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This is just something that no one has bothered to answer, or I can't find the answer to exactly, so forgive me if I'm being an idiot!
Why are MC and Naniwa being given 0 points in their group for not playing their two games, but White-Ra is being given -2 points?
The way I understand this is;
MC missed his match because he had to attend Dreamhack and *insert whole delayed plane business here.* MC is currently at 0 points in the standings and Bratok is currently at 0 points.
Naniwa missed his match because he was tired, but was found laddering after not playing his match. Strelok then took the win, I'm assuming. Nani is currently at 0 points in the standings and so is his Strelok.
White-Ra missed his match because he had to attend Dreamhack. July took the win after waiting for him for 4 hours. White-Ra is currently at -2 points in the standings and July is at +2 points.
Why is it that White-Ra lost points for not attending, but MC and Nani didn't? Also, why did July win points for his walkover, but Bratok and Strelok didn't? I don't know exactly how this whole points situation will work out in the end, but right now it is extremely unfair for almost everyone involved.
If we're going to be following the White-Ra/July example, then Bratok and Strelok should both be +2 and tied for 1st in both of their groups. MC, White-Ra and Naniwa should all be tied for 10th in their groups, but instead we have White-Ra at 10th while MC & Naniwa both sit at 6th in their groups.
Them being in 6th actually puts them ahead of some players that attended their matches. If the NASL is going to be giving players 0 points for not attending their matches, then it might just be in the player's best interest to make up some stupid excuse to miss a match instead of losing 2 points.
Any official answer from the NASL on this and what's being done about it? Are White-Ra and July going to be at 0/0 or are Bratok, Strelok, MC & Naniwa going to be put at +2, +2, -2, -2, respectively?
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From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't.
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On April 21 2011 02:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't.
Wouldn't that leave their system very open to abuse then? It wouldn't be that hard for someone to come up with some believable excuse, miss their match that they know they were going to lose and come out on top with no points lost.
It's quite understandable that not everyone is going to be able to make every one of their games, but missing 3 big ones so far hasn't been very good for the NASL. Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. It just doesn't seem fair to me that Nani is ahead of Axslav, DDE, Moonglade, Haypro in his group by doing nothing. Same with MC.
Again, I'm not 100% sure how it will all work out in the end, but if Nani and MC move on in their groups because of that one match that they missed that benefited them then I would be extremely irritated.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match.
They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect.
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From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail.
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On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
But that still isn't fair for the players that actually made their matches. MC and Naniwa are now each ahead of 4 players that played their matches. Those 8 players were punished for playing their matches and providing entertainment value for us while MC and Naniwa were rewarded for doing nothing.
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A system where a player can actually benefit from *not* playing his games is not what I would label as "perfect". It was "functional" to a greater extent than the current system since the current one makes no sense.
But yeah, it was something about White-Ra not contacting the NASL after his finals and only writing a short text asking for a postpone of his games when he got to the finals (which caused the problem), even though he was told beforehand that this wasnt possible.
A bit offtopic: Has White-Ra ever adressed what happened? Not the whole -2 points thing which is just NASL messing around with their system, but what happened that made him not play?
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On April 21 2011 03:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail.
Yeah.
I heard about that too
I'm sure there's a reason, but it just doesn't sound fair
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On April 21 2011 03:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail.
I believe there were some qualms about him attending an afterparty immediately following dreamhack. July had agreed to wait for white ra for several hours but he did not respond to numerous attempts to communicate with him at the time. July took the walkover, whitera was penalized for lack of communication. The rules have since been altered to disallow players from making the walkover call. Seems fair enough.
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Fairness Schmairness. There are rules. Without rules we would be living in an anarchy. And in regards to tournaments, it would not be a good tournament.
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Really it's no problem. Him can still make 2 spot in group so it's no trouble.
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On April 21 2011 03:17 Gummy wrote:
Fairness Schmairness. There are rules. Without rules we would be living in an anarchy. And in regards to tournaments, it would not be a good tournament.
