EPTI hate it with a passion. I say just do what makes you happy, no matter what that is.
To give in, or to not give in? - Page 2
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
I hate it with a passion. I say just do what makes you happy, no matter what that is. | ||
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Laerties
United States361 Posts
I do however definitely believe getting a more interesting job, working to dedicate your life to something you are passionate about or interested in will make you happier. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause: there's the respect That makes calamity of so long life; For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely, The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office and the spurns That patient merit of the unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscover'd country from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all; And thus the native hue of resolution Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought, And enterprises of great pith and moment With this regard their currents turn awry, And lose the name of action. - Soft you now! The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons Be all my sins remember'd. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
btw the venus project is completely and utterly ridiculous. please go read a book on natural resource economics, some history of governments (the fall of rome), some history on the use of coinage and money, etc etc. As I said before, I really don't want to discuss the venus project here. your choices: (a) fuck around at the grocery store and keep up this charade of being "reflective" and "outside the system" while in fact remaining pretty useless and not using any of your potential, or (b) man up and deal with the world as it is, not as you would like it to be. Wow man, you got a way with words - I like it, especially the point about waising my potential. I was so full of myself, that I actually thought I would punish this sick society by refusing to live up to my potential. I am one of 7 billion - If I ever want to move anything I better start right now. Thanks for putting this so cleary! You can't avoid capitalism and you can't destroy it, so why not embrace it. Backbone? My ridiculously self-righteous personality? Which transaction of money feels worse to you? I did answer this to palanq while you wrote the question, copy: + Show Spoiler + Because I do think that all education should be free. Having problems to access certain education, books, instruments myself I can't bring myself to put a money constrain to my teaching. As I do not want to teach for monetary profit, I want to help people learn. | ||
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meaculpa
United States119 Posts
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
I really just don't see what the problem is except some kind of personality disorder. And stop romanticizing your problems, you won't sell yourself out until you actually sell someone a piece of your body for scientific research. Why don't you stop working at the grocery store and make money by tutoring? I consider myself cursed with a critical thinking mind. I am smart enough to choose not to be part of mensa, as I know that people's potential can't be judged. I could imagine to help mankind by doing research on various fields, but since in the current system all research is directly linked to or hindered by monetary profit, I distance myself from this option. This is actually the biggest error and waste of your intelligence. Someone(maybe my philosophy professor) said to me something to the effect of "the test of a liberal education is to be able to judge many different ideas and discern which is a better choice." I think you should put that into action instead of sitting in the mire of complete relativism. I also think you pretend to know things you don't really know. Ex: why is it that it's impossible to judge someone's potential? And how does that relate to your choice of not being a part of mensa? Why can't you do research by yourself? Lastly, how could the world work without any money at all? (There is much research that is not directly linked to profiting, but you seem to know that already and don't need it to prove your philosophy) | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On March 30 2011 11:11 HaRuHi wrote: As I said before, I really don't want to discuss the venus project here. Wow man, you got a way with words - I like it, especially the point about waising my potential. I was so full of myself, that I actually thought I would punish this sick society by refusing to live up to my potential. I am one of 7 billion - If I ever want to move anything I better start right now. Thanks for putting this so cleary! Backbone? My ridiculously self-righteous personality? I did answer this to palanq while you wrote the question, copy: + Show Spoiler + Because I do think that all education should be free. Having problems to access certain education, books, instruments myself I can't bring myself to put a money constrain to my teaching. As I do not want to teach for monetary profit, I want to help people learn. Yet you work for a supermarket... Think about who you are helping by working there. Really think about what you are contributing by doing that. Now think who will benefit from you teaching people for money. You live in a capitalist society. You cannot get away from that right now. It's stupid to think the way that you think. It makes zero sense. I keep trying to put myself in your shoes but then my head just hits this massive block and stops working because I cannot work out how your head works. You are working for a supermarket by choice, yet hate capitalism. You have other ways to fund yourself, one of them being to help people for money, yet you choose to work at a supermarket. My body actually tenses up when I try and fathom your logic. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
