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Your picture doesn't illustrate how players get pushed out of Code S/A 
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You are right, neither does it illustrate the volatility of the process.
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The system is pretty wonky...once you get into code S you stay there for a while unless you are completely outclassed... =/
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That looks like a giant colon. I'm not going to go any farther with that analogy.
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I think the Korean scene would really benefit from a few more competitions other than GSL.
BW wasn't just centered around the famous OSL. Proleague and MSL may have been lesser tournaments, but they still were big enough to expose many lesser players to the spotlight and start their gaming careers.
GSTL was a good step towards a Proleague-like system, and some of the lesser non-GSL tournaments also produce some decent results that reinforce the dominant players and introduce some powerful no-names.
However, many of the lesser Korean tournaments aren't broadcast or streamed outside of Korea, which is a great shame since they probably produce Code S-level players playing Code S-level matches on a regular basis.
IMO, there should be more streams and broadcasts of non-GSL tournaments from Korea to compensate for the bottlenecks in GSL.
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I just get so annoyed when people spit out comments like "he's not even that good, only Code A" when even Code A is suuuch a huge accomplishment. Even being on a team. Most of those players deserve all the respect in the world, and people just shit on them with their comments about how they're "not even good".
If you're going to say that a progamer isn't very good, you better have a damn good reason.
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5 starred for amusing me with the drawing
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In BW, top foreigners (except IdrA) could be stomped heavily by random korean girls ( F91 vs  ToSsGirL, I mean). They could give good games to korean semi-pros or amateurs (Ret in courage, Nony in courage etc.). In SC2, the newcomer korean kids know that foreigners were no match for koreans and they try to live up to that reputiation. So, code a dropouts like Ace and Moon can stomp every single foreigner on their way. I learned to live with it and thus don't expect foreigners to be close to koreans after 1-2 years (when it was BW, it also started out the same. At the end, we had koreans 1-2-3'ing every single WCG).
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Oh so thats how a womb look like o.o
On a serious note, I am kinda confused with the diagram. How it's supposed to work?
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So you're saying the transitive property annoys you?
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On March 10 2011 02:54 Djagulingu wrote:In BW, top foreigners (except IdrA) could be stomped heavily by random korean girls ( F91 vs ToSsGirL, I mean).
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I find that sentece hilarious, because I mainly rememeber F91 for stomping Idra in a showmatch, which resulted in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342.
As for your diagramm, I also think that it is not easy enough to go from code A to Code S and conversely.
I mean in BW, a random gy can go from qualifier to winning the championship the same season, and it happened a few time. It is much more exciting I think...
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On March 10 2011 03:09 Enervate wrote:
So you're saying the transitive property annoys you?
Claiming transitivity of skill annoys everyone and need not be commented on.
What i don't like here is using being in Code A/S as a measure of skill.
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On March 10 2011 02:54 Djagulingu wrote:In BW, top foreigners (except IdrA) could be stomped heavily by random korean girls ( F91 vs ToSsGirL, I mean). They could give good games to korean semi-pros or amateurs (Ret in courage, Nony in courage etc.). In SC2, the newcomer korean kids know that foreigners were no match for koreans and they try to live up to that reputiation. So, code a dropouts like Ace and Moon can stomp every single foreigner on their way. I learned to live with it and thus don't expect foreigners to be close to koreans after 1-2 years (when it was BW, it also started out the same. At the end, we had koreans 1-2-3'ing every single WCG).
1. If by 'random korean girls' you mean the best female gamer in the history of BW progaming, then I guess TossGirl fits your definition.
2. The weakened importance of mechanics in SC2 heavily suggests that the sheer amount of practice isn't the key to success, like it was in BW, which was basically the only reason Koreans dominated everything.
Also, so far, we haven't had a proper way of measuring the foreigner scene against the Korean scene; all we've had were a few foreigners that did solid in the GSL (Jinro's double semifinal) and a few Koreans doing good in some foreign events.
That's too small of a sample to draw any real conclusions.
