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!CONTAINS SPOILERS!
So I just watched the VODs of HayprO's games and they were absolutely fantastic. It's insane how much he has improved and how good he is. He's at least as good as a lot of the Code S players, yet he goes out in Code A, which is really sad to see. GanZI played really well as well, imo both deserved to advance.
I think nerves played a pretty big role in the games though, as Haypro has stated before, he always gets nervous before big games, and you could actually see him shaking a bit when they filmed him in the booth during the first game.
Anyway, if you read this Haypro: I'm a huge fan of your play and I hope to see more of you in the future, can't wait for your next GSL matches! Don't worry too much about not showing results, it will come eventually. No matter what I'll still be a huge fan!
Kämpa på! :D
  
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on't worry too much about not showing results, it will come eventually. No matter what I'll still be a huge fan!
Agreed.
I'm an Idra & Ret guy (excluding Koreans for now), but I never looked away or frowned upon Haypro's lack of conventionally accepted results. Considering he's 50x better than me, I look up to him and enjoy his improvement. Just because he's behind the scenes or doesn't rack up the numbers people generally evaluate players with doesn't mean he's any worse or any less valued of a player.
Sometimes I feel this community is too harsh, too demanding and just too damn dissatisfied with everything.
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When you say "conventionally accepted", do you mean everything except where he got caught cheating at Dreamhack and thrown out of ToT?
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His problem (to me) was multitasking. He never was able to keep map awareness to defend expansions. He'd rarely be able to handle too any things at once and the terran always was one step ahead of him.
I liked his unit control and his harass, but in the end he kept losing expansions because terran was already there by the time he noticed (the map was also made it hard to defend expansions in the 2nd game, but still).
He has the right ideas but execution is the problem (expanding, defending them, correctly micro'ing banelings in attacks). Of course nerves might've played a big factor, but based on what I saw, those are his major problems.
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On February 24 2011 09:04 Catch]22 wrote:
When you say "conventionally accepted", do you mean everything except where he got caught cheating at Dreamhack and thrown out of ToT?
As if cheating is not common among professionals.
Though, nice monkeywrench you tried throw in there. I'm sure that cheating equals an auto-discredit of one's ability in the game.
Here's 10 points.
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he played really well and it's a shame he didn't get through. he showed solid play, but no spark of creativity, i think the games today showed an inflexible, shy, player that couldn't pull through for all his skill at the fundamentals. it's wierd how he looked less prepared than his opponent who is basically teamless (b-team slayers? lol), while being in the ogs house, perhaps it was the nerves and the novelty of the gsl maps that took him out of his comfort zone for some reason.
ganzi was very good as well, but too much better than our tl'er judging from those two games. he still won game 1 even with all those stupid dropship losses which should have turned the tide of battle and would have lost him the game in a ro16+ code s fight. not much more to say except that he was more aggressive, more psychologically fit, and showed a better game sense in my opinion, and while at times he made really silly mistakes, he displayed great command of fundamentals and beat his zerg opponent with superior strategy and tactical decison making
still, i'd say overall hayder is looking like a top world player, but frankly this was one of his last chances to make an impression, all his teammates have made a name for themselves with their plays, well possibly not nony but that's because he was mostly inactive, and they haven't been in korea for as long as he has.
and by no stretch of imagination is it because he's zerg or 'drew' unlucky to play good or cheesy players, that's not an excuse. gonna look out for him during the tsl and rooting for him to make a good showing, but if he doesn't at least show very good games, as in, even better than today, and manages to actually beat someone good, i for one will stop caring completely about him, like so many others have already given up on supporting the guy, just look at the uproar against him being invited to the tsl, however ignorant that might have been.
gotta say though, it's gotta be pretty tough on the guy to be real good at what he does yet fail all the shots that he got so far to make a dent on the scene, feeling sorry he couldn't break through for all his time practicing with the best.
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Last season, Haypro would've been a contender for the Code A finals, and yeah, I think he probably is better than some of the players currently in Code S, but I also think that those players are in Code S as a result of a somewhat ill-conceived system(or rather, the result of a very crazy first 6 months of this game). But I don't think, based on what I saw, he belongs in Code S. I think over the next few seasons a huge chunk of Code S will be replaced by the monster players in Code A and the really amazing players who didn't even qualify, such as Puzzle, Bomber, and Yonghwa. Haypro's good. I think he ccould come back to Europe and win a ton of money. But I don't know if, going forward, he'll be in shape to hang with the best of the best in the hardest tournament in the world.