 You can't fix the world We'll see about that. Regarding capitalism, (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong) it may have a history of screwing people over, but it does it a little less than communism. Capitalism was tolerable before it's countervalue became faith in my opinion. Communism is an Idea, and was never ever put into real practice. Countries you may consider communistic, such as China, North Korea and Cuba, are in fact socialist countries which strive for communism. Socialism, however, is still based on a monetary system and as such, not really different to capitalism, despite controlling their people more obviously while on the other hand also carrying about there health. Both systems are nothing more than slavery in my eyes. @N3rV[Green] - thanks for making me feel not alone here :D I don't think that pursuit of a more luxurious lifestyle, more material things is going to ultimately make you happier. I do however definitely believe getting a more interesting job, working to dedicate your life to something you are passionate about or interested in will make you happier. Yep, sounds pretty cliche, nevertheless a totally reasonable point and this answer came from who you really are I feel. Thank you | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
Yet you work for a supermarket... Think about who you are helping by working there. Really think about what you are contributing by doing that. I contribute nothing as this job is dispensable and would not be needed if the system we live in would be logically structured. However, it probably helps keeping the shop running and making profit for the owner and owners' owner, and owners' owners' owner. Also it helps me to buy food and pay rent, yay. Now think who will benefit from you teaching people for money Noone? I will gain a short term financial benefit, but I would not be able to accept every student who actually wants to learn, therefore I would rob mankind of this individium's potential. to help people for money Money ain't my incentive, helping is, and it is very satisfying. You live in a capitalist society. You cannot get away from that right now. It's stupid to think the way that you think. It makes zero sense. My logical side does agree, but my heart wants to believe that I can get away, right now!^^ My body actually tenses up when I try and fathom your logic. Thank you for trying so hard. This leads to the logical conclussion that we both operate on a different base of informations. Also, my decisions aren't 100% what my logical side dictates, how about moral? | ||
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HCastorp
United States388 Posts
Jesus said "Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them." This is a beautiful saying that surely does express some truth about the difference between the subsistence lifestyle and one of planning and piling up wealth, yet it is based on a tremendous misunderstanding of the lives of animals: When we look at birds flying, it is easy to see them as free from care leading lives of ease, but in fact animals everywhere (and most humans who have ever lived) are engaged in a constant struggle to survive, one that that vast majority of them lose in painful ways far before their natural lifespan would come to an end. The existence of civilization and money entraps us in webs of obligations that can often seem pointless and cruel. But in the absence of money we would not find that we were free, but that we were entrapped by the still more cruel and harsh realities of finding enough food, shelter and water to last for the next dew days. The inequalities and injustices that could seem to be caused by money are more accurately seen as reflections of human nature that would exist in any case. ---end abstract ramblings--- on to more specifics: Your post is somewhat personal to me because I am a piano teacher and do teach (most of the time) for money. There are aspects of this that bother me. For instance, it bothers me that someone who makes the income I make could probably not afford to study with me, unless music took precedence over many other things in their life. This isn't a function of charging more or less money - obviously if I charged less my income would drop and once again a person who made that lower income could not pay my fee. I have on several occasions taught students for a reduced price or even nothing, but that is by necessity an exception rather than the rule. The teacher-student relationship can also be poisoned by money - Ideally the student and teacher have several overlapping obligations, such as that of the teacher to work in the bet interest of the student, that of the student to respect the teacher, etc. Once the teacher is paid, they are only an employee, a much less respectable position. This dynamic is one of many reasons why lessons with children (who have no role in the economic transaction and thus are free to form a "pure" relationship with the teacher) are often more successful than those with adults. This tendency of money to erode the connections between people is dangerous, and especially so to art and teaching and other activities whose primary value is not economic. But I think in most spheres, the gains it makes possible really do outweigh the negatives. And after all, we can't turn back the clock with respect to capitalism at this point. All we can do is find our own relationship to it. For me it makes more sense to make my living teaching - I am able to share more this way than if I had to hold down another job as well, and the mixture of money has not ruined it for me. I know other people who have made a choice closer to yours, although not as radical. I don't think you're wrong, but I do think you should keep interrogating your own views. You might try teaching for money and see if it really is as damaging as you think. I would strongly recommend the book "The Gift" by Lewis Hyde. It is wide ranging but has much about the relationship of money and art in society. While I realize that is not really your main concern I do think you would find it relevant. I'll leave you with another paraphrase from someone who thought about these things "The farthest thing from Poetry, farther even than crime, is business." -Thoreau EDIT: As I previewed my post I see more things have been posted. I think you are making a logical error when you suggest that if you are paid for teaching, money become your reason for teaching. I teach both for free and for money and my motivation is the same in either case. