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On April 21 2011 05:00 iCCup.Nove wrote:
You act as if the NASL would just be content with anything the player would say as an excuse. The reason Naniwa, MC, and probably White-ra if he kept a little more in contact was due to Dreamhack. All three players were there which led to the scheduling problems. Imagine if the rules weren't so elastic.
The day Tim is supposed to play against MC he tells NASL his mother has died. What is NASL really supposed to do? I do believe NASL attempts to reschedule as best as possible but again, due to their tight casting schedule sometimes it's just best/easiest to just reward no one as the loser. Again, the players who missed their games were all out of their country. It's totally different having that proof and doing something similar to calling in sick at work.
And while trying to disprove the main argument at hand, you just exactly showed why the current way of dealing with things (-2 for bad excuse and 0 for ''good'' excuse) is terribly flawed. If we just kept it as ''you lost thus you get 0 points'', whatever the reason for losing might be, then the system would be working correctly, currently it is not.
If you want to put in place some arbitrary system where you decide if the player had a good reason or not, at least make it have an impact on the money they put in, not their standing.
On April 21 2011 05:24 BeanerBurrito wrote:
i'd say what happened was that they fucked up, don't want to say they fucked up, will brush this under the rug, then fix the problem next season
I dont want to sound rude or anything, but just like it happened in multiple other incidents regarding the NASL, it really looks like this once again.
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On April 21 2011 06:01 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 05:24 BeanerBurrito wrote:
i'd say what happened was that they fucked up, don't want to say they fucked up, will brush this under the rug, then fix the problem next season
I dont want to sound rude or anything, but just like it happened in multiple other incidents regarding the NASL, it really looks like this once again.
It would be quite sad if they did this, again, especially with something that skews the results by quite a lot. If it was a small little thing that wouldn't really affect the outcome, then so be it, but this has the potential to affect the top 5 players that advance easily. Sweeping shit under the rug is probably one of the worst things they can do. It would definitely have me rethink whether or not I want to continue paying for a season pass, especially if they aren't listening to community feedback or fixing flaws in their program.
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It's not just the players that get hurt, but the fans who want to watch these matches too. I know they say they have strict deadlines that need to be followed, but I sometimes wonder why. These matches can be played between now and the end of the season.
Playing the games at a later date is easy to set up, but now you need to put some production value into them. Why not set aside one day a month for makeup games. The production value is still there, the players get to play and the fans get to watch. Of course a valid reason still needs to be given and NASL needs to work a date into their schedule, but it seems like wins for alot of people involved.
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On April 21 2011 04:49 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely. dude what are you saying? you are completely missing his point let's say there is 1 more match left in group play. tim is on the edge of qualifying. he has 8 points. he will qualify for sure as long as he doesn't lose 0-2 or 1-2 in his next match, which would leave him with 6 or 7 points bill has 5 points. he could possibly qualify if tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-0. he could tie if tim loses 1-2 and he wins 2-0, or tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-1. tim calls in saying he's stuck at airport. so he is awarded 0 points. he instantly qualifies, fuck bill. .... don't you see the problem here? and this situation can already possibly arise thanks to what they did with MC and naniwa (wtf was the deal with naniwa anyways that was never adequately explained)
I was about to write this off with a mental note saying I just don't care THAT much so this discussion is not for me. However after I read your example I must say I agree. The flaw at hand here is way over the top to big not to consider.
I love the NASL man but they need to respond to criticisms a bit better imo.
Off topic: Any word on offering vods in lower quality? That's a big issue for me and many others
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Wow, I didn't realize that this was such a big deal (as in I barely even heard about it and didn't really form an opinion)...this is clearly a big problem :< This system rewards players for not playing whether their excuses are true or not (obviously in this case it was true), and it appears that the system can be gamed in this case...
While the tournament's games etc. are great, this is a major flaw and I hope the NASL organizers can work out a better system--many good ones have been proposed in this thread already, in fact ^^ Would be sad to see such an awesome tournament be bogged down by this type of arrangement.
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On April 21 2011 06:17 Character wrote:
It's not just the players that get hurt, but the fans who want to watch these matches too. I know they say they have strict deadlines that need to be followed, but I sometimes wonder why. These matches can be played between now and the end of the season.
Playing the games at a later date is easy to set up, but now you need to put some production value into them. Why not set aside one day a month for makeup games. The production value is still there, the players get to play and the fans get to watch. Of course a valid reason still needs to be given and NASL needs to work a date into their schedule, but it seems like wins for alot of people involved.
I semi-agree with you. On the one hand, a player can come up with an excuse if they are not ready for the match, but on the other it helps the viewers and players. NASL only broadcasts on 5/7 days of the week, so those 2 other days can be used as "emergecy" days. It doesn't seem fair to the casters though, since they'll never be getting breaks if they have to keep rescheduling.
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On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't. Wouldn't that leave their system very open to abuse then? It wouldn't be that hard for someone to come up with some believable excuse, miss their match that they know they were going to lose and come out on top with no points lost. It's quite understandable that not everyone is going to be able to make every one of their games, but missing 3 big ones so far hasn't been very good for the NASL. Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. It just doesn't seem fair to me that Nani is ahead of Axslav, DDE, Moonglade, Haypro in his group by doing nothing. Same with MC. Again, I'm not 100% sure how it will all work out in the end, but if Nani and MC move on in their groups because of that one match that they missed that benefited them then I would be extremely irritated.
