So... With 1.3 patch notes there is the announcement of including an alert for macro mechanics. To me I see this as a huge step in the complete wrong direction for the game. As far as I see it, the main reason macro mechanics were included in SC2 were to put some measure skill back into macro after taking it out with automine and MBS. By removing this, it seems that there is absolutely no point to macro mechanics whatsoever at this point.
As a result the skill gap is lessened and while many low level players might not realize it, at the pro level it is pretty clear that there are an incredible number of large upsets happening simply because maps/spawn positions, and random choice of strategy plays a larger role than actual skill at the game (Look at the TL open if you don't believe me, look at the number of gosus knocked out in the first round by nobodies...). As an ex-BW player, I hate to go back to the whole wanting the two games to be identical, because I dont, but BW was a pretty well balanced game that had a very high skill requirement and thus a relatively low level of regular upsets.
Thus I just want to say that macro mechanics and other aspects of the game should be made HARDER not EASIER. I'm not saying that upsets aren't a key part of the game, and yes there should be a chance that a 3200 masters can beat a 3900 masters player in a bo3 but when the game is such a huge eSport it should be that more often than not the best player in a tournament should make the finals.
It's funny how much skill and practice is needed, just to be considered bad in BW :-) The solution to your rant is simple-the best multiplayer game ever is still here...waiting for your return...
You just have to let it go. I was praying during release that blizzard change up the game mechanics. I still am not a big fan of mbs and smart cast but it is what it is.
On February 27 2011 10:58 schiznak wrote: I remember back when everyone was saying that MBS and infinite unit selection was the death of sc2.
The sky isnt falling.
Yes, these things have created a different game, and I'm not saying that it will ruin the game I'm simply stating what I think the current state of the game is and how implementing this is only making a key issue worse. I have not played with this alert, it could have little influence on what happens but it seems to me like it adds little to the game and could potentially make macro TOO easy. They are adding to the oversimplification of macro and it means that the need for speed and skill is much less important than the need for having a superior strategy to your opponent. This to me is an issue because it is making the game more luck-based rather than skill-based.
Let me repeat to you a part of your own blog-the only reason macro mechanics are in the game is that it compensates for the addition of automine and mbs.
This is the most faulty part of your reasoning. Its 2010 now. Blizzard should NOT compensate for removing automine and MBS. you put in automine and MBS by default. Its 2010 now, not 1998. Blizzard never thought "we removed automine and mbs and now we have to compensate for that by making the game harder in other areas." The game is more frustrating without automine and mbs, not just harder.
The macro mechanic notification may make things a little easier for players, but the inclusion of larger maps to the map pool will make the game more difficult. Larger maps extend the length of the game and also tax pro skills like multitasking. The difficulty imposed by larger maps far outstrips the effect of a small addition like macro notifications.
This change isn't a very big deal. There already was a macro mechanic notification-the plop of the larvae, the disappearing of the chrono slinky, and the mechanical breakdown of the mule. These were all very loud, but you can really only notice them when your camera was near the location of the event. Now, they can be "heard" globally.
Yeah, I think it comes down to how big a role we want mechanics to play in the game. Personally, I love mechanically demanding games, and if Blizzard turns the game into a purely rock paper scissors mind game with people clicking as fast as they can (APM is not mechanics) to do what is set in stone, I'll be very disappointed. That is not what I see StarCraft as currently, StarCraft is a game of economy, army building, teching, and of combat. If Blizzard simplifies everything down in this way, we'll be left with... teching and combat, with the rest being trivialized.
I feel that you're overestimating the effect of the macro mechanic alert. It's only visual, isn't it? Warp gates have had a visual indicator that they're ready since forever, but people miss warp-ins constantly.
Have you played on the PTR with these macro notifications? If they affect your play, then it's worth discussing them. If not, then perhaps they won't have as big an impact as people assume. From what I've played, it's still quite easy to forget the macro mechanics even with the notifications, especially in the late game. The notifications do help in the early game, but their benefits diminish as the game goes on.
The in-game clock had a similar amount of criticism when it first debuted in a previous patch. It certainly did help noobs react more effectively to timings, but pros already had most of their timings internalized. The clock really only affected the early game when dealing with specific timings, but it becomes a negligible feature once the game goes beyond the early game.
