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Ok, this game is frustrating me.
PvZ is FINE
PvT, i would have like an 80 % win rate except for stupid banshees.
this just happened to me 3 times today.
4 player map, i scout his base last. He's walled off cant see anything cept some marines.
I go for a voidray with stalkers pick off his supply depot, marines, barracks, get up the ramp and see two port cloak banshees. GG i lose. theres nothing i can do, he just cloaks, kills my few stalkers, pumps out vikings and kills my one VR, flies over to my base kills my nexus, i try warping in stalkers, but i only have 2 gates, and he can just cloack and kill em. i lose.
same thing happens if i go blink stalkers.
PvP. 4 gate works, 3 gate robo works, but if i do ANYTHING else i lose. ive lost 4 games in the last two days where ive gone blink stalkers n lost to dt, he just has to hold off long enough for one dt to come out and i instantly lose
I dont get the point of even HAVING anything besides a robo bay and gateways vs P and T.
If i wanted to play rock paper scissors i would do just that.
 
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Well, conversely, think of all the different things that protoss can pull out on the terrans and how the latter has to essentially prepare against them all:
3-gate, 1-star
4-gate
3-gate robo immortals all-in
DTs
blink stalkers
etc.
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I totally get you, it's the same deal in ZvP! I try to go 6 hatch into 10 hatch but he always rushes me before 10 minutes! Usually before the game I try to be nice and say "10min NR right?" and sometimes they say yes, but STILL rush! Ugh, these newbie BM SC2 players. In your case, I would suggest asking you opponent what he is making before choosing your build. For instance, if you are thinking about rushing voids just be like "yo, are you getting banshees? btw i'm 14/f/cali and i'm on facebook, name is Allie Shruteia." This way, either he'll tell you what he is making or he'll spend the rest of the match looking for your fake alias on facebook, allowing you to mass up all you want! Good luck with this tactic, I heard koreans use it all the time!
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What do you want us to say?
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this may seem cheesy, but i love to steal a terran/protoss gas whenever possible, it makes their high tech like that come out late enough that i can make some other tech and still get a robo out before cloaked units come out. I have also found that scouting after pylon pretty much guarantees that im going to be able to get info from them. if you dont want to steal their gas, 9 scout and see how many gasses he has, if he has two then you should probably go for robo just to be safe. (or get a forge if you would prefer to spend less gas, but i feel that robo is more efficient as i like collosi in both matchups anyways)
*edit* rofl at awesome posts above me being so useful 
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So what you're telling us is that blind 2 gate VR loses to 2 port sometimes. Cool beans.
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You actually dont HAVE to do anything. Try new things, see if they work.
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3 Gate robo is the best opening vs P. If you 2 gate, you get fucked, if you 4 gate, your econ will suck. 3 Gating is just right.
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If the Terran is walled and you'd like to go a build not involving robo, try pressuring the wall with Stalkers as soon as your first one is out. If you're careful and don't lose them, you should get a good read on how much his infantry force is developing; usually if the Terran only has a handful of marines, 1-1-1 is a possibility, so you may want to deviate.
I really hate PvP so I hav eno comment there.
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On January 17 2011 14:17 Sadistx wrote:
So what you're telling us is that blind 2 gate VR loses to 2 port sometimes. Cool beans.
im saying it loses every time if you are on a 4 player map and scout him last.
and to the person who was like 'think of what the terran has to prepare for' thats not the point. the terran doesnt INSTANTLY LOSE if those are coming and his build isnt right. You can HOLD OFF stargate, dts, robo, 4 gate etc etc REGARDLESS of whether you choose to 1/1/1 or 3 rax or 1 rax fe etc. as a toss, if we go anythign other than robo and terran can hide 2 ports, then we lose.
