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First,
I'm a "genuine" gamer, if that even makes sense. Broodwar / Q3 / CS / WC3 / Dota. I've been playing all these games quite a lot, and I fell in love with each one of them.
When SC2 came out, I wasn't very hyped, but I thought that the pro-scene would make me fall for it, you follow a player, then you like his moves, then you wanna do the same and so on.
But with SC2, It doesn't work.
When I watch TLO / Ret and the likes, I can't help myself to think.. that I'm bored.
Everytime there is a fight, I just wish there could be lurkers and reavers in there, for the sake of woowww, dunno if that makes sense, I'm tired.
I loved broodwar for the High APM, heavy macro and genius moves AND the proscene
I loved WC3 for the sick micro, 5HP saves, artistic gameplay and tricks
I loved Dota for its unreal gameplay/teamplay action, and the joy of controlling highlevel heroes
But in SC2, beyond the money and the huge tournaments, there is almost nothing that I like.
I feel like Blizzard just achieved an average game, with average units, on average maps. There is nothing more than we see right now, unless they really start bringing good units and good ideas in the next sequels, the game will just stay that bad, sorry to say.
I'm not a troll, I'm very sad to be in that state of mind because I'd like to be SC2 biggest fan out there, Hell I even bought MLG HD tickets because I always hope that THIS next event will make me love the game again.
Maybe I'm just too old now ?
Whatever
'night
 
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umm.. I think you are trolling. Either that, or you just want BW in 3d graphics.. SC2 is the best RTS game that could be made that wasnt an exact copy of a previous game..
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I doubt everyone was creative with their units when Broodwar launched. It's only been out for one year and no one knows how to play their race yet. Watch Vibe vs. TLO from NASL day1. That's someone that is coming close to what it should be like. Sheth vs. Artosis was an awesome match up to and an example of how players are still learning how to use all these units together.
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On April 14 2011 08:01 Skyze wrote:
umm.. I think you are trolling. Either that, or you just want BW in 3d graphics.. SC2 is the best RTS game that could be made that wasnt an exact copy of a previous game..
Nah, I don't want bw in 3D. I just think that, units have no personnality whatsoever, does it make sense ?
I believe that, Dragoons, Reavers, Lurkers, Defilers are not quite matched by their replacements in terms of "personnality" ?
If you look at it, Vikings / Immortal / even Stalkers are very basic units. I realize that it's not easy to understand what I want to say, especially since my english is so bad, but I'm not emotionnaly attached to most of the SC2 units, while I was very hooked to concepts of the BW units.
In fights, I don't see anything "amazing" happening. Yes there are forcefields and fungal growth, yes sometimes it's well done... but that's really all there is.
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Anyway If SO many people like the game, it has to be good or at least decent. I'm not blaming the game, I'm blaming myself for not being able to like it. heh..
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I think we defer on what makes a game good
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Everyone has their own opinion
For every person disappointed with SC2, there are a 1000 others who enjoy the game
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the Dagon Knight4016 Posts
In fairness, for most of us, BW hit us quite young. It was also with us an awfully long time; we were kind of the perfect age/timespread to get attached to the units as we learned to incorporate them into our play, or watched the pros do it.
I'll never forget the first couple of times that ZvP just clicked for me and I had my 'sair/DT business going on.
It's that feeling that builds up over time. Already in SC2 there've been a couple of times when I've just thought, "Oh wow, I've really been doing that wrong... how didn't I see this before?" and they still feel good. Just remember that it's all still early days yet 
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Excellent point yejin. SC2 is a good, average game but does lack some of the personality that BW has in its units and gameplay. As for the reason why you feel alone in your opinion, like you pointed out, you are a serious gamer and understand what makes games good and so you pick up on things like that earlier than other people do.
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There's some ways that I think BW is superior, some that I think is inferior. But honestly if you were already so in love with Brood War and have such an attachment to the units(and who doesn't fall in love with Dragoons? They're like stupid puppies.) I have no idea how you could have the same appreciation for their "replacements".
I also feel that watching TLO, Ret, and MLG events was a poor choice if you want to get excited about top level SC2. Those are good players certainly but if you want the best you want GSL. The World Championship is free.
I also think you're being more condescending than you realize if you call SC2 an "average game" :/ I understand that it's your opinion but you have to understand that you're basing it in large part on the fact that you're comparing it to the two greatest legacies in RTS games so far, BW and WC3, and ONLY to those games. If it's worse than WC3 and BW to you, does that automatically put it on the level of the "average" RTS - and what is that, anyway? What games are on SC2's level to you?
