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THE_DOMINATOR
United States309 Posts
On March 12 2011 00:48 Impervious wrote: If he's in the US, what would you expect? The US has a variety of tasty beers that you sir are quite ignorant of. EDIT: Also who the hell are you asshats to decide what is "right" and what is "wrong" for other people you don't even know. I say if he can handle it responsibly then cheers! | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
On March 12 2011 05:19 419 wrote: No, its what some of them choose to do. Its not like being high-school age is a medical condition. Somehow breaking the law and drinking isn't my idea of a good time (I surmise I'm close the OP's age too) but I guess that means I'm going to fuck up later in life based on an informal poll of TL blog poster's opinions ~ Its ok 419, you are almost there. 420. | ||
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
On March 12 2011 11:08 THE_DOMINATOR wrote: The US has a variety of tasty beers that you sir are quite ignorant of. EDIT: Also who the hell are you asshats to decide what is "right" and what is "wrong" for other people you don't even know. I say if he can handle it responsibly then cheers! Holy fuck finally someone with common fucking sense. Thank you. | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On March 12 2011 11:32 Amnesia wrote: Holy fuck finally someone with common fucking sense. Thank you. killing yourself typically = wrong, especially from a parent's perspective, which is exactly what we're talking about here. not sure what you're condoning, but to each their own i guess. | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
anyway i don't see the problem with drinking some and doing pot, as long as you know what you're doing and being responsible about it. and be safe about it (be with responsible friends, safe environment) , don't do it excessively. i did both in high school, and i proceeded to drink less and less in university cuz i already did it so many times before i was getting sick of it. so basically just be careful and dont hurt yourself or anyone else if you're going to smoke pot and drink | ||
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
On March 12 2011 11:50 fush wrote: killing yourself typically = wrong, especially from a parent's perspective, which is exactly what we're talking about here. not sure what you're condoning, but to each their own i guess. it's called drink and smoke in moderation then is it still called "killing yourself"? also what is this about smoking weed that kills you? as far as I know, it doesn't have negative effects towards health. marijuana contains anti-inflamatory, antioxidants, and probably anti-cancer compounds. http://video.pbs.org/video/1825223761 :/ | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On March 12 2011 12:07 Amnesia wrote: it's called drink and smoke in moderation then is it still called "killing yourself"? also what is this about smoking weed that kills you? as far as I know, it doesn't have negative effects towards health. marijuana contains anti-inflamatory, antioxidants, and probably anti-cancer compounds. http://video.pbs.org/video/1825223761 :/ the pbs doc is a natural media sensationalist approach to something that isn't even remotely close to clinical study. they touch on therapeutic value for cannabis, mostly because of endocannabinoids, but CB receptors are found in so many systems that you can't simply conclude that experiments on cell culture will have the same effect in vivo. i don't study this personally though i do work in neuroscience and know that much. cannabinoids are naturally occurring and heavily regulated for a purpose. pumping your body full of them doesn't do you good, just because in cell culture they happen to kill cancerous cells. a lot of things do - yet we haven't exactly found a cure yet have we? as for anti-inflammatory agents and antioxidants, you really think there are no better choices than an addictive and neurotoxic drug? | ||
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
Not saying that we should all smoke weed because it has benefits according to research, but you were the one that said weed = "killing yourself" but I fail to see your point on why it is harmful. | ||
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masami.sc
United States445 Posts
On March 12 2011 12:26 fush wrote: the pbs doc is a natural media sensationalist approach to something that isn't even remotely close to clinical study. they touch on therapeutic value for cannabis, mostly because of endocannabinoids, but CB receptors are found in so many systems that you can't simply conclude that experiments on cell culture will have the same effect in vivo. i don't study this personally though i do work in neuroscience and know that much. cannabinoids are naturally occurring and heavily regulated for a purpose. pumping your body full of them doesn't do you good, just because in cell culture they happen to kill cancerous cells. a lot of things do - yet we haven't exactly found a cure yet have we? as for anti-inflammatory agents and antioxidants, you really think there are no better choices than an addictive and neurotoxic drug? First of all, weed is not nearly addictive or harmful as other drugs, such as cigarettes, alcohol, crack, heroin, etc. As for its neurotoxicity - I would have to see some evidence for that. Neurotoxicity suggests that large doses of marijuana would alter the normal activity of the nervous system in such a way as to cause damage to nervous tissue. But this is obviously not the case. Even smoking large doses of marijuana will not lead to an overdose or lasting brain damage. In fact, it would require such an outrageous amount of THC that you would asphyxiate yourself before you could overdose on weed. That doesn't seem very toxic to me, now, does it? Smokers are, generally, functioning members of society. There are doctors and lawyers who smoke weed, and your parents probably smoked a ton of weed in the 60's. As for the morality of smoking weed - it's really not for anybody to decide. It's a personal decision, and I'm afraid that, in the end, opinions on the morality of using drugs is irrelevant. People will be people, and everyone will always have their opinions. I think it's best to accept the fact that everybody