As far as upsets in tournaments go, I don't think it is wise to point to the smaller skill gap as a reason for every upset in every tournament unless you have legitimately watched every game where there was an upset. TSLOpen is still populated by excellent players despite upsets in the first round. Most of the upsets in GSL were mainly due to the favored player being outright outplayed or perhaps getting unlucky with one click (in regards to Nestea and MVP respectively). There were many, many more important factors in those upsets besides a skill ceiling.
A lowered skill ceiling from easier macro mechanics may be a factor in SC2, though IMO it's not as major as people complain it to be.
I really didn't read the patch in detail but, wow, I'm surprised to hear this. Right now, I have nothing useful to add to the conversation, seeing that I'm not too aware of what's going on. Once I do, I'll edit my post. Nonetheless, I gotta agree with you, I don't like what blizzard is doing T_T.
I wish TL was more supportive of this : ( and we, the community can stop giving Blizzard mixed signals..... And I also wish more people actually watched the BW pro-scene so they'd understand our arguments a tad bit better
Built in BW coach lol. They should have alerts for when you need to build supply depots too, and when your minerals or gas get too high, or when you haven't scouted in awhile. That way it'll be like the game is playing you! SPEND YOUR MONEY HUMAN. HUMAN, YOU NEED TO BUILD MORE SUPPLY DEPOTS. DROP A MULE HUMAN.
So that you don't have to be "count 25s after this I need to do a larva inject." It is like notifications that you are being attacked. It's nice to have, and whether you respond and do anything with it is a player's choice.
I hope to god this thing doesn't beep every time I get 50 nrg on OCS. Because I use a lot of scans like other good Terrans...we don't want it to beep every friggin time it hits 50, especially late when if we have 5+ ocs lol.
On February 27 2011 16:31 avilo wrote: I hope to god this thing doesn't beep every time I get 50 nrg on OCS. Because I use a lot of scans like other good Terrans...we don't want it to beep every friggin time it hits 50, especially late when if we have 5+ ocs lol.
Overall, bad idea by blizzard.
It doesn't beep when you hit 50 energy, or ever. It's one of the many visual indicators that people pretty much tune out. It makes the game easier, but if you have the attention span to watch those indicators and pick out which ones aren't "Your forces are under attack!" or "Extractor finished" or whatever I think you could easily have been injecting on time anyway. I'm not sure that this does affect gameplay. I think it's being added for consistency and maybe helping people with the early game, which I know personally is the only time I ever even think about those indicators.
But as my brand new posting icon indicates, I may not be the brightest one around...
Whether or not it makes the game easier to play for you, it makes spectating that much less exciting.
In BW, since all the units had bad pathfinding and didn't autosurround, seeing two armies clash and seeing the pros control the units to make the units take a beautiful position was something that would be jaw dropping. By adding more of these types of crutches, you can watch a game and just say "yeah I could do that if I sat in front of my computer all day and just played SC2 if I had these crutches to help me". Takes a lot of excitement out of the game. I even feel this way about the game now as it is. The GSL does give us amazing games, but not as much as the BW proleague games.
i'm hoping that this won't have too much of an effect on gameplay in terms of simplifying mechanics, but i'd have to use it first to make my judgment upon it.
regarding the direction blizzard is taking, i think most of the bw community agrees that it's going the wrong way. however, because the majority of the player base continually clamours for greater ease and 'strategic depth' as opposed to 'mindless' mechanics, i believe it's all but inevitable that sc2 will continue to grow more and more distant from its predecessor as time goes on.
we're in the minority. hardcore, casual-hardcore, nostalgic- whatever you want to call it- the numbers of the old bw community (imo) are only shrinking in comparison to the growing number of gamers getting involved with sc2 and newer games.
I really hate the argument that just because its not 1998 dosent mean a game cant be hard. Its fine if they oversimplify it if they want nothing more then a game, but there throwing money at it left and right and trying to kill an already established ESPORT in the process, while taking sc2 mechanics more towards being just another DOWII. Its fine if the game is easier if you just want to play to have fun once in a while, if you want a competitive scene making a game too easy is one way of guaranteeing that wont happen.
On February 27 2011 16:59 shindigs wrote: Whether or not it makes the game easier to play for you, it makes spectating that much less exciting.
