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I had third shift last night, and where I work, third shift means one thing; internet time. So I set about doing some hyping of some of my favorite players for TSL3 to start. Long shot prediction here, but I'm gunning for a Tyler v IdrA final, the rematch of a lifetime(as chill might put it)! NonY's been looking scary good lately and I think there's a good shot at IdrA making it if he can pull some magic over Nestea.
Anyway, back to the thought at hand. I was perusing the forums, and came across a post in which I read something that absolutely made me mad. The sentiment of the post was basically that the NASL should be all Koreans with the foreigners already over there (IdrA, Jinro, HuK, Ret). I hate seeing stuff like this, because if furthers the stereotype that if you're Korean you're awesome, and if you're not, you suck.
The thread quickly devolved and I'm ashamed that I took part in it. I should really know better to argue with people like that, as so often it no longer is idea vs idea, it becomes person vs person. I watched a lot of people post some pretty negative stuff about some fantastic Starcraft players. But I can proudly say I learned something today. A lot of members in this community can't accept the idea of a good foreigner that isn't based in Korea.
Going back to the Brood War model, it's obvious where this mindset comes from. If you look at the very best players in Brood War, almost every single one was Korean
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GNAR1Hi_Wiw/0.jpg) Except for him
The fact that there was this developed pro scene around Brood War lead to an environment where budding starcraft players could thrive. Compare this to the rest of the world, where there was really only one big tourney a year up until TSL hit the scene. WCG. Foreigners just didn't take the game as seriously, which hurt foreign pros, and as a result, Koreans dominated the Brood War scene. It was just too hard to compete as a foreigner because the support system wasn't there. For the same reasons, you're not going to see a ton of soccer stars pouring out of the states.
Jump forward to today. The game we're working with has yet to take hold in Korea; BW is still winning out. Conversely, Starcraft II is blowing up EVERYWHERE else. The foreign scene is finally getting treated to a taste of that developed pro scene around Brood War in Korea. There is a huge influx of players, and everything is really exciting. I can understand where players are coming from holding onto the idea of Korea being the untouchable God's of Starcraft, but I don't think they are any more.
Sure, the average Korean is better than the average foreigner, as a result, we're seeing a lot of pro foreigners playing on the Korean server for practice. However, the skill gap betwixt the top foreigners and the top Koreans has closed a tremendous amount. As a result, we're seeing some foreigners do fantastically well in the GSL, with Jinro becoming a regular in the Round of Four, and IdrA always being in contention, and rising stars like HuK, the foreign scene is definitely reaching some level of legitimacy. However, it seems that some won't accept the foreigners who chose to remain at home as being at a competitive level.
This is just wild to me. There are some REALLY good players outside of Korea that I think would do very well if they chose to switch over to playing in Korea, yet there is a decent sized chunk of people who would write them off simply because of where they live/train. To this I have only this to say...the best players will prove themselves, and hopefully soon we'll begin to see top foreigners training outside of Korea and top Koreans training inside of Korea come together and compete on an even ground, and I think that can only be a good thing for e-sports.
Before I wrap up I'd like to add something. Regardless of anything else, support your players guys. Don't write off MLG winners/runner ups, support the shit out of them, and if they face off vs a Korean, cheer your ass off for that player, as well as the Korean if you're a fan. Why would you want foreign players to fail? I will always hold the game as sacred, and hope the better player wins, but that being said, why not hope the home team plays better?
I'd like to introduce you to a mystical land where I live. It's called...
![[image loading]](http://www.infomi.com/michigan.gif)
Michigan
I know, it's a pretty magical land, known for things like A failing automobile industry and rampant unemployment. We have this city in Michigan called Detroit. Now Detroit is home to some fine sports associations. We have the Detroit Redwings, The Detroit Tigers, The Detroit Pistons, then we have the big Daddy...The Detroit Lions. Yes our storied football team. You've probably never heard of us, and if you have, it's undoubtedly because of how bad we are. And I'm not talking about the kind of bad we joke about our hokey team being (that is to say we weren't a game or two from winning the whole league). We are the losing-est orginization in the NFL, yet drive through Detroit and you can't help but to see 10-20 gang shootings, and every one of those guys BLEED Honolulu Blue and Silver. I'm serious, walk into any middle class home in Michigan during game day and you're likely to be greeted by this sight...