Which post are you referring to?
On April 21 2011 03:26 Alejandrisha wrote:
Really it's no problem. Him can still make 2 spot in group so it's no trouble.
Which player are you referring to? And what do you mean no problem? How would you feel if you played your game on time, lost and are now in 10th place while a player that couldn't show up is in 6th? As a player, I would be pissed. It's not fair to them at all.
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On April 21 2011 03:28 Joementum wrote:
How would you feel if you played your game on time, lost and are now in 10th place while a player that couldn't show up is in 6th? As a player, I would be pissed. It's not fair to them at all.
If he is 6th then he won some of the matches he played. Therefore he deserves to be in 6th place.
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On April 21 2011 03:49 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:28 Joementum wrote:
How would you feel if you played your game on time, lost and are now in 10th place while a player that couldn't show up is in 6th? As a player, I would be pissed. It's not fair to them at all. If he is 6th then he won some of the matches he played. Therefore he deserves to be in 6th place.
I'm talking about right now. If you go to NASL.tv and look at the standings, the players that didn't play are being put ahead of the players that lost. Like I mentioned before, I don't know how it will exactly work out in the end, but if it goes to a tie breaker situation for 5th place in the group and MC/Nani win in that tie breaker because of not playing their first match, it would be pretty bad.
By your logic, MC/Nani don't deserve to be in 6th place right now.
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On April 21 2011 03:49 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:28 Joementum wrote:
How would you feel if you played your game on time, lost and are now in 10th place while a player that couldn't show up is in 6th? As a player, I would be pissed. It's not fair to them at all. If he is 6th then he won some of the matches he played. Therefore he deserves to be in 6th place.
unless it was the first round
rules cant change mid season
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On April 21 2011 03:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail.
The difference between White-Ra and MC is that MC's was a 100% unavoidable situation, MC's plane got delayed (because of visa problems of HuK or something) and he was stuck in Turkey. There's literally nothing he could have done about it. We gave every opportunity to Ra to play his match in a big window when he was clearly already finished with the DH tournament, and he stopped communication.
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On April 21 2011 03:55 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail. The difference between White-Ra and MC is that MC's was a 100% unavoidable situation, MC's plane got delayed (because of visa problems of HuK or something) and he was stuck in Turkey. There's literally nothing he could have done about it. We gave every opportunity to Ra to play his match in a big window when he was clearly already finished with the DH tournament, and he stopped communication.
What about Naniwa then? MC's situation is debatable. Planes get delayed quite often. He could have scheduled his plane ride out of Turkey differently so even if it got delayed, he would make his match. What about all the players that played their matches and are now lower in the rankings than Naniwa/MC because of actually playing their matches?
Edit - I mentioned this in the other MC thread, but I view MC's situation like me being late to the office meeting because of traffic. Just because I called my boss and said "I'm going to be 15 minutes late because of traffic," doesn't make it ok for me to be late. It is still my fault. I should have accounted for the possibility of traffic. I should have left earlier from my house to make it to the office and I didn't.
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On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect.
Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match.
F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect.
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On April 21 2011 03:55 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail. The difference between White-Ra and MC is that MC's was a 100% unavoidable situation, MC's plane got delayed (because of visa problems of HuK or something) and he was stuck in Turkey. There's literally nothing he could have done about it. We gave every opportunity to Ra to play his match in a big window when he was clearly already finished with the DH tournament, and he stopped communication.
Yeah, this is the difference. It should be pretty obvious. We don't -really- know if MC's was a 100% unavoidable situation, but that's the understanding.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect.
I didn't know players lost points for losing a match. I assumed they got 0 - the same as having a justified excuse for missing a match. In that case, yes, this is a major flaw in their system.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:55 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
From what I remember, White-Ra had informed NASL that he couldn't make it, and they had even attempted to get DreamHack to set up a PC for him to play, although to no avail. The difference between White-Ra and MC is that MC's was a 100% unavoidable situation, MC's plane got delayed (because of visa problems of HuK or something) and he was stuck in Turkey. There's literally nothing he could have done about it. We gave every opportunity to Ra to play his match in a big window when he was clearly already finished with the DH tournament, and he stopped communication.
