• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:00
CEST 00:00
KST 07:00
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
$5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy2GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding3Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win0[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6
StarCraft 2
General
Quebec Clan still alive ? BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info
Tourneys
GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. BW General Discussion Gypsy to Korea Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group F [BSL22] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The China Politics Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Loot Boxes—Emotions, And Why…
TrAiDoS
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Electronics
mantequilla
Any Web Designers Out there?…
sob3k
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1977 users

PvP Development

Blogs > Danglars
Post a Reply
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 11:33:17
April 14 2011 11:29 GMT
#1
PvP Mirror Matchup. Coin flip? No. Frustrating? Yes. You walk into a good portion of it blind of your opponent's build order and what your optimal build order is in response. 3gate blink looks a lot like 3gate robo which looks a lot like phoenix builds when your scouting probe gets chased out. Ideally you'd like to open sometimes like robo against a blink and phoenix against a robo (at least, in a perfect world, I would), but you have no way of knowing.

Is there that in-between ground of finding a build order that can adjust to an opponent happening to go the "counter" to come up only slightly behind, while covering most popular build orders at an even stance. I preface this by saying that my goal is to enter Protoss midgame with the mindset of forcing the better player to win. I'll test my strategy, mechanics, and decision making against his and see who comes up on top. I will be satisfied by this.

That line of reasoning brings me to the current builds under consideration:
3gate blinkstalker opening w/ early chrono stalkers. Something in the style of YongHwa's 3stalker 3gaterobo opening that uses stalker micro to delay a 4warpgate, and aftewards gets up the third gate and council in time to micro against an attack in the 6:45-8minutes range. Haven't exactly worked out the timings I like for this yet, but I'm close. 3 stalker robo is the skeleton with council replacing robotics facility. You end up with a sizable force of blinkstalkers in midgame, themselves a force to be reckoned with against robo builds, and a terrifying force against phoenix builds.

3gate robo. Probably the most familiar build to my fingers. Early second gate to, again, get some stalkers out to deal with the most aggressive of the 4 warpgates and take some good map vision. Against a Protoss that takes and mines his second gas, cut some corners to get better probe saturation and later third gate. If all goes well, it's a 1base colossus player against a toss that does anything but phoenix (immortal timing attack / expo if he does that) and colossus is a staple of the matchup regardless. You're still rolling the dice if he goes robo-first (you have nothing to punish him for such fast teching). Robo first has the earlier colo, and you might be struggling with a 2-colossus push that happens when you only have 1. Minor concern at that, still a lot of room for micro and delaying if he's trying to reap an earlier-robo advantage.

Phoenix opening. Currently I'm doing a stargate-first build that might as well be 2gate stargate if not for the option to attack an opponent that expo's (EDIT: third gate is possibility of extra units at a proxy pylon to attack with, but only 2 gates are really utilized at the beginning of the build). Attack and scout with 3 phoenix, grab probes annoy as much as possible. If he's splitting off stalkers to defend the harass, kill the zealots/sentries that are left bare. Decide if you think he's going to allin attack you off of it (unwise on his part) or expand (your turn to decide if you want to 1base attack him at the expo. Dies REALLY HARD to blinkstalker openings. You micro your heart out but unless you were lucky enough to save gas after 3 phoenix you don't have the firepower or units to oppose the blinkstalker opening. Scouted 4warpgate with 1gas you just transition to a 3gate robo or eco 4warpgate. I need to see it against more 4warpgates with 2gas to decide if that build order is a huge advantage or just even if he decides to attack.

Elusive 3gate opening with late tech? For the purposes of this discussion, I'll assume my opponent will have a huge advantage doing robo first, nearly game-winning. Taking this route is aiming at giving yourself a chance to make a tech decision after a stalker poke. Robo if you only see a gateway mix or blink likelihood at ramp. Choice of phoenix OR robo if you see a robotics facility/immortal. Really unexplored option in this list. I'll get around to testing a BO against my practice partners. I guess you could call this a 3gate robo with the option to not drop the robo and go blink or phoenix (expo against gate->robo) instead. I'm a big hater of theorycrafting so this has no merits until it gets tested against the popular builds.

For a question to open the comment discussion: what are your PvP openings and the builds you hope they aren't doing when you open with each?

Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 13:36:01
April 14 2011 13:34 GMT
#2
I open canon rush. I hope they don't scout until they have placed their gateway. That is the only opening I like.

