EPTFour Zerg FF Counters - Page 2
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TehForce
1072 Posts
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YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
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hiawatha
United States120 Posts
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
Sure overseers are good for scouting but no overseer is gonna come anywhere bear in time for scouting timing rushes tech rushes or all ins and thats wat ppl are complaining about | ||
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Tschis
Brazil1511 Posts
Plus, we most likely have to expand early for the extra larva, having to defend two bases with weaker units by default (since the idea is to overwhelm by numbers, not strength). But then, in some situations we can't get high numbers of units because we get blocked by force fields in the ramp. //tx | ||
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
All Ive been reading is how a buncha newbs are pissy that they "have to sacrifice an overlord" CONGRATULATIONS! Protoss doesn't even have a flying scout till observers or you could iunno FUCKING USE DRONES TO SCOUT OUT THE EARLY GAME. GOD! User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On March 21 2011 15:35 ZaplinG wrote: I originally wrote this for a ff qq topic, but it got closed before I could post. Still wanted to share it though since I was actually going to post this time. I am a zerg player and I came up with these four magical suggestions to counter ff: 1) Keep your army outside of your base so you can't get blocked in while your expo dies. 2) Dont let him get inside your base. Block the bottom of your ramps at all costs. 3) Burrow (already been discussed, for roaches only, but I would like to see hydras eventually get a burrow move upgrade too) 4) Keep overlords with drop near your ramp to ferry if need be. And how are people claiming zerg's cant scout? Thats the biggest load I've ever heard. Sac an overlord for 100 minerals, drop changelings into their main asap, use a zergling or a tunneling roach. Or stop being such cheap asses and research ol speed. For real. 1) You can't reinforce, that's the issue here 2) You sac an expo while he has an expo, and you can't get out to remove his forces since he's FF'ing your ramp to delay you from rebuilding your expo 3) Would be nice if it was thesible to get burrow+movement AND have enough roaches to hold off a six gate push. It'd also be nice to know wether or not he's going to roll in there with 12 sentries, or 12 stalkers, and still have the time to finish these upgrades 4) Again, quick tech makes you really vulnerable to these pushes. That, and drop tech takes centuries to research. If I ever get to the point where people do this as a standard build in PvZ, I'll probably research burrow ASAP, or make infinity spine crawlers, as those seem to be the best courses of action. I mean, what is a stalker/sentry push going to do to spine crawlers? Sure, I'll have to spend 1000+ minerals and 10 drones to force him to leave my base, which ends up being useless, but I like think deadly headbutting giraffes look cute! | ||
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Tschis
Brazil1511 Posts
How much difference (in balance) would it make, to have an expansion right by your main, or not really close, but not lower ground either? //tx | ||
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mesohawny
Canada193 Posts
On March 21 2011 16:06 ZaplinG wrote: Im playing in plat 2v2 and still have no trouble with ff in battles, not enough to really get upset about it. I like to micro, though, so I may just be outplaying my opponents. Just have to throw a few jukes in there before your armies commit to each other - maybe try to get a flank in as well. I mean, sometimes they catch a couple of my units, but not anything crippling. I usually just ditch them and retreat a little until I can reinforce, then attack if I can before his energy comes back. As a result, I rarely fight toe to toe, but instead scrape away at him every time he tries to move out. Here's the problem... you're using examples from your platinum 2v2 games and you think people here are going to take you seriously? When you start playing real competition, your views will change, and your jukes won't work... you'll just get owned... p.s. roaches without speed can't juke anything, even on creep... maybe a platinum player with the reflexes of a dead horse can't catch them but a good player will catch them, surround them, and eat them alive. And if we had a way to magically have our eggs appear at the bottom of the ramp, it would be wonderful, but as it stands, they have to come from a hatchery... meaning half your reinforcements will be forced to come down the ramp. Obviously we try to have as many in our natural as possible, but you always need reinforcements. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
Again, it would help if I could show you with a screenshot of what I mean, but think of reshaping the map with your buildings. Like how Protoss have to make a good wall or lose automatically in an FFE. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4217 Posts
On March 22 2011 07:46 Blisse wrote: I tried to show my take on this, but my computer is crashing. Essentially I'm feeling Zergs are supposed to make wall as quick as possible about 5 spaces towards the entrance from the ramp. Meaning that if a Sentry wants to Force Field the ramp, they'll have to go all the way around the wall, where hopefully your army is waiting. An Evolution Chamber, Roach Warren and two Spine Crawlers would probably make the wall pretty safe. Again, it would help if I could show you with a screenshot of what I mean, but think of reshaping the map with your buildings. Like how Protoss have to make a good wall or lose automatically in an FFE. I've tried. This isn't BW anymore..... At least, it's not for Z..... You don't have creep early enough to pull this type of thing off on most maps unless you hatch first and use early energy on a tumor..... And even then, it's pretty map dependent..... Not to mention - you sack a drone for each building, and a roach worth of resources for an evo chamber.... Which are not desireable effects of walling off..... | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
On March 22 2011 09:01 Impervious wrote: I've tried. This isn't BW anymore..... At least, it's not for Z..... You don't have creep early enough to pull this type of thing off on most maps unless you hatch first and use early energy on a tumor..... And even then, it's pretty map dependent..... Not to mention - you sack a drone for each building, and a roach worth of resources for an evo chamber.... Which are not desireable effects of walling off..... ? That or lose. Let's not try it at all. Queen's first energy is always on Creep. Both of them. At least if you're going any fast expand build. You always have enough energy to tumor at least once. Instead of putting the tumor in the main, put it in the natural, and have one in the main later. Or creep generate instead in your main. You always have the energy. Map dependent yes. I believe Tal'Darim Altar has a pretty well shielded ramp. So you might not need that strong of a wall. In Crevasse, it's pretty impossible to hold your third if Protoss decides to force field the half ramp. Definitely possible on Metalopolis, but leaves very vulnerable building. Also possible on the other 2-player map (forgot name), if you just choose to wall the entire path off. Not sure if it'd be in time for that one though. Impossible on Crossfire. This is why mapmakers constantly make new maps. Feedback from community. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4217 Posts
On March 22 2011 09:26 Blisse wrote: ? That or lose. Let's not try it at all. Queen's first energy is always on Creep. Both of them. At least if you're going any fast expand build. You always have enough energy to tumor at least once. Instead of putting the tumor in the main, put it in the natural, and have one in the main later. Or creep generate instead in your main. You always have the energy. Map dependent yes. I believe Tal'Darim Altar has a pretty well shielded ramp. So you might not need that strong of a wall. In Crevasse, it's pretty impossible to hold your third if Protoss decides to force field the half ramp. Definitely possible on Metalopolis, but leaves very vulnerable building. Also possible on the other 2-player map (forgot name), if you just choose to wall the entire path off. Not sure if it'd be in time for that one though. Impossible on Crossfire. This is why mapmakers constantly make new maps. Feedback from community. So you're suggesting that Z, which already has trouble keeping up in economy vs a P player at that point in the game, should preemptively lose 10% of their economy to prepare for a rush that may never actually come? It will work for a hatch first on some maps, yes. So, what happens if P blocks your hatch and you have to go pool first? Game over if they 4 gate you? Also, lol at trying to block on a map like DQ. | ||
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