How is Naniwa in MC's boat instead of White-Ra's then? O_o
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I mentioned this in the other MC thread, but I view MC's situation like me being late to the office meeting because of traffic. Just because I called my boss and said "I'm going to be 15 minutes late because of traffic," doesn't make it ok for me to be late. It is still my fault. I should have accounted for the possibility of traffic. I should have left earlier from my house to make it to the office and I didn't.
Maybe he should have accounted for his plane maybe crashing, and him survivng, and maybe having to rehab over a 6 month period prior to playing his games. Your above point only works for a slacker that uses that as an excuse. Normal people may run into unknown morning road maintenance and show up late for work once. You dont always have time to book ahead and account for all possible delays. Needless to say, this isnt even the real issue. The issue only lies in the fact that losing = negative points, while not playing = no penalty (with valid excuse). Maybe they should just do it off pure record, with your +/- coming from how many games you beat your opponent by (ie: you win 2-0, youre +2, you win 2-1, youre +1). That way the loser is penalized with a loss, and the tie breakers can be settled based on +/-.
Edit* you wouldnt take a -1 or -2 for losing obviously.
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On April 21 2011 04:18 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote + I mentioned this in the other MC thread, but I view MC's situation like me being late to the office meeting because of traffic. Just because I called my boss and said "I'm going to be 15 minutes late because of traffic," doesn't make it ok for me to be late. It is still my fault. I should have accounted for the possibility of traffic. I should have left earlier from my house to make it to the office and I didn't. Maybe he should have accounted for his plane maybe crashing, and him survivng, and maybe having to rehab over a 6 month period prior to playing his games. Your above point only works for a slacker that uses that as an excuse. Normal people may run into unknown morning road maintenance and show up late for work once. You dont always have time to book ahead and account for all possible delays. Needless to say, this isnt even the real issue. The issue only lies in the fact that losing = negative points, while not playing = no penalty (with valid excuse). Maybe they should just do it off pure record, with your +/- coming from how many games you beat your opponent by (ie: you win 2-0, youre +2, you win 2-1, youre +1). That way the loser is penalized with a loss, and the tie breakers can be settled based on +/-. Edit* you wouldnt take a -1 or -2 for losing obviously.
You're just snowballing this into ridiculousness. The BIGGER issue in all of this is the precedent that it sets. What if Moonglade calls and says he's trapped in an airport, or his Internet is down, or he's locked out of his house for whatever reason? He's possibly just out with friends or hanging out with Kelly. In MC's case, it seems apparent he was actually stuck at the airport. But why? That might be his fault too. We don't know. But giving him this option means that in the future people might try to bend rules.
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It's incredibly dumb and the huge flaw in it was immediately brought up by multiple people, but apparently ignored.
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On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect.
While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well.
I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
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On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
dude what are you saying? you are completely missing his point
let's say there is 1 more match left in group play.
tim is on the edge of qualifying. he has 8 points. he will qualify for sure as long as he doesn't lose 0-2 or 1-2 in his next match, which would leave him with 6 or 7 points
bill has 5 points. he could possibly qualify if tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-0. he could tie if tim loses 1-2 and he wins 2-0, or tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-1.
tim calls in saying he's stuck at airport. so he is awarded 0 points.
he instantly qualifies, fuck bill.
.... don't you see the problem here?
and this situation can already possibly arise thanks to what they did with MC and naniwa (wtf was the deal with naniwa anyways that was never adequately explained)
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On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
You're putting too much trust into the players. I'm not saying the players currently in the tournament are liars and would do anything that benefits them, but we have seen it in the past with Brood War. You simply cannot trust the players 100% and assume they would "do the right thing" in all scenarios, because it will eventually backfire on you.