in this world is a unique individual with sovereign control over their actions. Parents will be parents, but their opinions do not justify a subject matter's inherent morality - for our parents are only human, are they not? | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On March 12 2011 12:41 Amnesia wrote: Marijuana is addictive? I'm not sure about that, but it depends on what kind of addiction we're talking about: mental or physical. Mental addiction only goes to a certain degree imo - not smoking for awhile at first might suck, but it is nothing hard. You just...don't really think about it. Physical addiction? Close to impossible. I've had many instances in my life where I've smoked daily for months then have to quit for an indefinite period of time due to personal reasons, such as drug testing for jobs, or even a quick break because I need to study for exams. This is not just me - I know plenty of others who smoke like I do and have quit with relative ease. Not saying that we should all smoke weed because it has benefits according to research, but you were the one that said weed = "killing yourself" but I fail to see your point on why it is harmful. you want me to find you research papers on that addiction claim? both clinical and basic science, there's many detailing not just addictive properties but sooooo many other psychotic effects. i do research in tobacco smoking, not cannabis, but there can obviously be populations that are more resistant to addictive properties in cannabis. as an example there's a sizeable portion of smokers who are "chippers", who don't display nicotine dependence or its psychostimulatory effects, and can quit on a whim. no reason why you can't possibly be part of this kind of population when it comes to other drugs. but let's think outside of yourself here, you think marijuana would be such a sensitive topic if everyone were like you? as for "killing yourself", i'm talking about not just cannabis but also the general lifestyle that is being condoned. the attitude of "live freely" given to adolescents doesn't have to be bad, but when it comes to substance abuse the line has to be drawn. you think there isn't a relationship between marijuana use and abuse of other "heavier" drugs? honestly, you seem like a sensible person but there are others who are far less controlled in their intake and will develop serious problems. advocating this lifestyle isn't going to help. | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On March 12 2011 12:45 masami.sc wrote: First of all, weed is not nearly addictive or harmful as other drugs, such as cigarettes, alcohol, crack, heroin, etc. As for its neurotoxicity - I would have to see some evidence for that. Neurotoxicity suggests that large doses of marijuana would alter the normal activity of the nervous system in such a way as to cause damage to nervous tissue. But this is obviously not the case. Even smoking large doses of marijuana will not lead to an overdose or lasting brain damage. In fact, it would require such an outrageous amount of THC that you would asphyxiate yourself before you could overdose on weed. That doesn't seem very toxic to me, now, does it? Smokers are, generally, functioning members of society. There are doctors and lawyers who smoke weed, and your parents probably smoked a ton of weed in the 60's. As for the morality of smoking weed - it's really not for anybody to decide. It's a personal decision, and I'm afraid that, in the end, opinions on the morality of using drugs is irrelevant. People will be people, and everyone will always have their opinions. I think it's best to accept the fact that everybody in this world is a unique individual with sovereign control over their actions. Parents will be parents, but their opinions do not justify a subject matter's inherent morality - for our parents are only human, are they not? Got access to medical journals? lemme drop this on you. clinical studies: Arseneault et al. 2002; van Os et al. 2002; Zammit et al. 2002; Henquet et al. 2005 -> cannabis use and psychosis and schizophrenia Arseneault et al. 2004 -> 2x risk of schiz onset with 20 times of cannabis use in life D'Souza et al. 2004; Koethe et al. 2006 -> delta-9-THC (found in cannabis) given to human subjects either orally or IV, they developed "cognitive disturbances" and schiz characteristics Henquet et al. 2006 -> large clinical study (n > 4k) found increase risk of cannabis use and manic symptoms in bipolar disorder Aharonovich, Nguyen & Nunes 2001 -> link for cannabis use to major depression Brook, Cohen & Brook 1998; McGee et al. 2000; Bovasso 2001; Fergusson, Horwood & Swain-Campbell 2002; Patton et al. 2002 -> link to anxiety there are tons of basic science studies with CB receptors that can be linked to cannabinoids in cannabis, but there are so many other components that haven't been looked at which may have effects in the brain, but since eCB have actual physiological relevance in healthy humans as well, most of the effort has been put there. (much like how mostly nicotine is studied in the brain, as compared to the thousands of poisons) and your idea of neurotoxicity is a bit incorrect. it doesn't just mean a large dose has to have dramatic and immediate detrimental effects my friend. no one will expect the majority of people to binge smoke a whole lot of joints and use that as a platform to conduct studies. we're talking about physiologically relevant concentrations in the brain and their slow effects that will lead to long lasting developmental changes here. no one turns psychotic overnight. | ||
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Crazyeyes
Canada1342 Posts
