natural and main in 15 minutes whilst still being able to play a stronger style I usually do for instance was pretty awesome to me.

Again with reference to SP, having a couple of Spines and a Spore at each base and 3 queens north and 3 Queens south which wouldn't hurt my Larva use if they died made defending the (admitedly in the game I'm referencing only 1) drop ship harassment basically nothing with even the most basic of Transfuse micro and I didn't have to pull my army to deal with it, which I'm sure a better player than I could utilise significantly better than I did (I just attack moved my Lings to an isolated expansion I saw my opponent taking).

Admittedly a 4-5 Medivac's worth of drop would still be something that needs dealing with by your army, but that's more an actual army engagement with that amount of units, and not just minor harass.

The way I'm currently using the macro Hatcheries is literally a 1 for 1 with bases, so 4 bases is 4 macro Hatcheries, and at my level of play I don't feel I'm being overly taxed by doing it. I've heard IdrA say at some point in the past week he was saccing a base because it was "only 300 minerals" so I get the impression it would be the same at higher levels of play too.

I'll upload a couple of replays tomorrow (I'm heading out today) although they will only show the method as played by a Silver leaguer so yeah, not ideal but hopefully they'll show some of the strengths I'm refering to.

And off topic:

On May 15 2011 14:43 jrkirby wrote:
And off topic: I see loads of intelligent sounding people saying that they're only silver or gold, while I'm diamond, and have horrible mechanics (I don't even hotkey my units) and I have no trouble. How do these intelligent people stay in these low leagues?


Thanks for what I'm perceiving as a compliment. I'm still in Silver league because everything goes great for me until my opponent does something. By that I mean I can accurately scout off very minimal information, my early game I think is generally fairly strong, I don't get supply capped often, I use hotkeys for everything (and have re-designed most of them for my use) and everything is great until my opponent does anything.

At that point I have to go off script and deal with it. I'll panic and make stupid decisions. Injections go out the window, scouting - WTF is that!? Expanding can wait we're under attack here! I look for counter attack options to make them stop and I just waste more units, screw drones, what if he sends another lone marine??? You get the idea. I literally had a game a few months back where I scouted 2 Zealots and an expansion. Most Zerg players would see that as an opportunity, and I knew I wasn't in any immediate danger....still I put up 5 Spine Crawlers to be safe. Who does that? I may actually still have that replay too, I think.

Against the AI when I know the timings and play style before I start the game I play to a much higher standard but in ladder literally anything from my opponent is enough to throw me off, and once I fall behind as a result, it only gets worse.
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
BittenByIdra
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Sweden32 Posts
July 20 2011 23:54 GMT
#5
This do actually bring up some interesting points, and I will probably play around some with it or atleast a modified version of it. Kind of a combination of this and just playing a more queen-heavy strategy, but I like the idea of not beeing(and seeing the queen as a injection "only"* unit) dependent of the injects as much as Zerg usually are in the gameplay as it is right now.

I don't really see myself as a high level player, and since I just started trying to play 1on1 a bit more seriously, it's hard to say, but I guess I'm around diamond-masterish(placement had me in Platinum after placement and the league-lock went right on a day after I placed, have been smashing all opponents from plat/gold so far tho..) level.
If I get some thoughts or anything about this I'll defo let you know :-)

*I don't think anyone sees it as a unit just for that, but focus tend to lie on the injects.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 51m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 288
Nina 198
RuFF_SC2 134
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 137
yabsab 85
Icarus 7
LuMiX 1
Dota 2
febbydoto25
Counter-Strike
Fnx 2014
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor204
Other Games
summit1g10016
tarik_tv6270
JimRising 765
fl0m399
ViBE177
ProTech54
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV30
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH273
• davetesta43
• practicex 5
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki28
• Pr0nogo 3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler59
League of Legends
• Doublelift4358
• masondota21007
Other Games
• Scarra1104
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
7h 51m
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
9h 51m
WardiTV European League
9h 51m
BSL: ProLeague
15h 51m
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
1d 21h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.