In case it isn't obvious from the title, this post contains spoilers from MSL groups F and H. If you haven't seen them and don't want to be spoiled, now's your chance to quit reading.
So I hadn't watched much BW in a while, due to both being somewhat more interested in SC2 and trying to keep my sleep schedule relatively regular during college. Last night I had time, and a couple of my favorite players were playing, so I decided to stay up and watch. It really reminded me just how much better of a spectator sport BW is relative to SC2. Watching Perfectman harass Midas nearly to death with DTs, then somehow manage to throw away the huge advantage as Midas desperately countered (maybe he overcommitted to the DTs?). Bisu and Kal's first games were both awesome. Even Bisu stomping Kal in a build order win was very enjoyable to watch (possibly moreso because I'm a Bisu fan). I think the only time SC2 has ever entertained me as much as those games was the TLO-Hyperdub game in GSL with tons of nukes. And this despite the fact that I apparently missed the game of the night, as I went to bed after Bisu 2-0'd.
I got to thinking about why these relatively simple BW games could be so much more exciting than many of the better SC2 games, and I really think it's the tension of game changing abilities. It's Reavers, Mines, and Scourge. Seeing Kal destroy Really with terrifically placed Scarabs just has no equivalent in SC2 right now. Even after the wildly successful DTs in the Bisu/Kal game, there was tension watching the Reaver harass, thinking "well Bisu is way ahead, but if Kal can get a couple of these Scarabs to land..." SC2 needs more moments that can change an entire game in an instant. It's far from hopeless. Forcefields have the potential in some situations. Seeker Missiles might be able to if they were reworked significantly. There's hope for expansions, though Blizzard will need to reverse the current trend of making units like Colossi, Thors etc. high DPS but low(er) damage per shot.
I don't hate SC2 or anything. I find it at least as fun to play as BW was, possibly more so. Certainly, for all the things Bnet 2 got wrong, the AMM makes it so much easier to just hop on and find a game if I want to. But I've yet to pay for GSL and just don't see a lot of reason to at this point. SC2 just isn't up to par for spectators yet.
I think I'm going to start watching Brood War more often again. Last night was fun.
BW really is a great spectator sport. Watching games live, especially can give you such a rush and keep you on edge the entire time. Kal's game vs Shine was probably one of the best PvZ's I have seen in quite some time.
Can't relate it too much to SC2 since I haven't really watched much except for a few days during GSL 1, but from what I did see it just wasn't my thing (to each his own). I'll agree that as far as the game goes it can be fun to play though.
There are clearly lots of people who enjoy spectating SC2 (and all the more power to them I guess) so theres definitely something there. Not sure I can quantify what appeals to either audience since I only belong to one but its good that (so far) the communities are existing side by side.
AMEN Brother. To be honest I'm not at all interested in SC2. Played a couple games here and there, and I watched GSL 3 just for the Jinro factor. The games were not nearly as amazing and capturing as SC:BW. I guess it's a fine game of its own and one ought to give it time to blossom; But the graphics and the units clumping the way they do... It just isn't that entertaining.
In all honesty, I never really got the excitement factor out of SC2, and I don't think it is capable of producing it. Dare I say, it seems to me more like a regular game than a competitive sport like BW. Also, there really hasn't been anyone in SC2 worth fanboying over IMO. Probably due to a combination of a lack of skill(hi Zergbong, GSL winner), the GSL format, and the game itself.
On December 31 2010 16:51 Lightwip wrote: In all honesty, I never really got the excitement factor out of SC2, and I don't think it is capable of producing it. Dare I say, it seems to me more like a regular game than a competitive sport like BW. Also, there really hasn't been anyone in SC2 worth fanboying over IMO. Probably due to a combination of a lack of skill(hi Zergbong, GSL winner), the GSL format, and the game itself.
The GSL (and the GOM Classics back then) itself compared to MSL and OSL feels like a joke, the format, the production values and the commentators were all vastly inferior to the BW leagues.
On December 31 2010 16:51 Lightwip wrote: In all honesty, I never really got the excitement factor out of SC2, and I don't think it is capable of producing it. Dare I say, it seems to me more like a regular game than a competitive sport like BW. Also, there really hasn't been anyone in SC2 worth fanboying over IMO. Probably due to a combination of a lack of skill(hi Zergbong, GSL winner), the GSL format, and the game itself.