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On March 10 2011 02:41 ReketSomething wrote:
The system is pretty wonky...once you get into code S you stay there for a while unless you are completely outclassed... =/
You mean + Show Spoiler +how IMMVP, IMNestea, SlayerS_BoxeR, TSL_FruitDealer, and et al. could potentially lose their spot this season with some upsets?
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On March 10 2011 02:41 ReketSomething wrote:
The system is pretty wonky...once you get into code S you stay there for a while unless you are completely outclassed... =/
Yeah, you mean how 25% of all CodeS players (all who placed 4th in group stages) are only one BO3 away from playing in Code A next season?
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On March 10 2011 03:04 yrag89 wrote:
Oh so thats how a womb look like o.o
On a serious note, I am kinda confused with the diagram. How it's supposed to work?
Imagine the bowls beeing filled with marbels whose inverse mass represent the player's skill. You have to shake quite some time until all light marbels are in the Code S bowl. The randomness would represent the volatility of the young game ( beating someone by discovering a new build etc. ( hello zeeraxx)) and the randomness of the who plays wohm.
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On March 10 2011 03:15 aqui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 03:09 Enervate wrote:
So you're saying the transitive property annoys you? Claiming transitivity of skill annoys everyone and need not be commented on. What i don't like here is using being in Code A/S as a measure of skill.
Transitivity of skill does not annoy me. Broad generalizations, however, do.
Tournaments are built around the concept of transitivity of skill. Not every player gets to play every other player.
I'm not saying people are necessarily correct when they say a Code S player is way better than someone else. Just that it's not baseless.
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On March 10 2011 03:21 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 02:41 ReketSomething wrote:
The system is pretty wonky...once you get into code S you stay there for a while unless you are completely outclassed... =/ Yeah, you mean how 25% of all CodeS players (all who placed 4th in group stages) are only one BO3 away from playing in Code A next season?
Comparing to the BW scene, if you fail, you get dropped...theres no real second changes The point is that you lose against 3 people, then you get a second chance and then lose against the 4th and THEN you are out. And to move up you need to pass through SOOO many stages as well =/
It kinda sucks that players that will only have lets say a summer in korea will not have a chance to win Code S or anything.
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On March 10 2011 03:17 niteReloaded wrote:
2. The weakened importance of mechanics in SC2 heavily suggests that the sheer amount of practice isn't the key to success, like it was in BW, which was basically the only reason Koreans dominated everything.
Also, so far, we haven't had a proper way of measuring the foreigner scene against the Korean scene; all we've had were a few foreigners that did solid in the GSL (Jinro's double semifinal) and a few Koreans doing good in some foreign events.
That's too small of a sample to draw any real conclusions.
When will it be okay to talk about the comparative skill level? This year we had the Kaspersky Invitational, Assembly, two FXOpen events and IEM. Foreigners competing in the GSL have had a significant amount of time in Korea(and obviously that's what this argument is about, not Korean genes) except for Moonglade. Last year, GSL1(because of TLO), Dreamhack, and... King of the Beta? If you want to count that as a release event. Just wondering how much of a sample size we need and what kind of tournaments will count for this.
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Amusing illustration 
I think it is wierd that code S players get two shots in the up and down matches, there is a risk that the play will stagnate in there with so little new blood every season.
+ Show Spoiler +What are they holding in their hands? :S
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Are you implying all Koreans look the same?
Racist.
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On March 10 2011 03:52 DumEN wrote:Amusing illustration I think it is wierd that code S players get two shots in the up and down matches, there is a risk that the play will stagnate in there with so little new blood every season. + Show Spoiler +What are they holding in their hands? :S
for Code S it is 3rd place in RO32 gets 2 shots. 4th place in RO32 gets 1 shot.
Top 8 Code A players get 2 shots.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Code A players stomped the shit out of Code S players in GSTL (something like 12-2 in direct a vs s games). Ideally the "not even code S yet" thing would work but the system isn't quite there, as people note whenever this gets brought up.