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On January 17 2011 14:25 Alexson wrote:
3 Gate robo is the best opening vs P. If you 2 gate, you get fucked, if you 4 gate, your econ will suck. 3 Gating is just right.
maybe it's just me, but I fail to see how going 3 gate robo is economically better than going 4 gate. If you macro properly, you should have very few minerals, comparable to 4 gate.
I think.
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On January 17 2011 14:30 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 14:25 Alexson wrote:
3 Gate robo is the best opening vs P. If you 2 gate, you get fucked, if you 4 gate, your econ will suck. 3 Gating is just right. maybe it's just me, but I fail to see how going 3 gate robo is economically better than going 4 gate. If you macro properly, you should have very few minerals, comparable to 4 gate. I think.
You can make 3 more probes faster which will give you a lot of money faster to make a lot more probes faster. naw mean?
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im impressed you can even hold off a 4 gate with 3 gate robo tbh. 4 gate is the safest build in pvp
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On January 17 2011 14:51 whojohnisgalt wrote:
im impressed you can even hold off a 4 gate with 3 gate robo tbh. 4 gate is the safest build in pvp
how does 4gate beat dt rush...it doesnt
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yes, 3 gate robo isnt the best but doable. 4 gate is best, i can handle that. i just cant handle stupid rock paper scissors, detection v no detection builds that give one player a win half the time even tho hes likely terrible.
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Yeah you do pretty much have to go robo unless you're positive he's not teching.
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Honestly, you can't expect to win if you don't account for Banshees. It's not rock-paper-scissors. You don't know what he's doing, so you don't choose to do something where you're completely vulnerable to anything he does. If he beat you, he's simply better than you. Stop trying to blame the game for your own mistakes.
People have lost outright to Void Rays, to Dark Templar, and even to 4 Gate. Do you know why? Because they didn't prepare for them. Because they were too busy doing whatever they wanted instead of making small sacrifices to account for what they didn't know was coming. The extreme example. Zerg is unable to scout. Zerg drones like mad. Protoss 4 Gates. Zerg loses. Or, Zerg is unable to scout. Zerg goes safer Roach tech. Protoss 4 Gates. Zerg holds it off. See the difference? Banshees are simply the best unit at exploiting peoples' reluctance to do safe builds.
How easy would it have been to drop a Forge and wait until you confirm Banshees are not coming, and cannons if they did. Honestly. Terrans have been doing it forever against Mutalisks. It's time every other race does something similar.
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On January 17 2011 15:10 Blisse wrote:
Honestly, you can't expect to win if you don't account for Banshees. It's not rock-paper-scissors. You don't know what he's doing, so you don't choose to do something where you're completely vulnerable to anything he does. If he beat you, he's simply better than you. Stop trying to blame the game for your own mistakes.
People have lost outright to Void Rays, to Dark Templar, and even to 4 Gate. Do you know why? Because they didn't prepare for them. Because they were too busy doing whatever they wanted instead of making small sacrifices to account for what they didn't know was coming. The extreme example. Zerg is unable to scout. Zerg drones like mad. Protoss 4 Gates. Zerg loses. Or, Zerg is unable to scout. Zerg goes safer Roach tech. Protoss 4 Gates. Zerg holds it off. See the difference? Banshees are simply the best unit at exploiting peoples' reluctance to do safe builds.
How easy would it have been to drop a Forge and wait until you confirm Banshees are not coming, and cannons if they did. Honestly. Terrans have been doing it forever against Mutalisks. It's time every other race does something similar.
Excellent post. This is the answer to OP's question.
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United States1697 Posts
Maybe it works out differently at your level (maybe higher than me? not sure), but at my mid diamond level (~2600 D), I can always get 1 VR with my main army and second one 90% done by the time cloak is only half way researched. If I see a starport with techlab, I immediately target fire the techlab, and this usually results in a win for me. However if I mess up my timing or the terran went early gas to get faster cloak, I proxy a robot on my proxy pylon and chrono out an observer, while moving my entire probe line nearer to my main army. It is important to proxy the robot because putting the robot in your base generally leads to the banshees target firing the robot under construction or killing the pylon powering it. Once the observer is out, its basically gg.