I sometimes 4 gate, then I hope they do a tech build and don't do some sort of 2 gate pressure.

Occasionally I open 2 proxy gates and then I hope they do a defensive 4 gate since that has a lateish gate and doesn't always open with a zealot.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
April 14 2011 17:12 GMT
#3
I don't get why people hate on pvp so much.

Its a micro battle every time and its close every time with 4gate mirror
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
chaokel
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia535 Posts
April 14 2011 18:38 GMT
#4
Almost every protoss i vs 4gates me, so i usually end up having to defensive 4gate when i scout it or lose.

Frustrating? extremely.

Why is it that of all my 9 matchups protoss vs protoss is the only one that almost never goes to late game, and is the same every single game. None of the other mirror matchups i play involve this spastic i'm going to just make units off one base until either you die or i am repelled and then die crap.

On the rare occasion i dont end up against a 4gater i like to do a 2gate robo timing attack to get some damage off (or possibly win, this is not the aim though) into expand.
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6600 Posts
April 14 2011 19:11 GMT
#5
I like to do adel's 2 gate. As long as you don't mess up the macro after the first 2 stalkers, you can out produce the 4 gate without warp, and with some micro you can heavily damage your opponent early if its a short rush distance. Gives you a stronger econ, and beats proxy 2 gate as well. I enjoy the micro a lot as it reminds me of bw PvP.

Frustrating: Not if you can macro/micro ^^ It made PvP fun for me, as I hated going 3 gate robo collo every game -.-
LiquidDota Staff
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 17 2011 11:52 GMT
#6
Yurie ~ I find it pretty surprising that you only like opening cannon rush compared to 4warpgates and 2gate zealot pressure. It's a fun opener on unsuspecting opponents (and when you wall off the cannons from attack, so so much fun) but I like the strategies with a little more variety? I laugh because one of them is just zealots stalkers and proxy pylons so I might see your point

Why is it that of all my 9 matchups protoss vs protoss is the only one that almost never goes to late game, and is the same every single game. None of the other mirror matchups i play involve this spastic i'm going to just make units off one base until either you die or i am repelled and then die crap.
Chaokel ~~ if Colossus might be considered the lategame, as single-dimensional as it appears, then PvP frequently reaches "endgame" such as in the case of a 4gating player that does not want to try to defeat a defending 4wg player (Both tech to colossus). ZvZ can be decided off just speedlings, just speedling baneling, just roaches, or just roaches and infestors. I think they're the mirror match reaching endgame least.

OmniEulogy ~~ Yeah I tried and liked Adel's 2gate timing attack before warpgate =) Don't know why I stopped doing it, maybe I Just like warpgate ^.^
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
April 17 2011 12:05 GMT
#7
I also like Adel's 2gate but I find that the timing attack hits a little too late on many maps.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
20:15
Best Games of SC
Rogue vs TriGGeR
Maru vs MaxPax
Rogue vs herO
Clem vs herO
Rogue vs Maru
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft310
White-Ra 165
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 13240
Shuttle 350
Dewaltoss 102
Sexy 31
NaDa 8
Dota 2
Gorgc6136
Pyrionflax203
capcasts92
Counter-Strike
byalli703
minikerr6
Other Games
gofns24270
summit1g14503
tarik_tv8965
Grubby2963
FrodaN1519
mouzStarbuck233
C9.Mang0201
Liquid`Hasu154
ViBE86
ZombieGrub40
ROOTCatZ4
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 35
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile154
• musti20045 19
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 31
• blackmanpl 14
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV391
League of Legends
• Doublelift2407
Other Games
• imaqtpie1192
• Shiphtur332
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
12h
WardiTV Team League
13h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
17h
IPSL
18h
Hawk vs TBD
StRyKeR vs TBD
BSL
21h
n0maD vs perroflaco
TerrOr vs ZZZero
MadiNho vs WolFix
DragOn vs LancerX
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 12h
WardiTV Team League
1d 13h
OSC
1d 15h
BSL
1d 21h
Sterling vs Azhi_Dahaki
Napoleon vs Mazur
Jimin vs Nesh
spx vs Strudel
IPSL
1d 21h
Artosis vs TBD
Napoleon vs TBD
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soma vs YSC
Sharp vs sSak
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs PianO
hero vs Rain
GSL
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Escore
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-09
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
WardiTV TLMC #16
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.