These are professional Starcraft 2 pro gamers, not sketchy people trying to cheat their way through a bracket. They want to play the games, they want to win them and they want to get their points.
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On April 21 2011 10:58 Biigfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:On April 21 2011 02:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't. Wouldn't that leave their system very open to abuse then? It wouldn't be that hard for someone to come up with some believable excuse, miss their match that they know they were going to lose and come out on top with no points lost. It's quite understandable that not everyone is going to be able to make every one of their games, but missing 3 big ones so far hasn't been very good for the NASL. Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. It just doesn't seem fair to me that Nani is ahead of Axslav, DDE, Moonglade, Haypro in his group by doing nothing. Same with MC. Again, I'm not 100% sure how it will all work out in the end, but if Nani and MC move on in their groups because of that one match that they missed that benefited them then I would be extremely irritated. These are professional Starcraft 2 pro gamers, not sketchy people trying to cheat their way through a bracket. They want to play the games, they want to win them and they want to get their points.
Yeah I mean, its not like professional starcraft player ever cheated in order to win even smaller amounts right ?
/sarcasm
People have cheated for way less, and by cheating I mean going as far as hacking, the terrible system in place with NASL just requires you to tell the admins that you have something else ''worthy'' to do ahead not to take a loss...
I dont understand how anyone could justify that a player would be ahead of someone who lost his game because he didnt attend his match.... just think about it for more then 3 seconds and youll figure out it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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The problem here has nothing to do with the system in place for dealing with no-shows, that is irrelevant. What is the problem here is that the system operates in such a way that you can both lose and gain points for losses and wins, which is fucking stupid.
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Canada8033 Posts
On April 21 2011 10:58 Biigfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:On April 21 2011 02:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't. Wouldn't that leave their system very open to abuse then? It wouldn't be that hard for someone to come up with some believable excuse, miss their match that they know they were going to lose and come out on top with no points lost. It's quite understandable that not everyone is going to be able to make every one of their games, but missing 3 big ones so far hasn't been very good for the NASL. Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. It just doesn't seem fair to me that Nani is ahead of Axslav, DDE, Moonglade, Haypro in his group by doing nothing. Same with MC. Again, I'm not 100% sure how it will all work out in the end, but if Nani and MC move on in their groups because of that one match that they missed that benefited them then I would be extremely irritated. These are professional Starcraft 2 pro gamers, not sketchy people trying to cheat their way through a bracket. They want to play the games, they want to win them and they want to get their points.
It's happened before.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108352
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"They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect."
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
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Walkover games with good excuse give 0 while losing a match give you -2?
Seriously?
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On April 21 2011 06:01 TurpinOS wrote:
If you want to put in place some arbitrary system where you decide if the player had a good reason or not, at least make it have an impact on the money they put in, not their standing.
Yep. All no-shows should get the -2 points. The no-show monetary penalty is where they can use their judgement.
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On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:
They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
And for Brat_OK, Strelok & July, apparently the rules are:
Opponent misses his match suddenly = +2
Opponent misses his match with advanced notice or communication = 0
How is this fair for Brat_OK and Strelok? Both were ready to play their match, yet get zero points, just like MC and Naiwia.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On April 22 2011 00:15 Hammurabio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:
They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
And for Brat_OK, Strelok & July, apparently the rules are: Opponent misses his match suddenly = +2 Opponent misses his match with advanced notice or communication = 0 How is this fair for Brat_OK and Strelok? Both were ready to play their match, yet get zero points, just like MC and Naiwia.
Why are you asking me? I don't make the NASL rules and I never said they were fair, just that they were firm.
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On April 21 2011 15:41 NASL-Kronos wrote:
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
I don't get how you can say "What's done is done," when 8 players are being punished for playing their matches while 2 players got rewarded for missing their match. It is their fault that they missed their match, but everyone's just like "Oh well! We'll sweep this under the rug!" It makes absolutely no sense.
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Lol, this is getting ridicolous. I was already talking with some friends how NASL was being handled badly and one of my friends brought this up. I can't believe theres such a obvious flaw in the system.
Or is anyone like Xeris willing to explain the logic behind the system?
And before anyone says ''Well, they are all pro players, I don't think they would abuse it.'', let me remind you that there has already been numerous cases of pro players in Starcraft cheating. In the pro korean scene and in the foreign scene.
And not just in e-sports, there are athletes all around the world with much more to lose caught cheating all the time.
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On April 21 2011 15:41 NASL-Kronos wrote:
"They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect."
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
this kind of attitude and failure to acknowledge inherent flaws with your rules (and your inconsistency in applying them) only contributes to a growing lack of respect for NASL
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Its funny because one of the reasons why they prerecord is to reduce match fixing. Yet their noshow policy is abusable for matchfixing.
Say your PvT sucks. Theres only 2 terrans in your division. Win your other 7 matches, noshow the two Terran matches, and you are guarenteed to advance. In fact you could probably advance with only 4 or 5 wins because you wont rack up as many negative points as players who showed up to all their matches.
They should give -2 points for no showing with communication, -2 points and a fine for no showing without communication. It boggles my mind that a player is not punished for being a noshow.
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On April 21 2011 15:41 NASL-Kronos wrote:
"They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect."
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
Uh, Chill later backed out on this statement - he originally thought that losing players got 0 points, not -2.
I think the thread consensus is not that it's fine now. The firm rule should be that all no-shows get -2.
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EPT