Yea, and I don't see that lack of skill getting better soon considering only Brood War pros who were mediocre in brood war would want to switch over. Makes sense though, who wouldn't want their career to go from this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/640_IrOn
Yup yup. I've basically stopped watching all sc2 because it just doesn't compare as a spectator sport in its current condition. I got more quality out of 2 nights of msl + proleague then I got out of all gsl 3.
On December 31 2010 16:51 Lightwip wrote: In all honesty, I never really got the excitement factor out of SC2, and I don't think it is capable of producing it. Dare I say, it seems to me more like a regular game than a competitive sport like BW. Also, there really hasn't been anyone in SC2 worth fanboying over IMO. Probably due to a combination of a lack of skill(hi Zergbong, GSL winner), the GSL format, and the game itself.
Yea, and I don't see that lack of skill getting better soon considering only Brood War pros who were mediocre in brood war would want to switch over. Makes sense though, who wouldn't want their career to go from this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/640_IrOn
This is one thing I will disagree on. I think the skill level will rise; it just won't be sudden until you see someone dominating the scene. Look at the skill rise from the beginning of SC to now. It's increased DRAMATICALLY. Now, if you take some mediocre player, say Hogil, and let him play against Boxer in 2000, there'd be no doubt who would win because of the skill level difference. But it took 12 years to get the scene to that point. I think skill will increase with time for SC2 too, given that it's balanced and the maps eventually adapt to the changes in play and allow for innovation, improvement, and advancement.
The game changing pieces, super mines/reavers/dts definitely keep you on your edge the whole time! Its not over if you are slightly behind.
i dont think shine and kal was that great. Sure it was exciting but there was a decent amount of fail and you kinda know who has better management...i guess it was fun to watch =P
Theres some moments in SC2 that are pretty exiting, but I am inclined to agree that BW is a better spectator sport. I REALLY enjoyed last nights games, and was insanely happy when Bisu advanced 2-0!
I have never been watching or played SC2 and will probably not, BW is so easy to understand and fun to play! Even players like Oystein has changed now to BW <3
On December 31 2010 16:51 Lightwip wrote: In all honesty, I never really got the excitement factor out of SC2, and I don't think it is capable of producing it. Dare I say, it seems to me more like a regular game than a competitive sport like BW. Also, there really hasn't been anyone in SC2 worth fanboying over IMO. Probably due to a combination of a lack of skill(hi Zergbong, GSL winner), the GSL format, and the game itself.
Yea, and I don't see that lack of skill getting better soon considering only Brood War pros who were mediocre in brood war would want to switch over. Makes sense though, who wouldn't want their career to go from this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/640_IrOn
This is one thing I will disagree on. I think the skill level will rise; it just won't be sudden until you see someone dominating the scene. Look at the skill rise from the beginning of SC to now. It's increased DRAMATICALLY. Now, if you take some mediocre player, say Hogil, and let him play against Boxer in 2000, there'd be no doubt who would win because of the skill level difference. But it took 12 years to get the scene to that point. I think skill will increase with time for SC2 too, given that it's balanced and the maps eventually adapt to the changes in play and allow for innovation, improvement, and advancement.
Edit: Also, GSL requiring payments for VODs = T_T
Obviously but as it is top Brood war progamers won't be flocking to the Sc2 scene for a while until it can truly establish itself with large companies funding teams and what not. This is probably gonna take 2 - 3 years. Until then Sc2 is gonna be clogged with War3 players and sub par Brood War players who can't even hold a finger to Jaedong, Flash, Kal, Fantasy, Stork, Bisu, Zero, Sea, etc, hence I say the skill level is going to be bad comparatively (altho i might not have made this clear)
Edit: Also in this context im pretty sure improvement and advancement are interchangeable.
i dont really know if the skill level in sc2 can rise that much further with the game being in the state that it is right now. From what I've seen, the foreigners have a legit chance of competing with the koreans. When i watch the fpviews i notice that the foreigners are for the most part using relatively lower apm than the koreans. that being said with lower apm players being able to go toe to toe with high apm players who from what ive seen are constantly spamming from start to finish each game b/c there simply just isn't anything else productive to do with their speed, it doesnt seem like the skill a top bw player possesses would raise the skill level all that much in sc2. there simply isn't enough that can be done with the extra hand speed and multitasking ability that creates and advantage in sc2.