In BW, since all the units had bad pathfinding and didn't autosurround, seeing two armies clash and seeing the pros control the units to make the units take a beautiful position was something that would be jaw dropping. By adding more of these types of crutches, you can watch a game and just say "yeah I could do that if I sat in front of my computer all day and just played SC2 if I had these crutches to help me". Takes a lot of excitement out of the game. I even feel this way about the game now as it is. The GSL does give us amazing games, but not as much as the BW proleague games.
pretty much what i think. GSL games are really just meh, i'd like to give the time for sc2 to develop but it really isn't that exciting to watch. I used to watch most GSL games now I just watch them sometimes. Same thing with PL games, but they're much more exciting, I saw Bisu vs Kal (SKT vs STX) the other day, insane battles that game because of the positioning. I actually think one reason SC2 battles are more dull because the units clump up a lot easier (harder to see the action and less of it on the screen) even though it makes the unit control much easier. yeah, it makes the game easier to play but thats one reason why theres a huge skill gap in sc1, but i wouldnt have seen a full screen battle with masses of zealots and dragoons clashing and storms and incredible reaver shots.
So what? Making the mechanics easier is better for the sc2 scene. If they were as hard as bw then wouldn't the game be dominated by Koreans again? Why shouldn't the better strategy be rewarded(in a strategy game) instead of the better mechanics?
I don't want the game to be arbitrarily hard. It's sortof like saying that you cover up the minimap, mute the game sound, and play with one mouse button just for the sake of making it harder. Alerts are fine.
Just make the game harder. There should be more ways people can showcase their skill. (like epic reaver micro and mine dragging and all sorts of things in BW). They made poor decisions to limit people being killed when they don't have detection in my opinion (They made DTs pretty much obsolete, and Z can no longer contain well).
On February 27 2011 21:11 Jimmy Raynor wrote: So what? Making the mechanics easier is better for the sc2 scene. If they were as hard as bw then wouldn't the game be dominated by Koreans again? Why shouldn't the better strategy be rewarded(in a strategy game) instead of the better mechanics?
because everybody wants to play a game that you can beat anybody at and esports dont matter because being korean automatically makes you better at bw because sc2 definitely has more advanced strategy than bw and rock paper scissors is fun to watch
Guys, play the fucking PTR before whining about this stuff.
Its a small message on the side of your screen like when your building completes. THATS IT. NO SOUND, NO BEEP, NO BLARING MESSAGE IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SCREEN.
So unless you tell me you regularly keep track of the side of the screen with all the little messages, this won't affect you at all. And if you did keep track of that stuff, then I highly doubt missing larva injects is something oyu're gonna be worried about.
On February 27 2011 21:45 ch33psh33p wrote: Guys, play the fucking PTR before whining about this stuff.
Its a small message on the side of your screen like when your building completes. THATS IT. NO SOUND, NO BEEP, NO BLARING MESSAGE IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SCREEN.
So unless you tell me you regularly keep track of the side of the screen with all the little messages, this won't affect you at all. And if you did keep track of that stuff, then I highly doubt missing larva injects is something oyu're gonna be worried about.
Exactly... as a Protoss this won't effect me at all... We already had an indicator for when Warpgates could be used... and how many. lol
On February 27 2011 21:45 ch33psh33p wrote: Guys, play the fucking PTR before whining about this stuff.
Its a small message on the side of your screen like when your building completes. THATS IT. NO SOUND, NO BEEP, NO BLARING MESSAGE IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SCREEN.
So unless you tell me you regularly keep track of the side of the screen with all the little messages, this won't affect you at all. And if you did keep track of that stuff, then I highly doubt missing larva injects is something oyu're gonna be worried about.
Nevertheless, keeping track of something that on the side of your screen is a lot easier than keeping track of your larva timings. The game was made easier with that change.
On February 27 2011 11:11 MOOG wrote: Let me repeat to you a part of your own blog-the only reason macro mechanics are in the game is that it compensates for the addition of automine and mbs.
This is the most faulty part of your reasoning. Its 2010 now. Blizzard should NOT compensate for removing automine and MBS. you put in automine and MBS by default. Its 2010 now, not 1998. Blizzard never thought "we removed automine and mbs and now we have to compensate for that by making the game harder in other areas." The game is more frustrating without automine and mbs, not just harder.
The macro mechanic notification may make things a little easier for players, but the inclusion of larger maps to the map pool will make the game more difficult. Larger maps extend the length of the game and also tax pro skills like multitasking. The difficulty imposed by larger maps far outstrips the effect of a small addition like macro notifications.