Edit - Naniwa's deal was explained by Incontrol in a VOD I just watched. What happened was he was tired and asked Strelok/NASL for some time to rest. Strelok agreed and then they found Naniwa laddering instead of resting (supposedly?). Strelok was given the choice of a win or to play. I think Strelok took the win. The whole Naniwa thing was just a bunch of silliness.
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On April 21 2011 04:49 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely. You're putting too much trust into the players. I'm not saying the players currently in the tournament are liars and would do anything that benefits them, but we have seen it in the past with Brood War. You simply cannot put 100% trust on the players "to do the right thing," because it will eventually backfire on you.
it's more than that anyways. it's what already happened with MC and naniwa. a player who lost the round that naniwa and MC skipped will be behind them in standings even if they tie with them in every other round
Edit - Naniwa's deal was explained by Incontrol in a VOD I just watched. What happened was he was tired and asked Strelok/NASL for some time to rest. Strelok agreed and then they found Naniwa laddering instead of resting (supposedly?). Strelok was given the choice of a win or to play. I think Strelok took the win. The whole Naniwa thing was just a bunch of silliness.
that doesn't really explain why that was acceptable. i mean it's either breaking the rules or it isn't...
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its just the point system that is dumb, negative numbers should be given ONLY for no-shows & post-pones. People should always go up in their scores, or stay the same if 2-0'ed, not DOWN.
NHL rules fit perfectly :
Two points are awarded for a win (including in overtime or shootout) [read 2-0 or 2-1], one point for a loss in overtime or shootout [1-2], and no points for a loss in regulation time [0-2].
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On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely.
You say that, but ultimately with $50,000 on the line, the temptation is there, people have cheated before for less. The NASL recognizes that the possibility of cheating must be eliminated, as such I would venture a guess that that is why the pre-record everything (in addition to adding post production work).
Your argument is along the line of, well these are all pro-gamers, and as pro-gamers they know what they are getting into etc etc. Pro-atheletes are tempted to cheat at all levels of sports, be it e-sports or regular sports.
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On April 21 2011 04:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:49 Joementum wrote:On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely. You're putting too much trust into the players. I'm not saying the players currently in the tournament are liars and would do anything that benefits them, but we have seen it in the past with Brood War. You simply cannot put 100% trust on the players "to do the right thing," because it will eventually backfire on you. it's more than that anyways. it's what already happened with MC and naniwa. a player who lost the round that naniwa and MC skipped will be behind them in standings even if they tie with them in every other round Show nested quote +
Edit - Naniwa's deal was explained by Incontrol in a VOD I just watched. What happened was he was tired and asked Strelok/NASL for some time to rest. Strelok agreed and then they found Naniwa laddering instead of resting (supposedly?). Strelok was given the choice of a win or to play. I think Strelok took the win. The whole Naniwa thing was just a bunch of silliness.
that doesn't really explain why that was acceptable. i mean it's either breaking the rules or it isn't...
I know. I agree with you 100% completely. I've brought up both points in the first page of the thread. I guess right now I'm just waiting for an official NASL answer. I paid my $25 for an awesome and fair Tournament for all players. If what I'm getting is some Tournament where 2 players are automatically ahead of 8 other individuals because they didn't provide entertainment, then I refuse to purchase another season ticket. This might be the White-Ra fan boy in me talking, but it's true.
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yeah I can tell you know I just wanted to point it out, I am a fan of fairness as well. I don't like poking and prodding at flaws of nasl but this one isn't simply aesthetic.
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You act as if the NASL would just be content with anything the player would say as an excuse. The reason Naniwa, MC, and probably White-ra if he kept a little more in contact was due to Dreamhack. All three players were there which led to the scheduling problems. Imagine if the rules weren't so elastic.
The day Tim is supposed to play against MC he tells NASL his mother has died. What is NASL really supposed to do? I do believe NASL attempts to reschedule as best as possible but again, due to their tight casting schedule sometimes it's just best/easiest to just reward no one as the loser. Again, the players who missed their games were all out of their country. It's totally different having that proof and doing something similar to calling in sick at work.