SC2 games end in like ten minutes. There's no real progression in games. You also can't see anything with all the units clipping into each other and whatnot. -_-
On December 31 2010 23:21 niteReloaded wrote: What I don't get is - How is it possible that Blizzard fucks up in something as obvious as this??
Scarabs, spidermines, scourge and similar things turn a regular second into a gamebreaking moment!!
Without stuff like that SC2 can't possibly match BW.
I suppose it's because as much they market it towards eSports in the end their main concern is hard sales and thus we have a much less intimidating watered down version of BW with 3d graphics =P.
On January 01 2011 01:03 Slakkoo wrote: What does he do in the vid? Drops zealots so tanks and mine splash?
Drop zealot to activate mines to kill a bunch of vulture and tank which can change the game since that's 2 production cycle worth of unit, also the fan excitement of him successfully doing it and making the terran looks like an idiot for sieging near spider mines.
Is starcraft 2 even a standalone game? Without it's successor, it may only have captured an average size audience and had them play for two years as is common with new age games. The only thing that might save it from this fate are the two expansions.
For me, I'm always willing to accept that SC2 expansions may add new game-play elements that make it exciting to watch. In the game's current state, no matter how skilled the players become, I doubt it will be as exciting for me, as even some of the more mediocre BW games. I'll give it another chance if someone recommends a game somewhere down the line that must absolute be seen, but so far there have been only a handful of games that I've personally enjoyed. Unfortunately, a large part of the dislike I feel is due to the graphics; they look "good", but I don't consider them watchable for more than a game or two. Everything just starts to blur together and gives me a headache.
I've been too busy to watch much BW as of late, but I've tried to tune into some of the earlier PL games, and every time I do, I enjoy every single second of it (including my time tabbed to something else as I listen to Korean commercials.)
On December 31 2010 16:30 Macavenger wrote: In case it isn't obvious from the title, this post contains spoilers from MSL groups F and H. If you haven't seen them and don't want to be spoiled, now's your chance to quit reading.
So I hadn't watched much BW in a while, due to both being somewhat more interested in SC2 and trying to keep my sleep schedule relatively regular during college. Last night I had time, and a couple of my favorite players were playing, so I decided to stay up and watch. It really reminded me just how much better of a spectator sport BW is relative to SC2. Watching Perfectman harass Midas nearly to death with DTs, then somehow manage to throw away the huge advantage as Midas desperately countered (maybe he overcommitted to the DTs?). Bisu and Kal's first games were both awesome. Even Bisu stomping Kal in a build order win was very enjoyable to watch (possibly moreso because I'm a Bisu fan). I think the only time SC2 has ever entertained me as much as those games was the TLO-Hyperdub game in GSL with tons of nukes. And this despite the fact that I apparently missed the game of the night, as I went to bed after Bisu 2-0'd.
I got to thinking about why these relatively simple BW games could be so much more exciting than many of the better SC2 games, and I really think it's the tension of game changing abilities. It's Reavers, Mines, and Scourge. Seeing Kal destroy Really with terrifically placed Scarabs just has no equivalent in SC2 right now. Even after the wildly successful DTs in the Bisu/Kal game, there was tension watching the Reaver harass, thinking "well Bisu is way ahead, but if Kal can get a couple of these Scarabs to land..." SC2 needs more moments that can change an entire game in an instant. It's far from hopeless. Forcefields have the potential in some situations. Seeker Missiles might be able to if they were reworked significantly. There's hope for expansions, though Blizzard will need to reverse the current trend of making units like Colossi, Thors etc. high DPS but low(er) damage per shot.
I don't hate SC2 or anything. I find it at least as fun to play as BW was, possibly more so. Certainly, for all the things Bnet 2 got wrong, the AMM makes it so much easier to just hop on and find a game if I want to. But I've yet to pay for GSL and just don't see a lot of reason to at this point. SC2 just isn't up to par for spectators yet.
I think I'm going to start watching Brood War more often again. Last night was fun.
The irony is that Blizzard's AMM came from Warcraft 3, not BNET 2.0. AMM is not a new concept at all.
EPT
KIM TAEK YONG!