![[image loading]](http://www.detroitlionsblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/detroit-lions-fans1.jpg)
Sure, we're a long shot, but we don't stop believing. Take a page out of Journey's book, Team Liquid, and support your players. Weather you want them to win or not, support them. Let them know that you appreciate the work they've put in so you have something cool to watch, and let them know you respect their skill as players. As an IdrA fan, I can't help but to want IdrA to smash all over MorroW, but if Morrow comes up against Boxer in the Ro8, You can bet your ass I'm going to be cheering my heart out for the guy, and if he loses, I'll cheer for boxer too. Every player who plays well and helps out the community deserves your respect and support, even if they're not your favorite to win.
Just my two cents.
*Edit* A lot of people seem to be interpreting what I'm saying as you shouldn't support Korean players, or you should just be a huge fanboy of every non Korean, which isn't what I'm saying. The point I'm trying to make is to support players, especially foreigners. It's just not as socially acceptable outside of Korea to be a pro gamer, it's important that you show support for people who are basically basing A large portion of their lives to this esport we all love. A simple comment on a tournement result page, etc like "you played well, hope you do better next time" or "I think it's cool that you're basing your life on Starcraft, good luck" is so small A thing to do, but so many people don't do it. I think it's great if you love some Korean player and follow him because you love his play, what I'm saying is if your idol MC or whoever faces Tarson in TSL, don't shit on Tarson if he lost, leave a comment on his page and just be like "Yo, it's OK, MC is probably the best protoss in the world right now, and you played well, better luck next time". Or leaving A comment on some dude's page MC is probably going to smash and say "Good Luck", no one wants to play a game where no one gives a shit about them. Hope some people take this to heart.
Thanks.
  
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I think people are stuck in a BW mindset. Sc2 is an easier game so the skill gap isn't as big as it was back then. However a lot of people don't seem to realize this. Maybe after a few years when the strats have been hammered out and you are prepared for all non standard play their hours upon hours of practice might give them the upper edge as the games gets longer it's more important that the mechanics are on top. AKA the hard worker will be payed of. But as for right now I believe anyone can take the TSL but it will probably be a korean or some of the old bw sc2 foreigners if you ask me.
And of course hard work still pay of just that as long as one base is viable it's really anyones game.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
It actually works both ways, sometimes I get so sick of people blind approval of ''foreigners'' while their Korean opponent outplayed them terrifically. Tastosis ain't helping with the overhyping foreigners.
On the other hand, It is not ''hard'' to accept but Koreans in general have better training and they have the culture which accepts E-sports. I'd love to see foreigners do well, maybe at some point we will stop referring to them as foreigners. But for now?Koreans own white dudes 
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I agree with you. Foreigner morale is low right now because of the FXOpen and IEM. But those are just 2 tournaments. I believe upsets will happen in the TSL. Yes the winner will probably be Korean, but some foreigner is about to become a hero for knocking off a Korean-trained player in the first round. In fact, the odds of a non-Korean in the finals is actually quite high since Nestea is the only S class Korean in his side of the bracket and he will likely have to run through a gauntlet of ZvZ's.
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Yes, it's definitely a remnant from Korean BW dominance, which no one can really dispute. While koreans have been arguably more successful in SC2 too, I agree that the divide isn't even close to what it is in BW.
This might just be a coincidence, but even Grrr only competed relatively early in the life of BW, and korean dominance has only grown since then. So it could be because SC2 is still pretty new and the best players (korean or otherwise) haven't had enough time to separate themselves from the pack. But there's no telling what the scene will look like many years down the road. As of now, I personally am more than ready to keep cheering for our foreigners.
P.S. Michigan represent!
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Jinro and huk live in Korea with oGs, IdrA was on CJ before switching to sc2. Most other top foreign players who have tried to play in the gsl have not done very well and quickly gone home. On the other hand the top 4 spots at IEM were swept by players who had just been eliminated from code A in the first round.
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I'd love to finally see a foreigner winning a tournament that does include Koreans. T_T I think Dreamhack is the only one where that happened so far and I wasn't convinced by that win at all.