IMO in the future people will have a lot of attachments to SC2 units the way people are attached to BW units. Especially banelings. People loooove banelings.
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Brood War players are simply better. When you have so many games where both players simply turtle or walk around back and forth doing nothing it's impossible to make an accurate judgment of the game. There have been many good, great games produced; it's simply not consistent. The game is changing all the time (people who claim that it's not are being obtuse; BW is still not stagnant and how many years have people played it on a professional level?)
You don't just get people like Flash and Jaedong popping out of the vacuum; they were built on hundreds of thousands of professional man-hours. To compare them to TLO and Ret is unfair to both parties.
also no offense but saying that you're a genuine gamer (as if people who play Angry Birds are not) is kind of dumb. Are fans of Harry Potter genuine readers as opposed to someone who reads Ulysses or something like that?
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On April 14 2011 08:34 Redmark wrote:
Brood War players are simply better. When you have so many games where both players simply turtle or walk around back and forth doing nothing it's impossible to make an accurate judgment of the game. There have been many good, great games produced; it's simply not consistent. The game is changing all the time (people who claim that it's not are being obtuse; BW is still not stagnant and how many years have people played it on a professional level?)
You don't just get people like Flash and Jaedong popping out of the vacuum; they were built on hundreds of thousands of professional man-hours. To compare them to TLO and Ret is unfair to both parties.
also no offense but saying that you're a genuine gamer (as if people who play Angry Birds are not) is kind of dumb. Are fans of Harry Potter genuine readers as opposed to someone who reads Ulysses or something like that?
You know, I watch a bit of SC2 and a lot of BW, and I would say that both players are about as good as the other in their respective games. Its not that difficult as a pro to have almost perfect macro and micro is almost a non issue in SC2. I don't really see where players are going to improve and once the strategies become standardized, even the creative aspects will be non existant.
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Please just use the search bar if you feel like bashing SC2 - That was the hottest topic in the beta and during the release. So go back and enjoy yourself reading other people's (quite biased) opinions. It has been done over and over.
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I think the problem you are feeling is that the minimum skill threshold in SC2 is higher than in BW.
In BW, if you sucked at using reavers, they were just bad. They'd waddle into tank lines or die to dragoons or whatever. If you sucked at placing storms (because of no smart casting) they'd do nothing.
in SC2 it is easier to achieve a sort of baseline of skill and as such when the pros pull off perfect storms it isn't quite as WOWWWWW because they aren't THAT different from the ones a relatively midlevel player can do.
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Actually if you watch closely even high level Korean progamers in SC2 absolutely do not have perfect macro by any means. People get supply blocked and queue units all the time. There is a LOT of room for improvement on that front. Some are better than others, of course.
But right now in Brood War the strategies are "standardized" and the metagame STILL changes. I guess I'm just skeptical that either game will ever be totally figured out, because I've read TL posts literally from 2005(don't criticize what i do in my spare time) claiming that it was unlikely the game would get much more figured out than it already had been. Think about that.
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It's not for everyone. There's nothing wrong with not looking the sequel to a game you liked, or a game that other people might like.
Personally, I wouldn't have minded BW in 3d, but I guess Blizzard had to make some new and cooler looking units to attract new players. The good thing is that I'm a lot better at SC2 than I ever was at BW, and that I actually have friends irl who play.
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On April 14 2011 08:45 Turgid wrote:
Actually if you watch closely even high level Korean progamers in SC2 absolutely do not have perfect macro by any means. People get supply blocked and queue units all the time. There is a LOT of room for improvement on that front. Some are better than others, of course.
But right now in Brood War the strategies are "standardized" and the metagame STILL changes. I guess I'm just skeptical that either game will ever be totally figured out, because I've read TL posts literally from 2005(don't criticize what i do in my spare time) claiming that it was unlikely the game would get much more figured out than it already had been. Think about that.
I think you are underestimating the macro abilities of top SC2 players. I was watching a SC2 game between grubby and moon and literally the moment moon would lose a unit, his supply would go right back up to 200/200. Even Jaedong you see occisional delay in macro and when you watch stork, frequently during micro intensive moments his money goes up to like 1000.
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It's also a lot harder to macro in BW. Most players don't have all their production structures hotkeyed, so they actually have to look away from the battle to macro back up.
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Obviously it is easier to macro in SC2 compared to BW, but moon going 4sr every time he sees his supply drop when he's already maxed and has larva saved up isn't proof of perfection. Even your mineral count isn't proof of perfect macro. Lots of players are apparently quite inefficient at getting their shit out on the field.
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Calgary26004 Posts
People must really be sure of themselves if they can predict the future of SC2 development so easily.
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EPT