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imo, the only way to fix this problem is to award every one who misses their match, for whatever reason, an equivalent penalty. why should reasons and/or notice determine anything?
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It seem ok to me, its just that if u dont communicate ur fucked and its good
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i'd say what happened was that they fucked up, don't want to say they fucked up, will brush this under the rug, then fix the problem next season
i don't really see any other reasoning if three players can do the same thing(miss their match), and only one of them is punished by way of point removal
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In any situation involving the potential for financial gain, rules will be tested and abused by the players involved. That's just a fact of a competitive environment. I've seen it in real sports, and I've seen it in managing LAN and online leagues and tournaments.
I think, while well intentioned, the process wasn't completely thought out ahead of time to make abuse lessened over the course of their event. It's going to be tough if they have to ride out the entire group play in this type of format, because you cannot change it mid-event.
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I agree that since this is the first week of the new system they should be more lenient. Especially towards White-Ra! Such a manner guy!
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They should just make it -2 for a loss with advanced notice and -3/-4 for a loss without advanced warning. Fortunately it doesn't matter in a lot of situations, but it still kinda blows. Especially since Strelok is potentially harmed because his opponent didn't show (he's 1-0 at 0 points instead of 1 or 2 points).
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On April 21 2011 05:24 divito wrote:
In any situation involving the potential for financial gain, rules will be tested and abused by the players involved. That's just a fact of a competitive environment. I've seen it in real sports, and I've seen it in managing LAN and online leagues and tournaments.
I think, while well intentioned, the process wasn't completely thought out ahead of time to make abuse lessened over the course of their event. It's going to be tough if they have to ride out the entire group play in this type of format, because you cannot change it mid-event.
The only reasonable thing to do right now is give MC/Nani both -2 points, the winning players +2 points and treat the rest of the players the same way throughout the tournament. Next season, they can decide what to do with a revised rule. The way it stands right now is completely unfair.
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On April 21 2011 05:00 iCCup.Nove wrote:
You act as if the NASL would just be content with anything the player would say as an excuse. The reason Naniwa, MC, and probably White-ra if he kept a little more in contact was due to Dreamhack. All three players were there which led to the scheduling problems. Imagine if the rules weren't so elastic.
The day Tim is supposed to play against MC he tells NASL his mother has died. What is NASL really supposed to do? I do believe NASL attempts to reschedule as best as possible but again, due to their tight casting schedule sometimes it's just best/easiest to just reward no one as the loser. Again, the players who missed their games were all out of their country. It's totally different having that proof and doing something similar to calling in sick at work.
And while trying to disprove the main argument at hand, you just exactly showed why the current way of dealing with things (-2 for bad excuse and 0 for ''good'' excuse) is terribly flawed. If we just kept it as ''you lost thus you get 0 points'', whatever the reason for losing might be, then the system would be working correctly, currently it is not.
If you want to put in place some arbitrary system where you decide if the player had a good reason or not, at least make it have an impact on the money they put in, not their standing.
On April 21 2011 05:24 BeanerBurrito wrote:
i'd say what happened was that they fucked up, don't want to say they fucked up, will brush this under the rug, then fix the problem next season
I dont want to sound rude or anything, but just like it happened in multiple other incidents regarding the NASL, it really looks like this once again.
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On April 21 2011 06:01 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 05:24 BeanerBurrito wrote:
i'd say what happened was that they fucked up, don't want to say they fucked up, will brush this under the rug, then fix the problem next season
I dont want to sound rude or anything, but just like it happened in multiple other incidents regarding the NASL, it really looks like this once again.
It would be quite sad if they did this, again, especially with something that skews the results by quite a lot. If it was a small little thing that wouldn't really affect the outcome, then so be it, but this has the potential to affect the top 5 players that advance easily. Sweeping shit under the rug is probably one of the worst things they can do. It would definitely have me rethink whether or not I want to continue paying for a season pass, especially if they aren't listening to community feedback or fixing flaws in their program.
