EPTOn February 11 2011 01:14 Sm3agol wrote:
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I actually play piano at a quite high level. And I understand that while playing Prokofiev is technically on a much higher level than, say, Bach, that doesn't mean people will like Prokofiev better. Or that Prokofiev is actually better than Bach. Nor does it mean that Prokofiev is more interesting to listen to. Mere technical excellence is not necessarily interesting or compelling, even for a professional.
That's because that is where the game's current highest level is at, sadly. For crying aloud, something as simple a splitting your marines vs banelings only started getting used a few months ago, a full year or so into the game's development. And Day 9 was certainly not talking professionally. No decent pro has less than 100 APM. He meant for your average ladder user, you don't need high APM because you can still win games purely on macro right now. But that's hardly breaking news, 1 year into SC:BW's development, amazing micro wasn't happening, one base rushes were the norm.
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On February 11 2011 00:29 Sayle wrote:
Except that that's how any activity works. If you're good at chess, you appreciate good plays much more than a bad player (who may not understand them at all). If you've played a musical instrument to a decent level, you appreciate the music more when you hear a professional playing. (As a specific example, non-pianists think that Fur Elise is amazing, but any decent pianist will tell you that that piece is actually trivial to play and not particularly impressive.) I've never played baseball so when I watch a game of professional baseball, I can't really appreciate all the skill involved. Sure I can imagine it's difficult to pitch a ball in the perfect spot or hit a ball going X miles an hour, but it's not really impressive to watch. Have you done any activity at a really high level? I don't think you'd be saying that if you had :/
Except that that's how any activity works. If you're good at chess, you appreciate good plays much more than a bad player (who may not understand them at all). If you've played a musical instrument to a decent level, you appreciate the music more when you hear a professional playing. (As a specific example, non-pianists think that Fur Elise is amazing, but any decent pianist will tell you that that piece is actually trivial to play and not particularly impressive.) I've never played baseball so when I watch a game of professional baseball, I can't really appreciate all the skill involved. Sure I can imagine it's difficult to pitch a ball in the perfect spot or hit a ball going X miles an hour, but it's not really impressive to watch. Have you done any activity at a really high level? I don't think you'd be saying that if you had :/
I actually play piano at a quite high level. And I understand that while playing Prokofiev is technically on a much higher level than, say, Bach, that doesn't mean people will like Prokofiev better. Or that Prokofiev is actually better than Bach. Nor does it mean that Prokofiev is more interesting to listen to. Mere technical excellence is not necessarily interesting or compelling, even for a professional.
On February 10 2011 23:15 Sm3agol wrote:
SC2 has the full potential of being just as micro intensive, its just that, atm, noone is good enough to where the extra APM microing can make up forthe fact that their macro is slipping slightly. Right now, at this stage of SC2 development, superior macro trumps micro.
But even Day9 said something like 60-80 APM would be enough to perform all the necessary actions required in a game of SC2, and Ret said on the recent State of the Game that he feels that mechanically, he has nothing left to improve in SC2 which is why it doesn't really matter if he leaves Korea.
SC2 has the full potential of being just as micro intensive, its just that, atm, noone is good enough to where the extra APM microing can make up forthe fact that their macro is slipping slightly. Right now, at this stage of SC2 development, superior macro trumps micro.
But even Day9 said something like 60-80 APM would be enough to perform all the necessary actions required in a game of SC2, and Ret said on the recent State of the Game that he feels that mechanically, he has nothing left to improve in SC2 which is why it doesn't really matter if he leaves Korea.
That's because that is where the game's current highest level is at, sadly. For crying aloud, something as simple a splitting your marines vs banelings only started getting used a few months ago, a full year or so into the game's development. And Day 9 was certainly not talking professionally. No decent pro has less than 100 APM. He meant for your average ladder user, you don't need high APM because you can still win games purely on macro right now. But that's hardly breaking news, 1 year into SC:BW's development, amazing micro wasn't happening, one base rushes were the norm.
That part where I said to read the whole thing before posting counterarguments, did you skip it? like you skipped the part where i said "this is not the beef that i am addressing? or did you read the title and figure out exactly what i was getting at, and concocted the same answer that you've said many a time before to some post that you've imagined? I spent time on this to write it, and i would appreciate it if you read it before unleashing your hive mind. If my writing was not clear enough, then I apologize.
The point isnt that 40000 apm is more fun to watch, the point is that there are constantly skills being compared, at every moment. a good macro player will have a good 50 supply higher than a bad macro player in sc1. this difference is not the same, so all the wins and losses are based around moments that changed the game. In an sc1 game, because there are so many elements that result in the win, it takes more than one attack, or one expansion, or one harass to take a lead that will win you the game. Also, the game gets harder with time, so even the smallest difference of skill will start to manifest in a long game, which is not true of sc2 games.
because of this, there is not that "oh shit i just won" moment like there is in BW, because the game can always be taken from you. in sc2, i get an expansion first, i fend off the timing attack, and i've gained a lead that i can just sit on, that my opponent needs to make an event to get back in the game.