It only gets harder from here. I'd love to see him go supersaiyan and come back stronger than ever, but I'm skeptical that it'll happen that way.
it's wierd how he looked less prepared than his opponent who is basically teamless (b-team slayers? lol
Ganzi was in IM as far as we know right up until the Code A prelims with no information as to why he left. Being in the Slayers clan but not the team doesn't mean anything whatsoever when he dropped out of his actual team so recently; it's possible he's been in the Slayers clan this whole time, even while on IM's team..
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Maybe it's just me, but the last 5-6 games I've seen of haypro he was always completely outclassed. Maybe he's great in practice, but frankly this doesn't really matter.. What matters for a professional gamer are tournaments and Haypro is failing big time so far.
I've lost all confidence in him.
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I think people need to stop looking through their pink colored glasses. As much as I love TL team, there was never a slight chance for him to win the first game and even though he destroyed lot of ganzi's army in second game, there were always two new medivacs full of marines for each medivac+marines he killed. I was not impressed by his play at all, losing so many hatcheries, not using infestors (pretty sure he could've won the game 2 and put up much better fight in game 1 with infestors), not harassing enough with mutas.. so many mistakes, he definitely isn't code S material yet even though I wish he would be.
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I think he's a really solid player, his fundamentals are quite strong and he was known to be very talented even at BW. He's clearly up there with the best foreign players.
The truth of the matter is, he just can't catch a break. It's always the worst possible luck and circumstance for him. If you take the most recent Code A match and put Ret in it, would you be confident Ret would take GanZi down? I wouldn't, at all. In fact I can see it ending up in a similar fashion.
If you go back in time and check posts about Jinro on TL pre-GSL3 or even some of his replays at the time, people generally considered him the first candidate to leave the oGs-TL house and there was nothing at all impressive about him. In fact, Haypro was rated higher when he just arrived to Korea because of BW.
Ret's story pre-Assembly is pretty similar actually, except people KNEW that Ret is genuinely a sick good player. There was no objective evidence of that in SC2, but fans that follow the scene and know the people knew it. He was nowhere to be seen for months, then he lost in the first round of Code A and people still knew he was one of the top foreigners. Only then did he come out and win Assembly, manhandling Naniwa (at the point where Nani was also considered to be among the best foreingers) so hard it wasn't even funny along the way.
Haypro isn't that far off. Plenty of fans just KNOW he's insanely talented and capable of performing at least at Code A level, many of the pro players said that as well. They're not all saying that just because they want to be nice. Sometimes you have to be patient and look beyond the results or even what you can see on the screen during a game, because it doesn't always tell the whole story.
It's similar to the July vs mvp issue I bring up a lot these days. A lot of newer fans considered mvp as a God among men, but just by knowing their background you know that July is fundamentally a better RTS player by a huge margin, huge.
It's all about a player performing on his actual top level. For one reason or the other, players may not be reaching their potential or playing at the top level, but it would be a mistake to neglect them and consider them bad.
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I just don't know why he didn't cancel all of those hatches before they died. He must have lost 2k minerals to hatchery's that never even finished.
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On February 24 2011 10:00 Cadgers wrote:
I just don't know why he didn't cancel all of those hatches before they died. He must have lost 2k minerals to hatchery's that never even finished.
It's not easy to deal with the huge amount of pressure he was under mentally. I don't mean the in-game pressure, I mean pressure to finally perform and having to beat a legit good player to do it.
If you don't put yourself in the correct mental state, you're always going to be making mistakes like that, and in his case it was hard.
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On February 24 2011 09:04 Catch]22 wrote:
When you say "conventionally accepted", do you mean everything except where he got caught cheating at Dreamhack and thrown out of ToT?
He wasn't thrown out of ToT if i remember correctly.
Also there were no proofs of him cheating in 1x1. He was obs in the suspicious games and he used an hack to show the min / gaz of the players ( at least that was what he claimed ).
( Penguin plug didn't work anymore ).
Also on topic, i didn't watch the game but i'm not too surprised of the result. He is massively underrated.
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On February 24 2011 09:04 Catch]22 wrote:
When you say "conventionally accepted", do you mean everything except where he got caught cheating at Dreamhack and thrown out of ToT?
Wow, I've never heard of that! Care to elaborate?