I know that some studies suggest that LSD can bring forth mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, but this seems to only be the case with a history of such things in the family. From what I understood, in this case, you already had it, but the LSD is just 'activating it,' and not actually 'causing it.' Is it a similar case with these cannabis studies? And yes, I could just search those studies up and read them myself but that would take quite a while and it seems you already have a decent amount of knowledge here. I'm not expecting some super complicated response, moreso just some quick general answers that you already know the answers to. | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On March 12 2011 13:30 Crazyeyes wrote: Interesting, I've never heard of any 'real' damage/harm caused by cannabis before. The schizophrenia thing especially caught my eye. Do these studies suggest permanent damage? Does that even make sense? "Temporary schizophrenia"? How common are these side effects? I know that some studies suggest that LSD can bring forth mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, but this seems to only be the case with a history of such things in the family. From what I understood, in this case, you already had it, but the LSD is just 'activating it,' and not actually 'causing it.' Is it a similar case with these cannabis studies? And yes, I could just search those studies up and read them myself but that would take quite a while and it seems you already have a decent amount of knowledge here. I'm not expecting some super complicated response, moreso just some quick general answers that you already know the answers to. i actually have little to no knowledge in clinical studies related to cannabis, sorry  (i work in the nicotine field, some addiction, some attention)i really just dug those up from a couple of reviews i can point you to, but that's about it. most of the clinical studies i listed are population meta-analyses that show the correlation rather than a direct effect. i'm as surprised as you about the D'Souza study, not too sure how they managed to get that study done, but i don't think the effects were permanent - took a quick glance just now and they mention that these are transient effects measured 200 min after intake. my understanding of schiz was also that it was something that you are predisposed to, but not really induceable. in this case, i'm assuming the direct effects they see are just psychosis that resemble what's seen in schizophrenia, though other studies would suggest a comorbidity between cannabis use and schiz. i'd have to read that paper in depth to answer these questions, though i figure just reading those papers yourself will give you a better answer than i can give. reason why i looked those up was really just to show that not all is fine and dandy with cannabis use. | ||
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Crazyeyes
Canada1342 Posts
I do think that eventually, something will be strongly linked to cannabis. I find it hard to believe that it has _no_ negative side effects whatsoever. I don't, however, believe whatever this is will be a huge problem. Yes, everything is bad in excess. Cannabis is no exception. But that is no reason to copmletely avoid it. I liked JackMcCoy's post (the one with the massive list of 'bad things'), moreso becuase it was funny than anything else. There are so many things that are harmful to you. Does this mean that it's a good thing to use them? No. "Sure XX is bad for you, but YY is worse, so its okay to use XX." That logic is terrible. But if you were to avoid anything and everything that was bad for you, in my opinion, you'd lead a terribly boring life. This is what I believe is meant by 'live a little'. I mean BARBECUED MEAT was on that list! (Since the list was alphabetical, I'm assuming he copied/pasted it and is at least somewhat accurate). | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
Smoking on the other hand can hurt you. Marijuana less so than tobacco. Either isn't a super good choice. | ||
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masami.sc
United States445 Posts
And in my opinion, cannabis's link with schizophrenia is pretty weak; anybody can do a study linking a certain substance to schizophrenia. Drinking, having sex, smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee, masturbating, etc. There are so many activities that release dopamine in your brain or somehow slightly alter your brain chemistry. Most biologists agree that schizophrenia is hereditary, and develops as a result of an interplay between one's biological predisposition (for example, inheriting certain genes) and the kind of environment he is exposed to. And also, obviously if your family has a history of psychosis you shouldn't smoke! It seems pretty simple to me... | ||
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HeadhunteR
Argentina1258 Posts
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EdSlyB
Portugal1621 Posts
Besides: smoking f*cking kills you so if I was you I would try to quit smoking yesterday. Use your smarts. | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On March 12 2011 15:59 masami.sc wrote: Smoking cannabis does not causes schizophrenia in normal, healthy people over the age of 18. In any case, all the studies show an increased RISK. The percentages don't indicate the number of people who actually end up with schizophrenia - it just states their increased odds for psychosis. And in my opinion, cannabis's link with schizophrenia is pretty weak; anybody can do a study linking a certain substance to schizophrenia. Drinking, having sex, smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee, masturbating, etc. There are so many activities that release dopamine in your brain or somehow slightly alter your brain chemistry. Most biologists agree that schizophrenia is hereditary, and develops as a result of an interplay between one's biological predisposition (for example, inheriting certain genes) and the kind of environment he is exposed to. And also, obviously if your family has a history of psychosis you shouldn't smoke! It seems pretty simple to me... well technically you're dismissing all associative meta-analyses studies? all they do is find correlations, but that's where the research is and it's a good first step to find more specific effects is it not? like i mentioned, i also thought the onset of schiz is more of a genetic thing, but linking cannabis use to increased risk of onset is a pretty good tell that something is going on. again, schiz is only one of the things in that list, and it makes sense since CB receptors are everywhere, and eCB are just one active ingredient in cannabis. the main point is that despite what you think you know, advocating a "free" lifestyle involving drug use is not a good thing. | ||
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Jimmy Raynor
902 Posts
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