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It's not just the players that get hurt, but the fans who want to watch these matches too. I know they say they have strict deadlines that need to be followed, but I sometimes wonder why. These matches can be played between now and the end of the season.
Playing the games at a later date is easy to set up, but now you need to put some production value into them. Why not set aside one day a month for makeup games. The production value is still there, the players get to play and the fans get to watch. Of course a valid reason still needs to be given and NASL needs to work a date into their schedule, but it seems like wins for alot of people involved.
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On April 21 2011 04:49 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 04:43 iCCup.Nove wrote:On April 21 2011 04:00 Bergys wrote:On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:
Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. They had firm rules: Miss your match suddenly = -2 Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0 Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect. Calling it a perfect system is really pushing it imo. It works I guess but by far the shittiest in any tournament so far. You should never be rewarded for missing a match. F.ex. Ace vs Stalife (not bashing on stalife but I think most would agree that Ace is a heavy favorite for the match) I don't really see any incentive for stalife to show up. Why take a high risk of getting -2 when you can just make up some excuse and get 0 points. If anything they should allow rescheduling if you have a reasonable excuse, but really I think the player who didn't show up should get -2 and give extra penalty points if you provided no valid reason. Having a system that's open to abuse is never perfect. While I understand why you are worried about this sort of abuse you do have to attempt to use some rationale. NASL said they were bringing 'The best players in the world', now wouldn't anyone who accepted the invite to the tournament realize that the chance of them getting paired with a better player highly likely? I would think so. Doesn't make sense for a player to try to lie to get out of the game. Sure, there is a lot of money on the line but as I stated earlier, they knew the player quality would be high. I do believe all three players who had scheduling problems were in regards to Dreamhack as well. I think the approach NASL uses is one that is meant to benefit the players more. They have such a tight casting schedule but the fact that they're interested in working things out for what's best for the players shouldn't be taken likely. dude what are you saying? you are completely missing his point let's say there is 1 more match left in group play. tim is on the edge of qualifying. he has 8 points. he will qualify for sure as long as he doesn't lose 0-2 or 1-2 in his next match, which would leave him with 6 or 7 points bill has 5 points. he could possibly qualify if tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-0. he could tie if tim loses 1-2 and he wins 2-0, or tim loses 0-2 and he wins 2-1. tim calls in saying he's stuck at airport. so he is awarded 0 points. he instantly qualifies, fuck bill. .... don't you see the problem here? and this situation can already possibly arise thanks to what they did with MC and naniwa (wtf was the deal with naniwa anyways that was never adequately explained)
I was about to write this off with a mental note saying I just don't care THAT much so this discussion is not for me. However after I read your example I must say I agree. The flaw at hand here is way over the top to big not to consider.
I love the NASL man but they need to respond to criticisms a bit better imo.
Off topic: Any word on offering vods in lower quality? That's a big issue for me and many others
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Wow, I didn't realize that this was such a big deal (as in I barely even heard about it and didn't really form an opinion)...this is clearly a big problem :< This system rewards players for not playing whether their excuses are true or not (obviously in this case it was true), and it appears that the system can be gamed in this case...
While the tournament's games etc. are great, this is a major flaw and I hope the NASL organizers can work out a better system--many good ones have been proposed in this thread already, in fact ^^ Would be sad to see such an awesome tournament be bogged down by this type of arrangement.
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On April 21 2011 06:17 Character wrote:
It's not just the players that get hurt, but the fans who want to watch these matches too. I know they say they have strict deadlines that need to be followed, but I sometimes wonder why. These matches can be played between now and the end of the season.
Playing the games at a later date is easy to set up, but now you need to put some production value into them. Why not set aside one day a month for makeup games. The production value is still there, the players get to play and the fans get to watch. Of course a valid reason still needs to be given and NASL needs to work a date into their schedule, but it seems like wins for alot of people involved.