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There's plenty of good foreigners, but there's alot more koreans at that level, or that are greater than them. Foreigners did alright at the start of BW as well. Only time will tell if they manage to keep up with them or not. I hope that they can.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
Right now all the evidence points to Koreans remaining dominant. Tournament results, ladder difficulty, etc. However, I think that in theory, SC2 should be easier for foreigners to compete in compared to BW because it's less demanding mechanically. This means that practicing for 12+ hours a day like the Koreans won't necessarily give an advantage over someone who only practices only 8 hours (as foreigners tend to do). As Ret even said, he already feels like there's nothing left for him to improve mechanically, he only needs to work on his strategy/decision making now which is why he can continue to improve without being in Korea.
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I feel that some of the support for Koreans in the NASL at least is rooted in a values dilemma that some people hold in that they can't convince themselves of a logical, impartial theory that would exclude Koreans, yet avoid bigotry and racism. They want to give Koreans equal opportunity, but recent results indicate a skill advantage that even top foreign SC2 players mention, so they must admit that NASL may be flooded with Koreans if it wants to uphold sportsmanship and human rights.
Well actually never mind I think I just discussed something completely irrelevant to what you're talking about. You're perplexed at the perceived skill gap between Koreans or resident Korean players and others, right? I agree that part of that is a holdover mentality from the BW community, but since so much of the SC2 community was not influenced first-hand by BW, I don't think that explains everything.
One cause could be just peoples' short-term, trend mentalities in terms of judgment. People tend to value more recent or more mentally salient information as more indicative as truth, even if overall there isn't a great body of information at all. In this case, for example, people will look at something like the recent IEM 2011 as indicative of the skill gap, even though the sample is dwarfed by the sum of tournaments, even recently. Unfortunately, it's hard to make a definitive, evidence-based judgment on this because there is so little actual evidence. There are virtually no large leagues with many games played that are amenable to the competitive desires of players internationally, so there is no international arena to provide insight into international skill levels.
I don't mean to say there's absolutely no evidence. GSL history as well as discussion from many top players of the Korean ladder conditions exist, I just feel that a.) GSL games involving foreigners are few, b.) WotM, even when trusted, is not definitive, c.) the evidence does not exclude other factors such as the logistic difficulty for a top non-Korean player to live in Korea.
In the end, believing in Korean superiority is just as valid as believing in no skill gap.
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On March 17 2011 01:27 EchOne wrote:
I feel that some of the support for Koreans in the NASL at least is rooted in a values dilemma that some people hold in that they can't convince themselves of a logical, impartial theory that would exclude Koreans, yet avoid bigotry and racism. They want to give Koreans equal opportunity, but recent results indicate a skill advantage that even top foreign SC2 players mention, so they must admit that NASL may be flooded with Koreans if it wants to uphold sportsmanship and human rights.
Well actually never mind I think I just discussed something completely irrelevant to what you're talking about. You're perplexed at the perceived skill gap between Koreans or resident Korean players and others, right? I agree that part of that is a holdover mentality from the BW community, but since so much of the SC2 community was not influenced first-hand by BW, I don't think that explains everything.
One cause could be just peoples' short-term, trend mentalities in terms of judgment. People tend to value more recent or more mentally salient information as more indicative as truth, even if overall there isn't a great body of information at all. In this case, for example, people will look at something like the recent IEM 2011 as indicative of the skill gap, even though the sample is dwarfed by the sum of tournaments, even recently. Unfortunately, it's hard to make a definitive, evidence-based judgment on this because there is so little actual evidence. There are virtually no large leagues with many games played that are amenable to the competitive desires of players internationally, so there is no international arena to provide insight into international skill levels.
I don't mean to say there's absolutely no evidence. GSL history as well as discussion from many top players of the Korean ladder conditions exist, I just feel that a.) GSL games involving foreigners are few, b.) WotM, even when trusted, is not definitive, c.) the evidence does not exclude other factors such as the logistic difficulty for a top non-Korean player to live in Korea.
In the end, believing in Korean superiority is just as valid as believing in no skill gap.