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On February 24 2011 09:59 Talin wrote:
It's similar to the July vs mvp issue I bring up a lot these days. A lot of newer fans considered mvp as a God among men, but just by knowing their background you know that July is fundamentally a better RTS player by a huge margin, huge.
there's more to winning than just being a really good player. july and mvp is a really good example of this; mvp is of the new generation of BW pros and definitely has much better mechanics and fundamentals than july does. however, july is a champion and has the mindset of a champion (gsl4 is nothing compared to golden mouse); he's able to play under extreme pressure and to not fail in unfavorable circumstances. i think that's something haypro is missing at the moment, and he won't be able to perform until he gets the mental block out of th eway.
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On February 24 2011 10:19 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 09:59 Talin wrote:
It's similar to the July vs mvp issue I bring up a lot these days. A lot of newer fans considered mvp as a God among men, but just by knowing their background you know that July is fundamentally a better RTS player by a huge margin, huge.
there's more to winning than just being a really good player. july and mvp is a really good example of this; mvp is of the new generation of BW pros and definitely has much better mechanics and fundamentals than july does. however, july is a champion and has the mindset of a champion (gsl4 is nothing compared to golden mouse); he's able to play under extreme pressure and to not fail in unfavorable circumstances. i think that's something haypro is missing at the moment, and he won't be able to perform until he gets the mental block out of th eway.
Yeah, agreed. Looking from his posture, his expressions and even the lack of conviction or aggression with which he carried out his games yesterday, I'd say he's suffering from a lack of confidence and belief. I actually think it will be better for him to go back to Europe and practise for the NASL to further his career. The practise house must be a harsh environment on a player who's down on luck and GSLs are spread quite far apart with no tournaments in between to build any momentum.
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On February 24 2011 10:27 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 10:19 rauk wrote:On February 24 2011 09:59 Talin wrote:
It's similar to the July vs mvp issue I bring up a lot these days. A lot of newer fans considered mvp as a God among men, but just by knowing their background you know that July is fundamentally a better RTS player by a huge margin, huge.
there's more to winning than just being a really good player. july and mvp is a really good example of this; mvp is of the new generation of BW pros and definitely has much better mechanics and fundamentals than july does. however, july is a champion and has the mindset of a champion (gsl4 is nothing compared to golden mouse); he's able to play under extreme pressure and to not fail in unfavorable circumstances. i think that's something haypro is missing at the moment, and he won't be able to perform until he gets the mental block out of th eway. Yeah, agreed. Looking from his posture, his expressions and even the lack of conviction or aggression with which he carried out his games yesterday, I'd say he's suffering from a lack of confidence and belief. I actually think it will be better for him to go back to Europe and practise for the NASL to further his career. The practise house must be a harsh environment on a player who's down on luck and GSLs are spread quite far apart with no tournaments in between to build any momentum.
this reminds me of how Jinro won an MLG right before gsl3 which gave him a incredible confidence boost as well as a ton of momentum in his play. all Jinro needed was that little nudge into the right mindset. I believe that this is what Haypro needs, he will be an amazing player if he gets that momentum started
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
HayprO got the unluckiest draw in the tournament and still played solidly. There's no shame in losing to a guy who once beat Jaedong.
He'll be back in GSL and he'll see a ton of success this year in the foreign scene. HayprO's a beast.
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On February 24 2011 10:09 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 09:04 Catch]22 wrote:
When you say "conventionally accepted", do you mean everything except where he got caught cheating at Dreamhack and thrown out of ToT? He wasn't thrown out of ToT if i remember correctly. Also there were no proofs of him cheating in 1x1. He was obs in the suspicious games and he used an hack to show the min / gaz of the players ( at least that was what he claimed ). ( Penguin plug didn't work anymore ). Also on topic, i didn't watch the game but i'm not too surprised of the result. He is massively underrated.
He was thrown out of ToT actually, not that that's relevant anymore. Most people bought his story.
Oh and haypro is gonna blow up and achieve a lot of shit in the next couple of months. Quote me on this if I'm wrong 6 months from now and I'll do an embarrassing dance on youtube or something.
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Haypro is really fucking good, and I hate how much shit people talk about him. Ganzi was an A-Teamer (not a very good one, but a bad a-teamer>ALOT OF PEOPLE), who has now been playing sc2 hard for a few months. I'm sure haypro will show good results soon.
On February 24 2011 09:59 Talin wrote:
It's similar to the July vs mvp issue I bring up a lot these days. A lot of newer fans considered mvp as a God among men, but just by knowing their background you know that July is fundamentally a better RTS player by a huge margin, huge.
