• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:01
CEST 01:01
KST 08:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup4StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)66Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2315
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? October World Ranking: herO stays #1, ByuN returns SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) Awesome/Confusing SC2 BM
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ]
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
Sagi.gg Launcher Released RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site Bot on ladder BW General Discussion BSL Season 23
Tourneys
2v2v2v2 Tournament [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9059 users

PvP Development

Blogs > Danglars
Post a Reply
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 11:33:17
April 14 2011 11:29 GMT
#1
PvP Mirror Matchup. Coin flip? No. Frustrating? Yes. You walk into a good portion of it blind of your opponent's build order and what your optimal build order is in response. 3gate blink looks a lot like 3gate robo which looks a lot like phoenix builds when your scouting probe gets chased out. Ideally you'd like to open sometimes like robo against a blink and phoenix against a robo (at least, in a perfect world, I would), but you have no way of knowing.

Is there that in-between ground of finding a build order that can adjust to an opponent happening to go the "counter" to come up only slightly behind, while covering most popular build orders at an even stance. I preface this by saying that my goal is to enter Protoss midgame with the mindset of forcing the better player to win. I'll test my strategy, mechanics, and decision making against his and see who comes up on top. I will be satisfied by this.

That line of reasoning brings me to the current builds under consideration:
3gate blinkstalker opening w/ early chrono stalkers. Something in the style of YongHwa's 3stalker 3gaterobo opening that uses stalker micro to delay a 4warpgate, and aftewards gets up the third gate and council in time to micro against an attack in the 6:45-8minutes range. Haven't exactly worked out the timings I like for this yet, but I'm close. 3 stalker robo is the skeleton with council replacing robotics facility. You end up with a sizable force of blinkstalkers in midgame, themselves a force to be reckoned with against robo builds, and a terrifying force against phoenix builds.

3gate robo. Probably the most familiar build to my fingers. Early second gate to, again, get some stalkers out to deal with the most aggressive of the 4 warpgates and take some good map vision. Against a Protoss that takes and mines his second gas, cut some corners to get better probe saturation and later third gate. If all goes well, it's a 1base colossus player against a toss that does anything but phoenix (immortal timing attack / expo if he does that) and colossus is a staple of the matchup regardless. You're still rolling the dice if he goes robo-first (you have nothing to punish him for such fast teching). Robo first has the earlier colo, and you might be struggling with a 2-colossus push that happens when you only have 1. Minor concern at that, still a lot of room for micro and delaying if he's trying to reap an earlier-robo advantage.

Phoenix opening. Currently I'm doing a stargate-first build that might as well be 2gate stargate if not for the option to attack an opponent that expo's (EDIT: third gate is possibility of extra units at a proxy pylon to attack with, but only 2 gates are really utilized at the beginning of the build). Attack and scout with 3 phoenix, grab probes annoy as much as possible. If he's splitting off stalkers to defend the harass, kill the zealots/sentries that are left bare. Decide if you think he's going to allin attack you off of it (unwise on his part) or expand (your turn to decide if you want to 1base attack him at the expo. Dies REALLY HARD to blinkstalker openings. You micro your heart out but unless you were lucky enough to save gas after 3 phoenix you don't have the firepower or units to oppose the blinkstalker opening. Scouted 4warpgate with 1gas you just transition to a 3gate robo or eco 4warpgate. I need to see it against more 4warpgates with 2gas to decide if that build order is a huge advantage or just even if he decides to attack.

Elusive 3gate opening with late tech? For the purposes of this discussion, I'll assume my opponent will have a huge advantage doing robo first, nearly game-winning. Taking this route is aiming at giving yourself a chance to make a tech decision after a stalker poke. Robo if you only see a gateway mix or blink likelihood at ramp. Choice of phoenix OR robo if you see a robotics facility/immortal. Really unexplored option in this list. I'll get around to testing a BO against my practice partners. I guess you could call this a 3gate robo with the option to not drop the robo and go blink or phoenix (expo against gate->robo) instead. I'm a big hater of theorycrafting so this has no merits until it gets tested against the popular builds.