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On March 30 2011 11:32 HaRuHi wrote: @ Roe, I prefer Kansas, but thanks for your participation I don't see what you mean | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On March 30 2011 11:56 HaRuHi wrote: I contribute nothing as this job is dispensable and would not be needed if the system we live in would be logically structured. However, it probably helps keeping the shop running and making profit for the owner and owners' owner, and owners' owners' owner. Also it helps me to buy food and pay rent, yay. Noone? I will gain a short term financial benefit, but I would not be able to accept every student who actually wants to learn, therefore I would rob mankind of this individium's potential. Money ain't my incentive, helping is, and it is very satisfying. My logical side does agree, but my heart wants to believe that I can get away, right now!^^ Thank you for trying so hard. This leads to the logical conclussion that we both operate on a different base of informations. Also, my decisions aren't 100% what my logical side dictates, how about moral? I would hope that your morals were based on logic. The people that gain from you teaching for money are the students, and yourself. You make a living without contributing to the capitalists, and they get an education. I guess that you would be able to reach more people if you quit your job. Is this not the solution you are looking for? Isn't this a great compromise? Unless you hold that all knowledge and teaching should be free to be the highest value. That's without getting into the fact that what you're proposing, free teaching and knowledge, is ever going to be free in a capitalist system (something you can't get out of right now). The solutions and compromises are so clear to me, I don't know what your actual problem is. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
stop romanticizing your problems i'll try I think you should put that into action instead of sitting in the mire of complete relativism i'll do why is it that it's impossible to judge someone's potential? I came to this conclusion by teaching, and by beeing taught and by beeing endlessly suprised by my best friend. It is an empirical value - this might be wrong, as all empirical values may are, but can you give any proove it is? And how does that relate to your choice of not being a part of mensa? You make some crosses on a template, and people believe they can judge your potential, which I believe is impossible. It's pegging someone to something, it just feels wrong to me. Why can't you do research by yourself? Lack of access to resources. Lastly, how could the world work without any money at all? By education. | ||
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Kittyness
Canada72 Posts
. If you feel your contributing nothing while working at the supermarket and your doing this in exchange for the necessities of life then surely doing something you enjoy more like teaching is a better alternative. Receiving money for something doesn't make you an ass...it just means you can sustain yourself so you can continue to do the things you love and to help others. | ||
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venomium
Netherlands245 Posts
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
I am in kind of a similar situation than you, yet quite different. I despise the way the world works too, and the way everything kind of revolves around money, but I do not quite care about the world enough to make myself an outcast of the system and live dirt poor. I guess unlike you, I am a more self-centred person. I care more about living my own life and enjoying it. As to what you can do, an idea is to change the world to fit your view by creating a group that could change the world then which will start out small and eventually grow larger. ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER! Just giving you ideas  On a less fictional note, you will probably have to do a compromise eventually, maybe turn one of your hobbies to a real job. It sounds like you are starting to burn out already. Or maybe you can find a meaningless decent job that gives you just money to support yourself comfortably while doing everything else you have been doing previously. And you shouldn't base your decisions on what people will think of you, but what you think of yourself. Well good luck with whatever decision you choose. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
thats what every smart intellectual that doesn't want to give into conformity does doesn't have to be a war revolution-could be musical (underground) political (i.e. what's going on in Tunisia/Egypt (not Libya)). Start your own political party. Or a commune. Start going around and give lectures. There's literally tons of things you can do. For a person who's upset about how limited his/her options are by conformity, you should really think outside the box more. The one good thing about capitalism is that there is no penalty for creativity. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
