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Calgary26003 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:55 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail. The difference between White-Ra and MC is that MC's was a 100% unavoidable situation, MC's plane got delayed (because of visa problems of HuK or something) and he was stuck in Turkey. There's literally nothing he could have done about it. We gave every opportunity to Ra to play his match in a big window when he was clearly already finished with the DH tournament, and he stopped communication.
How is Naniwa in MC's boat instead of White-Ra's then? O_o
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I mentioned this in the other MC thread, but I view MC's situation like me being late to the office meeting because of traffic. Just because I called my boss and said "I'm going to be 15 minutes late because of traffic," doesn't make it ok for me to be late. It is still my fault. I should have accounted for the possibility of traffic. I should have left earlier from my house to make it to the office and I didn't.
Maybe he should have accounted for his plane maybe crashing, and him survivng, and maybe having to rehab over a 6 month period prior to playing his games. Your above point only works for a slacker that uses that as an excuse. Normal people may run into unknown morning road maintenance and show up late for work once. You dont always have time to book ahead and account for all possible delays. Needless to say, this isnt even the real issue. The issue only lies in the fact that losing = negative points, while not playing = no penalty (with valid excuse). Maybe they should just do it off pure record, with your +/- coming from how many games you beat your opponent by (ie: you win 2-0, youre +2, you win 2-1, youre +1). That way the loser is penalized with a loss, and the tie breakers can be settled based on +/-.
Edit* you wouldnt take a -1 or -2 for losing obviously.
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On April 21 2011 04:18 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote + I mentioned this in the other MC thread, but I view MC's situation like me being late to the office meeting because of traffic. Just because I called my boss and said "I'm going to be 15 minutes late because of traffic," doesn't make it ok for me to be late. It is still my fault. I should have accounted for the possibility of traffic. I should have left earlier from my house to make it to the office and I didn't. Maybe he should have accounted for his plane maybe crashing, and him survivng, and maybe having to rehab over a 6 month period prior to playing his games. Your above point only works for a slacker that uses that as an excuse. Normal people may run into unknown morning road maintenance and show up late for work once. You dont always have time to book ahead and account for all possible delays. Needless to say, this isnt even the real issue. The issue only lies in the fact that losing = negative points, while not playing = no penalty (with valid excuse). Maybe they should just do it off pure record, with your +/- coming from how many games you beat your opponent by (ie: you win 2-0, youre +2, you win 2-1, youre +1). That way the loser is penalized with a loss, and the tie breakers can be settled based on +/-. Edit* you wouldnt take a -1 or -2 for losing obviously.
You're just snowballing this into ridiculousness. The BIGGER issue in all of this is the precedent that it sets. What if Moonglade calls and says he's trapped in an airport, or his Internet is down, or he's locked out of his house for whatever reason? He's possibly just out with friends or hanging out with Kelly. In MC's case, it seems apparent he was actually stuck at the airport. But why? That might be his fault too. We don't know. But giving him this option means that in the future people might try to bend rules.
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It's incredibly dumb and the huge flaw in it was immediately brought up by multiple people, but apparently ignored.
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On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect.
While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well.
I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
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On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
dude what are you saying? you are completely missing his point
let's say there is 1 more match left in group play.
tim is on the edge of qualifying. he has 8 points. he will qualify for sure as long as he doesn't lose 0-2 or 1-2 in his next match, which would leave him with 6 or 7 points
bill has 5 points. he could possibly qualify if tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-0. he could tie if tim loses 1-2 and he wins 2-0, or tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-1.
tim calls in saying he's stuck at airport. so he is awarded 0 points.
he instantly qualifies, fuck bill.
.... don't you see the problem here?
and this situation can already possibly arise thanks to what they did with MC and naniwa (wtf was the deal with naniwa anyways that was never adequately explained)
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On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
You're putting too much trust into the players. I'm not saying the players currently in the tournament are liars and would do anything that benefits them, but we have seen it in the past with Brood War. You simply cannot trust the players 100% and assume they would "do the right thing" in all scenarios, because it will eventually backfire on you.
Edit - Naniwa's deal was explained by Incontrol in a VOD I just watched. What happened was he was tired and asked Strelok/NASL for some time to rest. Strelok agreed and then they found Naniwa laddering instead of resting (supposedly?). Strelok was given the choice of a win or to play. I think Strelok took the win. The whole Naniwa thing was just a bunch of silliness.
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On April 21 2011 04:49 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely. You're putting too much trust into the players. I'm not saying the players currently in the tournament are liars and would do anything that benefits them, but we have seen it in the past with Brood War. You simply cannot put 100% trust on the players "to do the right thing," because it will eventually backfire on you.
it's more than that anyways. it's what already happened with MC and naniwa. a player who lost the round that naniwa and MC skipped will be behind them in standings even if they tie with them in every other round
Edit - Naniwa's deal was explained by Incontrol in a VOD I just watched. What happened was he was tired and asked Strelok/NASL for some time to rest. Strelok agreed and then they found Naniwa laddering instead of resting (supposedly?). Strelok was given the choice of a win or to play. I think Strelok took the win. The whole Naniwa thing was just a bunch of silliness.
that doesn't really explain why that was acceptable. i mean it's either breaking the rules or it isn't...
