| Blogs > ArvickHero |
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
But PvT? Holy shit -___-;;; I feel like my PvT is at like a low to mid D at best, with wins coming from either incompetent Terrans not macroing properly, to breaking timing pushes if I see them coming, or outright breaking a Terran with a 2 Gate Range. I feel like this has gone past the point of simple replay analyzation for me D: if anybody please be so kind, come to ICCup and teach me some PvT sense :D I'm usually in the OP Teamliquid channel and my ID is akskdsl  | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
I'm in no position to help you, but I feel your pain. If you want to practice we could, as I'm a mid D terran player. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
Oh yeah, try to go 12 nexus more. If you execute it right, the only way he can insta-kill you is with BBS. You can block FD/Strong FD if you do it correctly. | ||
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ToFu.
331 Posts
i personally feel that at this low of a level it's easier for toss than it is for terran. because i don't play that much and i get cheesed enough, i always open 2 gate and try to apply early pressure to the T. watch out for opportunities to pick off tanks if they're positioned poorly (big advantage if you can pick them off). your nat expo should be finished and started by the time his cc is up or floating down to his nat. get obs (try to keep one over his facts, one at his nat entrance, one at his likely third location, and one with goons to minesweep), add to 4 gates. from there you can transition to 2 base arbiter or get more bases (try to get at least one more than T at all times). for army composition i try to get around 2 control groups of dragoons and then start pumping zealots. then it's just recalls or carrier transition. also, don't engage sieged up terran army head on (duh) unless you have ht, stasis, or sizable army lead. keep watching for chances to pick off units especially tanks which he will have difficulty replacing if you keep recalling/denying new mining bases. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
Regularly, your goons will start fighting first (with vultures/tanks). When goons start engaging, you want to run your zealots past the vultures and make them stick next to the tanks. This way, the zealots do more damage to tanks while some of the tanks fire at zealots, dealing splash damage to other tanks. | ||
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numLoCK
Canada1416 Posts
Once on 3 base arbiter you either want to be aggressive with recalls to stop him from expanding and pushing or you want to expand like a mad man. If the Terran really wants to he can make a 3 base 200/200 army of death and your job is to keep it from straight up killing you (recalls, stasis, sick push breaking skills) and to ensure that you can produce more 200/200 armies while he cannot. Oh, and pylon walls rock for us nooby tosses. Do them up. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 13 2011 16:10 supernovamaniac wrote: Also, when fighting an army, make sure you group your zealots separately from your goons. Regularly, your goons will start fighting first (with vultures/tanks). When goons start engaging, you want to run your zealots past the vultures and make them stick next to the tanks. This way, the zealots do more damage to tanks while some of the tanks fire at zealots, dealing splash damage to other tanks. Wait, what? I thought it was better to send in zealots first to soak up the damage because goons melt faster than zealots. Wasn't it the case that you send in zealots first, and then when zealots die, you pull back your goons. Get your zealot reinforcement and repeat | ||
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Funnytoss
Taiwan1471 Posts
On January 13 2011 16:13 lastmotion wrote: Wait, what? I thought it was better to send in zealots first to soak up the damage because goons melt faster than zealots. Wasn't it the case that you send in zealots first, and then when zealots die, you pull back your goons. Get your zealot reinforcement and repeat You're correct in that you pull out when your zealots have died, but you do so because the goons by themselves are not particularly effective and will die quickly. Therefore, the zealots need to at least live long enough to make it into his tank line and do some damage, and running them in first ensures that they get torn up by mines and splash before they even have a chance. That's why you first send in the dragoons to absorb the first volley while sending zealots in during the chaos. | ||
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numLoCK
Canada1416 Posts
On January 13 2011 16:17 Funnytoss wrote: You're correct in that you pull out when your zealots have died, but you do so because the goons by themselves are not particularly effective and will die quickly. Therefore, the zealots need to at least live long enough to make it into his tank line and do some damage, and running them in first ensures that they get torn up by mines and splash before they even have a chance. That's why you first send in the dragoons to absorb the first volley while sending zealots in during the chaos. I always preferred sending a few zealots to clear the first messy bit, then sending both zealots and goons and pushing straight through to the tanks with the zealots from there. Because especially early on (such as a push against your third), you are going to have a core group of goons and you don't want to waste them, which would force you to spend more gas and delay your important tech. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
Competent Terrans will position their tanks/mines so that when goons try to pick off mines, tanks are in range of the goons. Therefore, driving in with goons first will only hurt the goons, while if you sent in zealots first (even if its a small number), not only will it soak up the tanks but the sacrificial zealots also get rid of the mines since its gonna die anyway. I'm no PvT gosu so I could be 100% wrong | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
It's not very hard to do but it can ruin a terrans day, especially at lower levels. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
If you can macro well, you'll plow through D+ Terrans. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