But in the absence of money we would not find that we were free, but that we were entrapped by the still more cruel and harsh realities of finding enough food, shelter and water to last for the next dew days. The inequalities and injustices that could seem to be caused by money are more accurately seen as reflections of human nature that would exist in any case. I really do love your point of view. Please understand that I do not ask for money to dissapear and set us all back into the stoneage, I simply think that there are other options, such as a recourse based economy or a society without competition amongst fellow man. And after all, we can't turn back the clock with respect to capitalism at this point. I suggest turning the clock forward with respect to humanity and technology. Your post is somewhat personal to me because I am a piano teacher and do teach (most of the time) for money. .... EDIT: As I previewed my post I see more things have been posted. I think you are making a logical error when you suggest that if you are paid for teaching, money become your reason for teaching. I teach both for free and for money and my motivation is the same in either case. That is absolutly fine, my sister teaches music for money aswell. I am a self-righteous prick and did not want to offend anyone. I do have other option than teaching to make money so I don't have to sacrifice this luxus of beeing a pretentious good person in this regard. The book is written down on the list, still have to read 3 others though, if I remember I'll send you a pm once I finished. I don't see what you mean This could end up in a social awkward situation. I am just gonna redeem my statement and simply say thank you. The solutions and compromises are so clear to me, I don't know what your actual problem is. I guess my highest value actually is that access, when reasonable should be free and I can't directly limit access I can give. And I also do not have to I think, there are other option I have, I will just have to sell a little bit of my soul, and this thread probably is about an emo who has to start to deal with "the real" world. I was just curious if others can share and relate to my feelings and what people who can't will think of it. You appear very cold hearted to me, something I do not want to become. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
I really do love your point of view. Please understand that I do not ask for money to dissapear and set us all back into the stoneage, I simply think that there are other options, such as a recourse based economy or a society without competition amongst fellow man. This seems to betray logic: if you move to resource based economy there will still be competition, there will still be quantification and materialization. A society without competition will die out easily. If you've learned anything from nature it may bear to be that humans thrive on competition. I hope we aren't in a verbal argument though, as you didnt define 'competition' or resource, and we could agree that humanity needs less competition in the form of bombs and guns, and more in the form of art and science. But then again, where does the motivation to advance come from? I still think you should read a philosophy book and put your autodidacticism to work on good reasoning and argument so that you may convince us of your point of view. And no, 'it's true because I know it's true' isn't an argument, and it isn't going to get you anywhere. That's quite ironically self-centered wouldn't you say? I came to this conclusion by teaching, and by beeing taught and by beeing endlessly suprised by my best friend. It is an empirical value - this might be wrong, as all empirical values may are, but can you give any proove it is? Well, empirical values are based on the senses. Pure reasoning is sort of the opposite, i.e. math/geometry. I'm still intrigued and would like to know more about your best friend and how he showed you that it is impossible to judge someone's potential. So that I don't dodge your question, I'll answer yours with one of mine: did you not, at the instant you were "surprised" by your friend, come to judge his potential in some way? | ||
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DocM
United States212 Posts
That is a rather pedantic example, but the point is that you can teach and get compensated for it and still teach for the sake of teaching. If you believed that all food should be free as well would you still work in a supermarket? From what I can tell, you have taken all the bad side effects of capitalism and chosen to ignore the good that can come from it. Capitalism has some serious problems, but the reason for that is an abuse of the system, which while imperfect still works. If there is a better way to allocate a limited amount of resources to those who demand them efficiently, then please let us know. Resource based economics are incredibly inefficient and would probably reduce the access of materials to the public (mainly, who would decide who gets what resources when, and who decides who attains these resources?), while a society without competition amongst fellow man cannot be move forward in technology or humanity. These things are nice sounding but they cant happen if we do nothing. I think the greatest thing to walk away with is this: to never try is to fail, the biggest mistake is being too afraid to make one, ect. ect. If living and breathing end up causing some people pain, even with the best intentions, the logical answer your coming to is to kill yourself. However that is still the wrong answer. Perpetual paralysis is not the way to fix a stiff muscle that brings pain every time you move it. You move it enough until the muscle becomes flexible and the pain goes away. | ||
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