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On March 10 2011 03:30 Enervate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 03:15 aqui wrote:On March 10 2011 03:09 Enervate wrote:
So you're saying the transitive property annoys you? Claiming transitivity of skill annoys everyone and need not be commented on. What i don't like here is using being in Code A/S as a measure of skill. Transitivity of skill does not annoy me. Broad generalizations, however, do. Tournaments are built around the concept of transitivity of skill. Not every player gets to play every other player. I'm not saying people are necessarily correct when they say a Code S player is way better than someone else. Just that it's not baseless.
I don't disagree with you. I have added an explanation of what i meant to the op.
What i meant when talking about transitivity was just statements like "player A (e.g. zerg) is better than B(e.g. protoss) because A beat C(terran) who beat B. " which ofc few people make. But that wasn't the op's topic.
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Is it just me or is nearly everyone in those kinds of topics lack any civility or actual mannerism to make a convincing argument.
It always falls along the lines of: "XYZ Korean will win because of his ethnic background, dedicated time and because he plays XYZ race with these XYZ abusive units"
Whatever happened to talking about the potential of maps in the match-up? How it'll sway an advantage towards or the other? How one's key talent in either placement, scouting abilities and use of units and understanding of timing will inflict a difficulty on his opponent.
Why must everything be simplified by the common views that lack any sort of substance?
Deviating a bit, but there you go.
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On March 10 2011 03:48 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 03:17 niteReloaded wrote:
2. The weakened importance of mechanics in SC2 heavily suggests that the sheer amount of practice isn't the key to success, like it was in BW, which was basically the only reason Koreans dominated everything.
Also, so far, we haven't had a proper way of measuring the foreigner scene against the Korean scene; all we've had were a few foreigners that did solid in the GSL (Jinro's double semifinal) and a few Koreans doing good in some foreign events.
That's too small of a sample to draw any real conclusions. When will it be okay to talk about the comparative skill level? This year we had the Kaspersky Invitational, Assembly, two FXOpen events and IEM. Foreigners competing in the GSL have had a significant amount of time in Korea(and obviously that's what this argument is about, not Korean genes) except for Moonglade. Last year, GSL1(because of TLO), Dreamhack, and... King of the Beta? If you want to count that as a release event. Just wondering how much of a sample size we need and what kind of tournaments will count for this.
Personally, I'm hoping for some sort of global division for the soon-to-be-introduced grandmasters rank. One season of a true global ladder would show us so much.
If something like that doesn't happen, we'll just have to wait a bit more.. give it another year before having confidence in claiming that Koreans are superior.
It's why TSL will be so interesting, it'll provide plenty of Korean vs Foreigner action for the people to speculate with.
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It is annoying, as we've seen from GSTL and etc, Code A players CAN take wins off Code S players. Its not like BW, where the difference between A team and B team is so large.
I think Code A and Code S should be considered similar; but the "difference" should be for the Ro16 or Ro8 Code S people; those ones (MC, July, Jinro, MVP, Nestea, etc) are on the next level. The lower Code S players should be considered the same as Code A
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On March 10 2011 04:17 Skyze wrote:
It is annoying, as we've seen from GSTL and etc, Code A players CAN take wins off Code S players. Its not like BW, where the difference between A team and B team is so large.
I think Code A and Code S should be considered similar; but the "difference" should be for the Ro16 or Ro8 Code S people; those ones (MC, July, Jinro, MVP, Nestea, etc) are on the next level. The lower Code S players should be considered the same as Code A
Pretty much.
I hate to be the guy who says how he guessed right, but the moment I saw that the 4th placed Code S player from the group stages only gets one BO3 to stay in Code S was the moment I realized Code A is gonna be a scary place.
This system won't be like other's we've seen in BW so far, where there was the top league and then all sorts of B teams.
Code S in SC2 is more like what Champions League is in Soccer. It's creme de la creme, and there's a shitload of super strong teams that don't get to play it regularly, but they have their own national divisions to compete in which are also super, super strong.
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Well that's why we have NASL right? Korea has this massive gaming culture that no other country has. If NASL is popular and starts attracting more kids to try out SCII, foreigners (in general) will reach much higher skill levels too.