.
Yes July was very successful in the past, but in the last 2 years or so, he accomplished absolutely nothing in bw, barely qualifying for any MSL/OSL, while MVP was a rising star who hasn't really broken into the scene yet (aside form his MSL RO4).
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On February 24 2011 11:33 Megaliskuu wrote:Haypro is really fucking good, and I hate how much shit people talk about him. Ganzi was an A-Teamer (not a very good one, but a bad a-teamer>ALOT OF PEOPLE), who has now been playing sc2 hard for a few months. I'm sure haypro will show good results soon. Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 09:59 Talin wrote:
It's similar to the July vs mvp issue I bring up a lot these days. A lot of newer fans considered mvp as a God among men, but just by knowing their background you know that July is fundamentally a better RTS player by a huge margin, huge.
. Yes July was very successful in the past, but in the last 2 years or so, he accomplished absolutely nothing in bw, barely qualifying for any MSL/OSL, while MVP was a rising star who hasn't really broken into the scene yet (aside form his MSL RO4).
I wouldn't have called MVP a rising star by any measure. At most he was on his way to making Proleague rotation.
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Australia8532 Posts
HayprO managed to draw probably the favourite in Code A .. Ganzi is a monster Terran and HayprO was able to hold his own..
I don't think this is the last we will see of him..
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Still think HayprO is such a fucking baller. We have yet to see the best from him.
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I have to say im really suprised to see all the negativity towards hayder, both from his GSL games today and from the fact that he got an invite to the TSL.
There is no doubt that hayder is an amazingly skilled zerg player, both now and in broodwar.
He always seems to get the most unlucky draws when it comes to tournaments concidering how good GanZi is it's really no suprise that he would have a hard time, look at the terrible zerg that huk played against in comparison.
I think its a real shame for hayder's sake however as i'd say he is probably the only one in team liquid that has yet not gotten the oppertunity to show his real potential, though i think a lot of us knows that he has mad potential.
If he can manage to get over his nerves and get back into the code A i wouldnt be suprised to see him compete in code S sometime within the next few months.
You really shouldnt underestimate a player of hayders caliber and his previous achievements in sc1 can really back this up, being pretty much the top swedish player and one of the best europeans overall really speaks in his favor, he is just a beast waiting to be released.
hayder hwaiting!
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For the record MVP never made the MSL ro4, just the ro8. I know Artosis has made that mistake on air several times.
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On February 24 2011 12:19 Turgid wrote:
For the record MVP never made the MSL ro4, just the ro8. I know Artosis has made that mistake on air several times.
To give him credit he did take a game off a pretty much invincible Flash.
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Yeah definitely. Beating Flash in 2010 is a serious thing to do. It just wasn't reflective of his other results IMO.
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On February 24 2011 12:47 Turgid wrote:
Yeah definitely. Beating Flash in 2010 is a serious thing to do. It just wasn't reflective of his other results IMO.
If you go down the list of people he beat its really impressive. Mind, Stork, Best, Kal, Snow, Baby in a series. He was quickly rising in skill.
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On February 24 2011 09:12 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 09:04 Catch]22 wrote:
When you say "conventionally accepted", do you mean everything except where he got caught cheating at Dreamhack and thrown out of ToT? As if cheating is not common among professionals
Cite/source/OR?
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Where did you get the vods?
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I have to give a lot of credit to Haypro, he has improved just as much as jinro if not more! I really enjoye watching him last night, especially game 2. (I think it was game 2) Where he went for the double expo when ganzi went for the 14 CC. That game was played brilliantly although he lost. I wish him the best of luck in any tournaments he has coming up!!!
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I think the amount of Hatcheries he failed to protect really cost him, even with ample time to cancel the production of them. I just not long finished watching the VOD's myself, but I really think GanZI played the better games. I'm a bit bias though since I love my Terran ;D
Had haypro been able to defend and hold his early expansions (Game 2 this is) It may have turned out differently. Nevertheless, I feel he played some solid games and definitely provided some entertainment!
Best of luck for future to Haypro, 
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In game 2 he also had a huge cloud of mutalisks and never once wandered near the Terran mineral lines, even when the terran was happily sieged up nowhere near Haypro's bases. Sure, the mineral lines were turreted, but 2 or even 3 turrets is no big deal when you have 30+ mutas.
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EPT