I semi-agree with you. On the one hand, a player can come up with an excuse if they are not ready for the match, but on the other it helps the viewers and players. NASL only broadcasts on 5/7 days of the week, so those 2 other days can be used as "emergecy" days. It doesn't seem fair to the casters though, since they'll never be getting breaks if they have to keep rescheduling.
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On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't. Wouldn't that leave their system very open to abuse then? It wouldn't be that hard for someone to come up with some believable excuse, miss their match that they know they were going to lose and come out on top with no points lost. It's quite understandable that not everyone is going to be able to make every one of their games, but missing 3 big ones so far hasn't been very good for the NASL. Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. It just doesn't seem fair to me that Nani is ahead of Axslav, DDE, Moonglade, Haypro in his group by doing nothing. Same with MC. Again, I'm not 100% sure how it will all work out in the end, but if Nani and MC move on in their groups because of that one match that they missed that benefited them then I would be extremely irritated.
These are professional Starcraft 2 pro gamers, not sketchy people trying to cheat their way through a bracket. They want to play the games, they want to win them and they want to get their points.
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On April 21 2011 10:58 Biigfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:On April 21 2011 02:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't. Wouldn't that leave their system very open to abuse then? It wouldn't be that hard for someone to come up with some believable excuse, miss their match that they know they were going to lose and come out on top with no points lost. It's quite understandable that not everyone is going to be able to make every one of their games, but missing 3 big ones so far hasn't been very good for the NASL. Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. It just doesn't seem fair to me that Nani is ahead of Axslav, DDE, Moonglade, Haypro in his group by doing nothing. Same with MC. Again, I'm not 100% sure how it will all work out in the end, but if Nani and MC move on in their groups because of that one match that they missed that benefited them then I would be extremely irritated. These are professional Starcraft 2 pro gamers, not sketchy people trying to cheat their way through a bracket. They want to play the games, they want to win them and they want to get their points.
Yeah I mean, its not like professional starcraft player ever cheated in order to win even smaller amounts right ?
/sarcasm
People have cheated for way less, and by cheating I mean going as far as hacking, the terrible system in place with NASL just requires you to tell the admins that you have something else ''worthy'' to do ahead not to take a loss...
I dont understand how anyone could justify that a player would be ahead of someone who lost his game because he didnt attend his match.... just think about it for more then 3 seconds and youll figure out it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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The problem here has nothing to do with the system in place for dealing with no-shows, that is irrelevant. What is the problem here is that the system operates in such a way that you can both lose and gain points for losses and wins, which is fucking stupid.
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Canada8031 Posts
On April 21 2011 10:58 Biigfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 02:58 Joementum wrote:On April 21 2011 02:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
From what I could tell the difference is in communication. MC and Naniwa talked to NASL about their situation and White-Ra didn't. Wouldn't that leave their system very open to abuse then? It wouldn't be that hard for someone to come up with some believable excuse, miss their match that they know they were going to lose and come out on top with no points lost. It's quite understandable that not everyone is going to be able to make every one of their games, but missing 3 big ones so far hasn't been very good for the NASL. Either something needs to be done about the scheduling by loosening it up, or they need to create firm rules on what happens to a player when they miss their match. It just doesn't seem fair to me that Nani is ahead of Axslav, DDE, Moonglade, Haypro in his group by doing nothing. Same with MC. Again, I'm not 100% sure how it will all work out in the end, but if Nani and MC move on in their groups because of that one match that they missed that benefited them then I would be extremely irritated. These are professional Starcraft 2 pro gamers, not sketchy people trying to cheat their way through a bracket. They want to play the games, they want to win them and they want to get their points.
It's happened before.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108352
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"They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect."
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
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Walkover games with good excuse give 0 while losing a match give you -2?
Seriously?
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On April 21 2011 06:01 TurpinOS wrote:
If you want to put in place some arbitrary system where you decide if the player had a good reason or not, at least make it have an impact on the money they put in, not their standing.