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On March 10 2011 04:31 synapse wrote:
Well that's why we have NASL right? Korea has this massive gaming culture that no other country has. If NASL is popular and starts attracting more kids to try out SCII, foreigners (in general) will reach much higher skill levels too.
I really hope so. I don't have any problems relating to Koreans as some people seem to but I'd love to have a really big international scene where events like WCG are competitive and fun and there's just tons of amazing players. Unfortunately I think Korea is just a few steps ahead right at the moment.
I'm optimistic about foreigners in SC2, though. We can do it.
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On March 10 2011 02:54 Djagulingu wrote:In BW, top foreigners (except IdrA) could be stomped heavily by random korean girls ( F91 vs ToSsGirL, I mean). They could give good games to korean semi-pros or amateurs (Ret in courage, Nony in courage etc.). In SC2, the newcomer korean kids know that foreigners were no match for koreans and they try to live up to that reputiation. So, code a dropouts like Ace and Moon can stomp every single foreigner on their way. I learned to live with it and thus don't expect foreigners to be close to koreans after 1-2 years (when it was BW, it also started out the same. At the end, we had koreans 1-2-3'ing every single WCG).
Not quite, WCG 2009 and 2008, along with IeSF proved that Koreans are beatable by foreigners
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United States10328 Posts
5/5 what a good diagram
and what a good analogy to marbles... LIGHT MARBLES RISING
physics at work!
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On March 10 2011 06:31 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 02:54 Djagulingu wrote:In BW, top foreigners (except IdrA) could be stomped heavily by random korean girls ( F91 vs ToSsGirL, I mean). They could give good games to korean semi-pros or amateurs (Ret in courage, Nony in courage etc.). In SC2, the newcomer korean kids know that foreigners were no match for koreans and they try to live up to that reputiation. So, code a dropouts like Ace and Moon can stomp every single foreigner on their way. I learned to live with it and thus don't expect foreigners to be close to koreans after 1-2 years (when it was BW, it also started out the same. At the end, we had koreans 1-2-3'ing every single WCG). Not quite, WCG 2009 and 2008, along with IeSF proved that Koreans are beatable by foreigners
Yeah sure, us foreigners could take a couple of games off of those Koreans once in a while, but it was happened sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo occasionally that I'm sure a bunch of us foreigner fans would nearly have a heart attack when a foreigner would win...
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On March 10 2011 03:17 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 02:41 ReketSomething wrote:
The system is pretty wonky...once you get into code S you stay there for a while unless you are completely outclassed... =/ You mean + Show Spoiler +how IMMVP, IMNestea, SlayerS_BoxeR, TSL_FruitDealer, and et al. could potentially lose their spot this season with some upsets?
+ Show Spoiler +and et al = and and others
Generally I think the code system is good, but I have some pretty big issues with what happens in between code A and code S, and code A and "code B". It just seems like the random trash in S takes far too long to fall down to A, and A to B. Though, now I'm sort of happy it does, or we'd never have discovered MANzenith.
As for Korea > foreigners, I don't buy it. In BW the difference was huge. Ridiculously huge. So far I haven't seen any evidence that it'll be like that for SC2 - I believe after the foreign scene becomes more stable and regular with all the new leagues, we'll see foreign players do better. I think that's what may make the difference.
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On March 10 2011 04:31 synapse wrote:
Well that's why we have NASL right? Korea has this massive gaming culture that no other country has. If NASL is popular and starts attracting more kids to try out SCII, foreigners (in general) will reach much higher skill levels too.
but what happens when a few koreans come and dominate the entire thing.
it would do the opposite for the foriegn scene causeing more people to believe that its not worth it to compete against koreans.
dont get me wrong im not saying koreans are the be all and end all. but there are plenty of people out there that once they see koreans dominate every tournement will get put off sc2.
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This is a weird thread. You're rallying against people that say
"lolol foreigners even lose to code A dropouts"
and then you go on to draw a diagram and make a convoluted argument about how code A and code S are only going to get MORE skilled? Foreigeners are going to have LESS of a chance?
LOL
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1298/codes.jpg)