I understand at there is a skill gap, and I understand the Korean ladder on average has better players. Even at the very top levels, the best Koreans are probably indeed better than the top non-Koreans, but that skill gap is much smaller than anything in Brood War. I don't quite understand why many perceive the gap as so large that foreigners are inferior, but what I'm perplexed at is the lack of support for foreign players. I watched so many people today bash really good players (Tyler, PainUser, White-Ra, and more) and wrote them off as not having a chance at winning 1 game against code A GSL players. That's really sad, in my opinion. I'd love to see all of the foreign community rally behind these players, rather than dismiss them because of where they train.
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Part of the lack of support in my mind is because a lot of the foreigners say they are the best and they can beat anyone ... yet they don't show results. Obviously some do, but that's only less than a handful.
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On March 17 2011 02:00 lac29 wrote:
Part of the lack of support in my mind is because a lot of the foreigners say they are the best and they can beat anyone ... yet they don't show results. Obviously some do, but that's only less than a handful.
To be fair this is only a handful of foreigners, and most of them are old media players who are actually really good (IdrA, NonY, iNc, etc) almost every European is very softspoken and polite (look at Mondragon's NASL video, he's a legend and is talking about being the worst player in the league, and almost no one talks about that guy, but he's proved in the past that he has a ridiculous amount of skill).
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Completey agree with the OP. I mean, Koreans have the upper edge in general, with their strict training routines and their general acceptance of e-sports. However, SC2 is alot easier mechanically, compared to BW, and the game is flourishing both in North America and in Europe. There isn't that huge skill gap anymore. TSL is everyone's tourney. Sure, Koreans will do great, maybe they'll win, but I wouldn't be so sure yet.
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I never thought the skill gap would be anywhere near where it was in broodwar.
But here we are, with mediocre koreans ripping through IEM brackets as if they were playing random gold noobs. It's impossible to compete with the sort of e-sport infrastructure and culture that the koreans are privileged to have. The team houses will keep producing amazing players and foreigners will have less and less incentive to even bother trying to maintain a living by playing starcraft as more koreans realize there are huge amounts of money to be won with soft competition in foreigner/international tournaments.
I imagine after this TSL there isn't going to be much debate - TL decided to invite some of the absolute top koreans in the world to compete with top europeans/americans. I don't think it's going to be close even by a long shot, the koreans are going to absolutely dominate this and every other foreigner tournament they happen to participate in.
The only way I could see foreigners keeping up with koreans is if there was a good way to establish team houses, but that would require a dedicated lan tournament á pro league or GSL. American society also seems to be less accepting of gaming as a professional competition than korea and europe as of yet.
Also I think there's plenty of depth in starcraft 2 that strict practice regimens and completely enveloping yourself in starcraft the way korean pro's do it allows for them to gain a significant edge in all aspects of the game. Starcraft 2 might not be AS mechanically demanding as starcraft but the skill cap is way above where some people perceive it to be.
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So if the NFL playoffs were invite-only, then I assume you would be in support of Detroit being invited over a legit-playoff caliber team? Would that be fair to the team/teams that don't make it because Detroit got invited? Would Detroit getting blown out in the playoffs be exciting to watch, or more exciting to watch than a genuinely close game?
Just things to consider
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On March 17 2011 01:46 Arisen wrote:
I'd love to see all of the foreign community rally behind these players, rather than dismiss them because of where they train.
You keep on saying that like it's a small little thing. Like there's not gonna be a noticeable different between a player who games on his own in isolation in his basement, and a gamer who lives in a house with 12 other games and lives and breathes starcraft.
One person is living a lifestyle and career, the other is just a time consuming hobby. It's not at all ridiculous to think that the guy who lives in a building dedicated to a game is gonna have a better chance at winning
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Starcraft is a little bit like Football in some regards. The English invented the game, but they`re not the best at it. There`s a magical land called Brazil, and another called The Netherlands. One is filled with people of creative nature, the other one, filled with the best training system in the world. Both have a culture of Football.