For a question to open the comment discussion: what are your PvP openings and the builds you hope they aren't doing when you open with each?

Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12174 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 13:36:01
April 14 2011 13:34 GMT
#2
I open canon rush. I hope they don't scout until they have placed their gateway. That is the only opening I like.

I sometimes 4 gate, then I hope they do a tech build and don't do some sort of 2 gate pressure.

Occasionally I open 2 proxy gates and then I hope they do a defensive 4 gate since that has a lateish gate and doesn't always open with a zealot.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
April 14 2011 17:12 GMT
#3
I don't get why people hate on pvp so much.

Its a micro battle every time and its close every time with 4gate mirror
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
chaokel
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia535 Posts
April 14 2011 18:38 GMT
#4
Almost every protoss i vs 4gates me, so i usually end up having to defensive 4gate when i scout it or lose.

Frustrating? extremely.

Why is it that of all my 9 matchups protoss vs protoss is the only one that almost never goes to late game, and is the same every single game. None of the other mirror matchups i play involve this spastic i'm going to just make units off one base until either you die or i am repelled and then die crap.

On the rare occasion i dont end up against a 4gater i like to do a 2gate robo timing attack to get some damage off (or possibly win, this is not the aim though) into expand.
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6600 Posts
April 14 2011 19:11 GMT
#5
I like to do adel's 2 gate. As long as you don't mess up the macro after the first 2 stalkers, you can out produce the 4 gate without warp, and with some micro you can heavily damage your opponent early if its a short rush distance. Gives you a stronger econ, and beats proxy 2 gate as well. I enjoy the micro a lot as it reminds me of bw PvP.

Frustrating: Not if you can macro/micro ^^ It made PvP fun for me, as I hated going 3 gate robo collo every game -.-
LiquidDota Staff
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 17 2011 11:52 GMT
#6
Yurie ~ I find it pretty surprising that you only like opening cannon rush compared to 4warpgates and 2gate zealot pressure. It's a fun opener on unsuspecting opponents (and when you wall off the cannons from attack, so so much fun) but I like the strategies with a little more variety? I laugh because one of them is just zealots stalkers and proxy pylons so I might see your point

Why is it that of all my 9 matchups protoss vs protoss is the only one that almost never goes to late game, and is the same every single game. None of the other mirror matchups i play involve this spastic i'm going to just make units off one base until either you die or i am repelled and then die crap.
Chaokel ~~ if Colossus might be considered the lategame, as single-dimensional as it appears, then PvP frequently reaches "endgame" such as in the case of a 4gating player that does not want to try to defeat a defending 4wg player (Both tech to colossus). ZvZ can be decided off just speedlings, just speedling baneling, just roaches, or just roaches and infestors. I think they're the mirror match reaching endgame least.

OmniEulogy ~~ Yeah I tried and liked Adel's 2gate timing attack before warpgate =) Don't know why I stopped doing it, maybe I Just like warpgate ^.^
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
April 17 2011 12:05 GMT
#7
I also like Adel's 2gate but I find that the timing attack hits a little too late on many maps.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: Ladder Tournament
04:00
#2 - $100
ZZZero.O157
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft349
Nina 138
ViBE101
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 14845
ZZZero.O 157
firebathero 105
Hyuk 59
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm160
febbydoto92
League of Legends
Doublelift3656
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby5615
Other Games
summit1g8248
FrodaN2480
mouzStarbuck452
JimRising 396
KnowMe252
ArmadaUGS133
Mew2King53
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1176
BasetradeTV207
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream131
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 92
• musti20045 28
• Letter147
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie707
• Shiphtur218
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10h 59m
INu's Battles
12h 59m
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
15h 59m
MilkiCow vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
BSL Open Qualifier
19h 59m
BSL Open Qualifier
19h 59m
Replay Cast
23h 59m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 10h
Rush vs Light
WardiTV Weekly
1d 11h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 16h
Replay Cast
1d 23h
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soma vs Soulkey
INu's Battles
2 days
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
INu's Battles
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-02
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Copium Cup
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.