And at D+ you can pretty much always get away with teching slightly slower. Also if your main goal is to improve and not to win, don't use reaver openings. Obviously they are viable, and good to have in your repertoire eventually, but they are trash for learning the matchup. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On January 13 2011 16:43 Cambium wrote: At D+, you don't need much of control, just get a good BO (like 2-gate exp) and just macro off of 6-7 gates. If you can macro well, you'll plow through D+ Terrans. Take this advice for sure. You should play PvT kind of like a Zerg in the sense that you want to be ahead of the Terran in bases. Just get a strong economy and plow through him with macro. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
I always open up 1 gate Core-zealot (13 core, 14 zlot, 16 pylon and Range after Dragoon). If I see that they are expanding, I continue to pump goons, but put down a Nexus before Robo. If there's a walloff, I put a Robo before Nexus because I heard somewhere that its good against 2 fact. If I don't see any SCVs pulled off gas, I'll just 2 gate to be safe. Sometimes I straight up go 2 Gate Range, and I'll compensate by delaying my robo in favor for a faster third. This works when I'm not trapped in my base due to mines being laid outside, otherwise the Terran will punish me for delaying obs so much. I haven't really used 12 Nexus simply because I never practiced it, and I feel like I want to learn to play well w/ 1 gate core openings before I abuse 12 Nexus. Also I don't want to risk losing to BBS I've done some experimentation w/ Reaver-based strategies, where I use the Reaver to harass/scout, but usually doesn't turn out too well since I'm not very used to using it. After getting my expo, I increase gate count to 2 gates and pump Dragoon/Obs, while trying to grab a Third as quickly as possible. After getting the third, I lay down a third gate and a citadel, and increase gate count to at least 6. Usually I'll have a scout in his base, and change gateway numbers accordingly. I time my fourth either when my Arbiter is out/in the making or soon after his third goes up. Now some of the problems I've grappled with were weird early pushes, or timing pushes in general. If they surround the base in turrets, then I'm blind and I usually die to an incoming push. This is partly due to me being dumb, and also making too many Dragoons and not enough Zealots. In part I've been able to remedy this by making a Shuttle with 4 Zealots, which has been enough to fend off pushes so far. Fighting 3 Base turtle play has had mixed results. Sometimes I do well w/ recalls and stuff and wear him down hardcore. Sometimes they do a massive 2-1 timing and I just roll over and die which idk why D: Also usually when I'm maxed out i have about 22 goons 2 obs and aobut 3-4 control groups of Zealots and some Arbiters. On January 13 2011 16:35 R0YAL wrote: Try the Bulldog strategy http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bulldog_(vs._Terran) It's not very hard to do but it can ruin a terrans day, especially at lower levels. how well does this work v. Rax-Expand? | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
Also, his tanks will be delayed, meaning less tanks to you can overpower him more easily, at least in theory | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 13 2011 17:26 ArvickHero wrote: Now some of the problems I've grappled with were weird early pushes, or timing pushes in general. If they surround the base in turrets, then I'm blind and I usually die to an incoming push. This is partly due to me being dumb, and also making too many Dragoons and not enough Zealots. In part I've been able to remedy this by making a Shuttle with 4 Zealots, which has been enough to fend off pushes so far. Fighting 3 Base turtle play has had mixed results. Sometimes I do well w/ recalls and stuff and wear him down hardcore. Sometimes they do a massive 2-1 timing and I just roll over and die which idk why D: Also usually when I'm maxed out i have about 22 goons 2 obs and aobut 3-4 control groups of Zealots and some Arbiters. how well does this work v. Rax-Expand? If you are struggling vs timing pushes in general, I think the key to look out for, is when he pushes out: what does your army composition look like? Eg if you have like 22 goons, but zealot speed has only just finished and you have like 5 zealots then thats one of the most common ways to lose to a timing push without actually being outmacroed by too much. Eg if they are turreted up to the extent that an ob can't get into their base, assuming you are at, or about to be at 3 bases, it might pay to tech slightly quicker to allow you to get to the right unit composition quicker. Rather than working on 'maxing out to the right unit composition' as quickly as possible. As for your maxed out army, try to accommodate for some storm in there. I know the pros really seem to favour arbies over storm lately, but it really is far less forgiving if you ever screw up a push break. Storm kills a great deal of their force, so even if you lose a major battle, your chances of wearing down his blob with reinforcements is still pretty good. If your army dies in a push break with stasis, everything unstasises and continues on their merry way to shitting over your reinforcements. As for bulldog, it works pretty much as well vs rax expand as it does vs seige expand. It hits at the timing where they have about the same number of units. But it is a pretty cheesy all in build and won't help you learn the matchup in any way. It's good to do for the lols, or to pull out as a suprise build in a BO series. Not much good for anything else. | ||
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
I also have problems with PvT - it used to be my very good MU, but now it is my worst. Very common mistakes are: - engaging terran from bad position, losing units for small damage done - trying to take out his third, losing all units and the cc survives + scvs run away - i thought you don't really need upgrades, but the opposite is the truth. You have to match the terrans upgrades when engaging huge macro figths or you are dead - never ever let mines shit your dragoon army, good terrans have vultures running everywhere whole game, so count the mine could be anywhere. - you have to know what is the terran plan, if they want to kill you with huge timing blow from specific number of facs or they want to creep slowly towards you while taking exps, or harass you to economic crisis while making bigger army from better eco. | ||