The key unit here is the void ray, if you can kill his army without losing your void rays, before the banshees return to engage your stalkers, just keep the void rays in his base while moving back with your army and kill all his scvs and addons. Banshees do nothing but stare angrily at the void rays.
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On January 17 2011 14:14 Azzur wrote:
Well, conversely, think of all the different things that protoss can pull out on the terrans and how the latter has to essentially prepare against them all:
3-gate, 1-star
4-gate
3-gate robo immortals all-in
DTs
blink stalkers
etc.
as a Terran, most of these are blockable with a standard 2 rax expand.
But I think I understand you OP, Toss is forced to go Robo first.
Well...I know the options are limited but, Robo tech is the most useful tech imo so yeah
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On January 17 2011 14:04 Reignyo wrote:
Ok, this game is frustrating me.
PvZ is FINE
PvT, i would have like an 80 % win rate except for stupid banshees.
this just happened to me 3 times today.
4 player map, i scout his base last. He's walled off cant see anything cept some marines.
I go for a voidray with stalkers pick off his supply depot, marines, barracks, get up the ramp and see two port cloak banshees. GG i lose. theres nothing i can do, he just cloaks, kills my few stalkers, pumps out vikings and kills my one VR, flies over to my base kills my nexus, i try warping in stalkers, but i only have 2 gates, and he can just cloack and kill em. i lose.
same thing happens if i go blink stalkers.
PvP. 4 gate works, 3 gate robo works, but if i do ANYTHING else i lose. ive lost 4 games in the last two days where ive gone blink stalkers n lost to dt, he just has to hold off long enough for one dt to come out and i instantly lose
I dont get the point of even HAVING anything besides a robo bay and gateways vs P and T.
If i wanted to play rock paper scissors i would do just that.
StarCraft 2 is a poorly-designed game. Uninstall it and hang out in the Sports & Games forum. You'll be happy you did.
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Steal gas, and maybe think about getting hallucinations. They are good because you can use flying hallucinations to help the blink stalker build or you can use them to see up the cliff if you have a pylon near any of the edges of your opponents base.
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Guy that isn't the highest level of player (neither am I imo) and thinks he knows it all and thinks there are no other ways than 4gate or 3gate robo in a PvT or PvP. Unless you're a top Korean programer or someone like Tyler you don't.
I don't know if I should help you but I guess I'm too nice.
If you're always losing against banshees why aren't you just denying his option to go banshees?
As a Protoss it's so easy to prevent him for going early cloaked banshees by just stealing a gas. There is no way in hell he will be able to get cloak + a banshee before you have scouted it or atleast made a measurement for this.
It's 525 gas to just to get cloak and 1 banshee.
Whenever I think my opponent is going for a tech play like cloaked banshees then I just do a pre-emptive strike by stealing his gas.
It tells you a lot of things for 75 minerals. But the most important one for doing this is to prevent early cloaked banshees.
Edit:
Re-read your story a bit. When he's walled off early then you either scout at 13gate or just very wrong.
You need to get your own timing right of a Terran scout. A good indication would be that if you don't see his scv in your base around the time your gate is finished he's probably at the most furthest location. So scout there immediately. And use a Xel'naga tower to know where the opponent is. It seems you get your scout out too late. Just get an early scout at 9 or 10 food.
And PvT is somehow my favourite and strongest MU. Maybe because I play both T and P that I know the ins and out lol 
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i cant stand when people say shit like this.
Why is it that you never hear, 'us terrans are forced to go raven because theres the threat of dark templar' especially since raven tech is higher up on the tech tree.
it baffles me. If you want to go with air, please do it. If you go air and scout banshee play, build a few cannons. If not then you already have the tech to do so and you can upgrade gateway units which you should do anyway.
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EPT