Yep. All no-shows should get the -2 points. The no-show monetary penalty is where they can use their judgement.
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On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:
They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
And for Brat_OK, Strelok & July, apparently the rules are:
Opponent misses his match suddenly = +2
Opponent misses his match with advanced notice or communication = 0
How is this fair for Brat_OK and Strelok? Both were ready to play their match, yet get zero points, just like MC and Naiwia.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On April 22 2011 00:15 Hammurabio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 03:03 Chill wrote:
They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
And for Brat_OK, Strelok & July, apparently the rules are: Opponent misses his match suddenly = +2 Opponent misses his match with advanced notice or communication = 0 How is this fair for Brat_OK and Strelok? Both were ready to play their match, yet get zero points, just like MC and Naiwia.
Why are you asking me? I don't make the NASL rules and I never said they were fair, just that they were firm.
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On April 21 2011 15:41 NASL-Kronos wrote:
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
I don't get how you can say "What's done is done," when 8 players are being punished for playing their matches while 2 players got rewarded for missing their match. It is their fault that they missed their match, but everyone's just like "Oh well! We'll sweep this under the rug!" It makes absolutely no sense.
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Lol, this is getting ridicolous. I was already talking with some friends how NASL was being handled badly and one of my friends brought this up. I can't believe theres such a obvious flaw in the system.
Or is anyone like Xeris willing to explain the logic behind the system?
And before anyone says ''Well, they are all pro players, I don't think they would abuse it.'', let me remind you that there has already been numerous cases of pro players in Starcraft cheating. In the pro korean scene and in the foreign scene.
And not just in e-sports, there are athletes all around the world with much more to lose caught cheating all the time.
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On April 21 2011 15:41 NASL-Kronos wrote:
"They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect."
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
this kind of attitude and failure to acknowledge inherent flaws with your rules (and your inconsistency in applying them) only contributes to a growing lack of respect for NASL
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Its funny because one of the reasons why they prerecord is to reduce match fixing. Yet their noshow policy is abusable for matchfixing.
Say your PvT sucks. Theres only 2 terrans in your division. Win your other 7 matches, noshow the two Terran matches, and you are guarenteed to advance. In fact you could probably advance with only 4 or 5 wins because you wont rack up as many negative points as players who showed up to all their matches.
They should give -2 points for no showing with communication, -2 points and a fine for no showing without communication. It boggles my mind that a player is not punished for being a noshow.
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On April 21 2011 15:41 NASL-Kronos wrote:
"They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect."
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
Uh, Chill later backed out on this statement - he originally thought that losing players got 0 points, not -2.
I think the thread consensus is not that it's fine now. The firm rule should be that all no-shows get -2.
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uh oh this could have very serious implications. They really need to address this asap.
It's not even someone need to abuse this for complications to happen. It might happen unintentionally.
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This just keeps getting better and better. qxc misses his match because he was on spring break and gets -2 pts. His opponent, tt1, gets +2 pts.
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Their obviously avoiding the situation by omission. "What's done is done". If there are known flaws in the system why not better it? By making it "firm" it just leaves it open for more abuse.
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On April 21 2011 15:41 NASL-Kronos wrote:
"They had firm rules:
Miss your match suddenly = -2
Miss your match with advanced notice or communication = 0
Then everyone started bitching about the best games being missed and NASL tried to make everyone happy by changing the schedule and rules. They shouldn't have done that. The original system was perfect."
This is a good statement. What's done is done though.
You realize Chill took back that statement like 5 posts later? "What's done is done" is the worst thing you could possibly say. This is a serious flaw in the system.
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On April 23 2011 00:31 Joementum wrote:
This just keeps getting better and better. qxc misses his match because he was on spring break and gets -2 pts. His opponent, tt1, gets +2 pts.
Points from wins by Walkover:
TT1: +2
July: +2
Strelock: 0
Brat_OK: 0
I've emailed Xeris about this discrepancy.
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EPT