Aesop
Hungary11300 Posts
PvT, after some time, comes down to you being able to replenish your army quickly rather than killing him. If he turtles, what you need the most are Gateways and sufficient income to bump up quickly to 200/200 again after an exchange. You don't really need to kill him actively if you are ahead in expansions. Some content on Liquipedia might still be interesting for you. For example http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Push_Breaking is still very good. Mixing up your BOs with a DT drop here and there or a 10/15 isn't bad either. These might look cheesy on the paper, but it's interesting to transition out of them into a proper macro game. | ||
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
Snipe tanks whenever he unsieges and moves forward, threaten to counter and all that annoying stuff will probably break any low level Terran in half. | ||
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Crimson
United States311 Posts
at this point, put down a citadel and get speed. you NEED to have an obs watching his fact count. if it is 5 or 6 then he is coming with a timing push to abuse your double expo. with your 3 bases you can easily power macro from 9 gates without tech, or 7-8 with getting arb tech. macro like a monster and position your army as close to his base as you can. this way, if you can't break his push outright, you have some room to stall until your tech or next macro round finishes. breaking the push was the easy part for me. hotkey your zeals and goons seperately and have an obs following his army. right when he unsieges, go back to your gates and throw an extra round of zealots on no matter where you are on the cycle and rally them to your army. asap move your zealots into his tanks (not attack move, move) and attack with the goons to follow up. your zeals will die fast, but jump back to your gates and put another round of zealots on. by this time, your new speedy lots should have reached your army. throw them at his tanks again. keep up the pressure and back off when there are no more zeals. if it becomes obvious you are losing more then gaining, back off. you delayed his push enough to hopefully get to arbs/carriers and secure a 4th. from then on it becomes "who can make more units faster after a 200/200 fight." just keep up the expansion and gateway count. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On January 13 2011 16:30 lastmotion wrote: ^ This is what I was thinking Competent Terrans will position their tanks/mines so that when goons try to pick off mines, tanks are in range of the goons. Therefore, driving in with goons first will only hurt the goons, while if you sent in zealots first (even if its a small number), not only will it soak up the tanks but the sacrificial zealots also get rid of the mines since its gonna die anyway. I'm no PvT gosu so I could be 100% wrong Eh, I should've mentioned that it depends on the location of the mines. If the mines are planted, you can send in few zealots first to take out the mines. However, don't send all of your zealots or you'll have nothing to counter the tanks. You'll eventually want to stick those zealots next to the tanks instead of melting early to the vultures. | ||
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Sandrosuperstar
Sweden525 Posts
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
2. SHOW NO FEAR - just man through fields of mines/tanks. After a few spectacular losses, my PvT got infinitely better because I was no longer afraid to just charge in. You can reinforce faster than terran can, just keep trading army for army 3. Zealot heavy. At D+level, I find that zealots are incredible fire and forget weapons. Screw dragoons, I would make like 80:20 zeal to goon ratio armies, a-move, and just focus back on macro. 4. 2-base arbiter is ridiculous | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
PVT is so easy to keep getting advantages against most terran players. The counters to basically every unit require more skill/knowledge than most of the players you play will have. | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On January 13 2011 18:07 Aesop wrote: It's hard to analyse exactly what goes wrong by what you tell. But it looks like your Gateway count is low for your respective number of expansions. I mean, 6 Gates off 3 bases is really not adequate, even as a rule of thumb. PvT, after some time, comes down to you being able to replenish your army quickly rather than killing him. If he turtles, what you need the most are Gateways and sufficient income to bump up quickly to 200/200 again after an exchange. You don't really need to kill him actively if you are ahead in expansions. Some content on Liquipedia might still be interesting for you. For example http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Push_Breaking is still very good. Mixing up your BOs with a DT drop here and there or a 10/15 isn't bad either. These might look cheesy on the paper, but it's interesting to transition out of them into a proper macro game. This. ^^ Need more gates, need more units. At D+ levels it's always a good idea to have extra gates and produce more units than you need, just so you can crush him and punish him for any mistake (D+ players make a lot of mistakes  ).If you see him expand, you expand too. Don't take a too early 3rd, just mass and keep him contained. (this is best for ~D+/C- levels, once you get better, you'll get a better feel of how many less gateways and units you can get away with, and expand/tech earlier) If he pushes, attack if you see a good opportunity, then retreat in the middle of the battle if you see you'll lose more than you gain. Otherwise, just keep your army relatively close to him, but don't engage. Keeping the army close gives you the opportunity to attack him if he's off-position or unsieged and slows him down as he has to be careful and siege/unsiege and put mines everywhere. Keep your groups of units in a (semi)circle around the enemy, always. Many factories -> Push is coming soon, add gates and mass units. Low factories -> You expand, he's going to slowly take his thrid. In mid-late game, once you have him contained or unable to break out easily, you can expand 1-2 times pretty safely. | ||
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
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