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its just the point system that is dumb, negative numbers should be given ONLY for no-shows & post-pones. People should always go up in their scores, or stay the same if 2-0'ed, not DOWN.
NHL rules fit perfectly :
Two points are awarded for a win (including in overtime or shootout) [read 2-0 or 2-1], one point for a loss in overtime or shootout [1-2], and no points for a loss in regulation time [0-2].
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On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
You say that, but ultimately with $50,000 on the line, the temptation is there, people have cheated before for less. The NASL recognizes that the possibility of cheating must be eliminated, as such I would venture a guess that that is why the pre-record everything (in addition to adding post production work).
Your argument is along the line of, well these are all pro-gamers, and as pro-gamers they know what they are getting into etc etc. Pro-atheletes are tempted to cheat at all levels of sports, be it e-sports or regular sports.
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On April 21 2011 04:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:49 Joementum wrote:On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely. You're putting too much trust into the players. I'm not saying the players currently in the tournament are liars and would do anything that benefits them, but we have seen it in the past with Brood War. You simply cannot put 100% trust on the players "to do the right thing," because it will eventually backfire on you. it's more than that anyways. it's what already happened with MC and naniwa. a player who lost the round that naniwa and MC skipped will be behind them in standings even if they tie with them in every other round Show nested quote +
Edit - Naniwa's deal was explained by Incontrol in a VOD I just watched. What happened was he was tired and asked Strelok/NASL for some time to rest. Strelok agreed and then they found Naniwa laddering instead of resting (supposedly?). Strelok was given the choice of a win or to play. I think Strelok took the win. The whole Naniwa thing was just a bunch of silliness.
that doesn't really explain why that was acceptable. i mean it's either breaking the rules or it isn't...
I know. I agree with you 100% completely. I've brought up both points in the first page of the thread. I guess right now I'm just waiting for an official NASL answer. I paid my $25 for an awesome and fair Tournament for all players. If what I'm getting is some Tournament where 2 players are automatically ahead of 8 other individuals because they didn't provide entertainment, then I refuse to purchase another season ticket. This might be the White-Ra fan boy in me talking, but it's true.
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yeah I can tell you know I just wanted to point it out, I am a fan of fairness as well. I don't like poking and prodding at flaws of nasl but this one isn't simply aesthetic.
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You act as if the NASL would just be content with anything the player would say as an excuse. The reason Naniwa, MC, and probably White-ra if he kept a little more in contact was due to Dreamhack. All three players were there which led to the scheduling problems. Imagine if the rules weren't so elastic.
The day Tim is supposed to play against MC he tells NASL his mother has died. What is NASL really supposed to do? I do believe NASL attempts to reschedule as best as possible but again, due to their tight casting schedule sometimes it's just best/easiest to just reward no one as the loser. Again, the players who missed their games were all out of their country. It's totally different having that proof and doing something similar to calling in sick at work.
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imo, the only way to fix this problem is to award every one who misses their match, for whatever reason, an equivalent penalty. why should reasons and/or notice determine anything?
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It seem ok to me, its just that if u dont communicate ur fucked and its good
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i'd say what happened was that they fucked up, don't want to say they fucked up, will brush this under the rug, then fix the problem next season
i don't really see any other reasoning if three players can do the same thing(miss their match), and only one of them is punished by way of point removal
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In any situation involving the potential for financial gain, rules will be tested and abused by the players involved. That's just a fact of a competitive environment. I've seen it in real sports, and I've seen it in managing LAN and online leagues and tournaments.
I think, while well intentioned, the process wasn't completely thought out ahead of time to make abuse lessened over the course of their event. It's going to be tough if they have to ride out the entire group play in this type of format, because you cannot change it mid-event.
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I agree that since this is the first week of the new system they should be more lenient. Especially towards White-Ra! Such a manner guy!
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They should just make it -2 for a loss with advanced notice and -3/-4 for a loss without advanced warning. Fortunately it doesn't matter in a lot of situations, but it still kinda blows. Especially since Strelok is potentially harmed because his opponent didn't show (he's 1-0 at 0 points instead of 1 or 2 points).
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On April 21 2011 05:24 divito wrote:
In any situation involving the potential for financial gain, rules will be tested and abused by the players involved. That's just a fact of a competitive environment. I've seen it in real sports, and I've seen it in managing LAN and online leagues and tournaments.
I think, while well intentioned, the process wasn't completely thought out ahead of time to make abuse lessened over the course of their event. It's going to be tough if they have to ride out the entire group play in this type of format, because you cannot change it mid-event.
The only reasonable thing to do right now is give MC/Nani both -2 points, the winning players +2 points and treat the rest of the players the same way throughout the tournament. Next season, they can decide what to do with a revised rule. The way it stands right now is completely unfair.
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EPT