Starcraft is an American game, but they`re not the best at it. There`s a magical land called South Korea, where being a nerd is not laughed at. Where, playing a game, it`s something that pretty much everyone does. No ones gonna judge you if you`re playing video games, they`re not gonna label your ass. They have organizations that supports Esport, players who dedicate themselves to the game. And it`s not the only game that they dedicate themselves. To play an RTS, it takes a certain set of skill set. The ability to Multi -task, to think fast, hand coordination, a brain that is constantly on the edge. No one ever thought that they might generally have those skill sets abit more than certain other places in the world? Might be also that people with those skill sets in the West, are doing other stuffs?
Koreans, they also invented most build you see in use. Hypocritical players use those builds than criticize the Korean for player their Korean type of game.
Another thing, why would i care for MorroW more than Fruitdealer. I`m Canadian. I`m not going to care for a guy just because he`s not Korean, it`s like if i liked any non-Brazilian player just because he`s not Brazilian. Wouldn`t make any sense to me. It`s like if you would like every non-Canadian players in Hockey just because they`re not Canadian. It`s the same thing here.
It`s absurd, irrational, xenophobic and just plain dumb. If MorroW was an amazing player, i would cheer for the guy, but the little unjustified foreigner Schism has to stop. It`s ridiculous.
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On March 17 2011 04:01 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 01:46 Arisen wrote:
I'd love to see all of the foreign community rally behind these players, rather than dismiss them because of where they train.
You keep on saying that like it's a small little thing. Like there's not gonna be a noticeable different between a player who games on his own in isolation in his basement, and a gamer who lives in a house with 12 other games and lives and breathes starcraft. One person is living a lifestyle and career, the other is just a time consuming hobby. It's not at all ridiculous to think that the guy who lives in a building dedicated to a game is gonna have a better chance at winning
IdrA seems to be doing very well for himself without a team house, as does tyler, and white-ra. Like I said, I'm not saying there isn't a difference in the skill level of the two, but it's small enough where a top non-Korean can absolutely take games off of top Koreans, and even take the series off the player.
As to the guy who asked if the playoffs were invitation only, well, they're not, they're based off results, and obviously results will figure heavily into NASL's choice of invites. I would only hope the people finishing top 5 MLG nationals, semi-finals and up in NA and European LANs would get equal opportunity at least, if not better chances than JoeBlow 635 who's only achievement was qualifying code A and bouncing early. Obviously there are very talented code A players who would absolutely be an asset to any starleague.
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On March 17 2011 04:01 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
Starcraft is a little bit like Football in some regards. The English invented the game, but they`re not the best at it. There`s a magical land called Brazil, and another called The Netherlands. One is filled with people of creative nature, the other one, filled with the best training system in the world. Both have a culture of Football.
Starcraft is an American game, but they`re not the best at it. There`s a magical land called South Korea, where being a nerd is not laughed at. Where, playing a game, it`s something that pretty much everyone does. No ones gonna judge you if you`re playing video games, they`re not gonna label your ass. They have organizations that supports Esport, players who dedicate themselves to the game. And it`s not the only game that they dedicate themselves. To play an RTS, it takes a certain set of skill set. The ability to Multi -task, to think fast, hand coordination, a brain that is constantly on the edge. No one ever thought that they might generally have those skill sets abit more than certain other places in the world? Might be also that people with those skill sets in the West, are doing other stuffs?
Koreans, they also invented most build you see in use. Hypocritical players use those builds than criticize the Korean for player their Korean type of game.
Another thing, why would i care for MorroW more than Fruitdealer. I`m Canadian. I`m not going to care for a guy just because he`s not Korean, it`s like if i liked any non-Brazilian player just because he`s not Brazilian. Wouldn`t make any sense to me. It`s like if you would like every non-Canadian players in Hockey just because they`re not Canadian. It`s the same thing here.
It`s absurd, irrational, xenophobic and just plain dumb. If MorroW was an amazing player, i would cheer for the guy, but the little unjustified foreigner Schism has to stop. It`s ridiculous.
Who criticies Koreans for playing well? I can't think of anyone. I'm not advocating bashing Koreans, I'm advocating supporting foreigners and Koreans, If we're ever going to have a pro scene anywhere near where we want it, it's not going to be done with this attitude. Why will pro players want to keep playing if people just keep shitting on them because MC or MVP might be better? I'm advocating supporting players and respecting them for what they do, which a lot of people aren't doing right now
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EPT