This change isn't a very big deal. There already was a macro mechanic notification-the plop of the larvae, the disappearing of the chrono slinky, and the mechanical breakdown of the mule. These were all very loud, but you can really only notice them when your camera was near the location of the event. Now, they can be "heard" globally.
wait, what's the sound for chrono boost? i didn't know there was a sound....
On February 27 2011 21:45 ch33psh33p wrote: Guys, play the fucking PTR before whining about this stuff.
Its a small message on the side of your screen like when your building completes. THATS IT. NO SOUND, NO BEEP, NO BLARING MESSAGE IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SCREEN.
So unless you tell me you regularly keep track of the side of the screen with all the little messages, this won't affect you at all. And if you did keep track of that stuff, then I highly doubt missing larva injects is something oyu're gonna be worried about.
Nevertheless, keeping track of something that on the side of your screen is a lot easier than keeping track of your larva timings. The game was made easier with that change.
Again, as a Protoss player, it isn't easier for me to keep track of the warpgate count by moving my eyes away from the micro battles or the minimap than it is to just develop a rhythm of when my warpgates are ready(as you naturally will if you play a lot). I can't imagine this would somehow be different for zerg or terran or for my chronoboost.
On February 27 2011 21:11 Jimmy Raynor wrote: So what? Making the mechanics easier is better for the sc2 scene. If they were as hard as bw then wouldn't the game be dominated by Koreans again? Why shouldn't the better strategy be rewarded(in a strategy game) instead of the better mechanics?
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is actually bigger in SC2 than in SC1, I'm going to write a longer post on this eventually but there are reps of Idra manhandling players like Squirtle and MKP in BW, players that are above him in SC2, White-Ra could beat Code S players as well like MKP and Boxer, but he got destroyed by the lowest of the code A players at IEM.
Foreigner "success" in SC2 is an illusion, if SC2 didn't happen and all the A-teamers besides MVP quit gaming I'm sure we'd see a similar level of foreigner success.
On February 27 2011 21:11 Jimmy Raynor wrote: So what? Making the mechanics easier is better for the sc2 scene. If they were as hard as bw then wouldn't the game be dominated by Koreans again? Why shouldn't the better strategy be rewarded(in a strategy game) instead of the better mechanics?
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is actually bigger in SC2 than in SC1, I'm going to write a longer post on this eventually but there are reps of Idra manhandling players like Squirtle and MKP in BW, players that are above him in SC2, White-Ra could beat Code S players as well like MKP and Boxer, but he got destroyed by the lowest of the code A players at IEM.
Foreigner "success" in SC2 is an illusion, if SC2 didn't happen and all the A-teamers besides MVP quit gaming I'm sure we'd see a similar level of foreigner success.
Uhhhh you are going to need a damn persuasive argument there.
I am going to outright say you are wrong but I'll be eagerly awaiting that writeup
edit: this video popped into my head. Some top foreign players represent the TL community against a series of koreans representing Ygosu (b-team players and ex-pros).
On February 27 2011 21:11 Jimmy Raynor wrote: So what? Making the mechanics easier is better for the sc2 scene. If they were as hard as bw then wouldn't the game be dominated by Koreans again? Why shouldn't the better strategy be rewarded(in a strategy game) instead of the better mechanics?
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is actually bigger in SC2 than in SC1, I'm going to write a longer post on this eventually but there are reps of Idra manhandling players like Squirtle and MKP in BW, players that are above him in SC2, White-Ra could beat Code S players as well like MKP and Boxer, but he got destroyed by the lowest of the code A players at IEM.
Foreigner "success" in SC2 is an illusion, if SC2 didn't happen and all the A-teamers besides MVP quit gaming I'm sure we'd see a similar level of foreigner success.
lol, even as a huge bw pro nuthugger myself this is totally wrong. Foreigners are much more successful at sc2 because of how much easier sc2 is. Top level players make way fewer and way less severe macro mistakes, there is barely any need to micro units in huge battles and there is huge luck factor in sc2. There are tons of random bad casual masters players (like myself) who can take games off professionals because of this and I absolutely hate it. In BW, I was C- and literally had a 0% win vs my friend who was B (we've played like 30 games +). In SC2, I'd be extremely surprised if I couldnt take one game off idra if we played 20 times.
EPT
