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Blogs > Danglars
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Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 11:33:17
April 14 2011 11:29 GMT
#1
PvP Mirror Matchup. Coin flip? No. Frustrating? Yes. You walk into a good portion of it blind of your opponent's build order and what your optimal build order is in response. 3gate blink looks a lot like 3gate robo which looks a lot like phoenix builds when your scouting probe gets chased out. Ideally you'd like to open sometimes like robo against a blink and phoenix against a robo (at least, in a perfect world, I would), but you have no way of knowing.

Is there that in-between ground of finding a build order that can adjust to an opponent happening to go the "counter" to come up only slightly behind, while covering most popular build orders at an even stance. I preface this by saying that my goal is to enter Protoss midgame with the mindset of forcing the better player to win. I'll test my strategy, mechanics, and decision making against his and see who comes up on top. I will be satisfied by this.

That line of reasoning brings me to the current builds under consideration:
3gate blinkstalker opening w/ early chrono stalkers. Something in the style of YongHwa's 3stalker 3gaterobo opening that uses stalker micro to delay a 4warpgate, and aftewards gets up the third gate and council in time to micro against an attack in the 6:45-8minutes range. Haven't exactly worked out the timings I like for this yet, but I'm close. 3 stalker robo is the skeleton with council replacing robotics facility. You end up with a sizable force of blinkstalkers in midgame, themselves a force to be reckoned with against robo builds, and a terrifying force against phoenix builds.

3gate robo. Probably the most familiar build to my fingers. Early second gate to, again, get some stalkers out to deal with the most aggressive of the 4 warpgates and take some good map vision. Against a Protoss that takes and mines his second gas, cut some corners to get better probe saturation and later third gate. If all goes well, it's a 1base colossus player against a toss that does anything but phoenix (immortal timing attack / expo if he does that) and colossus is a staple of the matchup regardless. You're still rolling the dice if he goes robo-first (you have nothing to punish him for such fast teching). Robo first has the earlier colo, and you might be struggling with a 2-colossus push that happens when you only have 1. Minor concern at that, still a lot of room for micro and delaying if he's trying to reap an earlier-robo advantage.

Phoenix opening. Currently I'm doing a stargate-first build that might as well be 2gate stargate if not for the option to attack an opponent that expo's (EDIT: third gate is possibility of extra units at a proxy pylon to attack with, but only 2 gates are really utilized at the beginning of the build). Attack and scout with 3 phoenix, grab probes annoy as much as possible. If he's splitting off stalkers to defend the harass, kill the zealots/sentries that are left bare. Decide if you think he's going to allin attack you off of it (unwise on his part) or expand (your turn to decide if you want to 1base attack him at the expo. Dies REALLY HARD to blinkstalker openings. You micro your heart out but unless you were lucky enough to save gas after 3 phoenix you don't have the firepower or units to oppose the blinkstalker opening. Scouted 4warpgate with 1gas you just transition to a 3gate robo or eco 4warpgate. I need to see it against more 4warpgates with 2gas to decide if that build order is a huge advantage or just even if he decides to attack.

Elusive 3gate opening with late tech? For the purposes of this discussion, I'll assume my opponent will have a huge advantage doing robo first, nearly game-winning. Taking this route is aiming at giving yourself a chance to make a tech decision after a stalker poke. Robo if you only see a gateway mix or blink likelihood at ramp. Choice of phoenix OR robo if you see a robotics facility/immortal. Really unexplored option in this list. I'll get around to testing a BO against my practice partners. I guess you could call this a 3gate robo with the option to not drop the robo and go blink or phoenix (expo against gate->robo) instead. I'm a big hater of theorycrafting so this has no merits until it gets tested against the popular builds.

For a question to open the comment discussion: what are your PvP openings and the builds you hope they aren't doing when you open with each?

Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11810 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 13:36:01
April 14 2011 13:34 GMT
#2
I open canon rush. I hope they don't scout until they have placed their gateway. That is the only opening I like.

I sometimes 4 gate, then I hope they do a tech build and don't do some sort of 2 gate pressure.

Occasionally I open 2 proxy gates and then I hope they do a defensive 4 gate since that has a lateish gate and doesn't always open with a zealot.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13893 Posts
April 14 2011 17:12 GMT
#3
I don't get why people hate on pvp so much.

Its a micro battle every time and its close every time with 4gate mirror
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
chaokel
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia535 Posts
April 14 2011 18:38 GMT
#4
Almost every protoss i vs 4gates me, so i usually end up having to defensive 4gate when i scout it or lose.

Frustrating? extremely.

Why is it that of all my 9 matchups protoss vs protoss is the only one that almost never goes to late game, and is the same every single game. None of the other mirror matchups i play involve this spastic i'm going to just make units off one base until either you die or i am repelled and then die crap.

On the rare occasion i dont end up against a 4gater i like to do a 2gate robo timing attack to get some damage off (or possibly win, this is not the aim though) into expand.
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
April 14 2011 19:11 GMT
#5
I like to do adel's 2 gate. As long as you don't mess up the macro after the first 2 stalkers, you can out produce the 4 gate without warp, and with some micro you can heavily damage your opponent early if its a short rush distance. Gives you a stronger econ, and beats proxy 2 gate as well. I enjoy the micro a lot as it reminds me of bw PvP.

Frustrating: Not if you can macro/micro ^^ It made PvP fun for me, as I hated going 3 gate robo collo every game -.-
LiquidDota Staff
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 17 2011 11:52 GMT
#6
Yurie ~ I find it pretty surprising that you only like opening cannon rush compared to 4warpgates and 2gate zealot pressure. It's a fun opener on unsuspecting opponents (and when you wall off the cannons from attack, so so much fun) but I like the strategies with a little more variety? I laugh because one of them is just zealots stalkers and proxy pylons so I might see your point

Why is it that of all my 9 matchups protoss vs protoss is the only one that almost never goes to late game, and is the same every single game. None of the other mirror matchups i play involve this spastic i'm going to just make units off one base until either you die or i am repelled and then die crap.
Chaokel ~~ if Colossus might be considered the lategame, as single-dimensional as it appears, then PvP frequently reaches "endgame" such as in the case of a 4gating player that does not want to try to defeat a defending 4wg player (Both tech to colossus). ZvZ can be decided off just speedlings, just speedling baneling, just roaches, or just roaches and infestors. I think they're the mirror match reaching endgame least.

OmniEulogy ~~ Yeah I tried and liked Adel's 2gate timing attack before warpgate =) Don't know why I stopped doing it, maybe I Just like warpgate ^.^
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
April 17 2011 12:05 GMT
#7
I also like Adel's 2gate but I find that the timing attack hits a little too late on many maps.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
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