• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:20
CEST 10:20
KST 17:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes79BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch2Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
Soulkey on ASL S20 ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D ASL20 General Discussion BW General Discussion NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch [ASL20] Ro16 Group C Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Too Many LANs? Tournament Ov…
TrAiDoS
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1880 users

PvZ struggles - Page 2

Blogs > Freeheals
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 02:00:23
December 15 2010 00:53 GMT
#21
I think your main issue in that game is your weren't really cognizant of the economic situation. You're always going to struggle in PvZ if you aren't as aware of who is actually in the lead as you should be. Who is in the lead is largely determined by who has the economic lead.

You had him down to 7 drones and no queens, and no minerals in the bank. The game is effectively over at this point (or it should be)- you should know how many drones you have killed, roughly how many drones he could possibly have at that point, how many lings he's built, etc. You also know he has 4 spine crawlers and is sitting on his back foot because he's worried about whatever force you're going to followup with- so he's probably building zerglings too. You need to get to the point where thinking about how badly you've hurt him is automatic, and more importantly, where you stand relative to him.

After you saw the massive amounts of spine crawlers, I would have immediately withdrawn and expanded, and started pumping out sentries while teching to colossi. You're already ahead economically at this point- not by much, but once the expansion goes down and you've been chronoboosting probes out like a mad man, you will be. It worked out in your favor that you didn't, because the runby did way more damage and would have set you up for the easy win if you knew what to do.

However, you kept trying to pressure him after the runby when there wasn't any point in doing so, spending a lot of minerals that could have been spent on teching or more expansions. Your expansion timing was okay given the circumstances- what was not okay was missing a lot of chronoboosts and a few probe building cycles. Also- I suggest maynarding your probes to your expansion (ie, if you have 30 probes on minerals, move 15 to your expansion when the Nexus finishes- the difference in worker saturation means a huge boost income even with the time lost from mining). If you keep up with the chronoboosts, this will generally give you an instant (although transient) income lead on the Zerg in a more normal situation.

You built too many zealots again... most of those are going to die to roaches before they even get a hit in... furthermore, the amount of sentries you built considering your zealot numbers was highly excessive. In general, you do not want to get anymore sentries than is necessary (this depends on preference to some extent)- they don't do much damage, and they suck up 100 gas each. Get them early, and then build up energy on them, and then only build more if you need to.

To put your army in perspective this is what you both had before the first big fight:

16 zealots
6 colossi
11 stalkers
10 sentries
only +1 attack

vs

48 roaches
7 corruptors

Those 16 zealots are all going to die to roaches pretty much instantly... think about it. 48*16=768 damage. Ignoring armor, your zealots are all dead in roughly 3 roach attacks. How much damage did they do? No where near that, especially if you forcefield to block the roaches from encroaching on your colossi (and given you had 10 sentries, you almost had as many melee prohibiting units as melee units!). You get rid of 5 sentries that frees up 500 gas, which is 10 stalkers. Get rid of 2 colossi and all of your zealots could be stalkers. You now have a force of 27 stalkers, 4 collosi, and 5 sentries- if you forcefield properly and guardian shield, very few of your stalkers are going to die, and they do enough damage to one shot corruptors (pretty big deal, especially if you forcefield well since you can focus fire corruptors).

Your forcefields need work- I think you were conflicted between preventing them from getting too close and letting your zealots be able to attack. Don't get zealots, and don't let those roaches anywhere near your army- 48 roaches is a crap ton of roaches.

After that, none of it really matters- he's already got a massive lead, even after you sniped the hatchery. Killing drones is waaay more important. You let all but 1 of them escape!

So in summary you need to:

1. Have a better handle on the economic situation.
2. Exploit the economic situation when you can- expand! Chronoboost probes! Chronoboost upgrades! +3 attack is absolutely critical!
3. Work on your army composition some more- stalker/colossi/sentry should be the bulk of your army right around when the first massive battle breaks out. Only build zealots if the amount of zerglings forces you to or you have lot of extra minerals (even then- think twice about it, you could be expanding!).
4. Use your sentries more effectively- forcefield to prevent roaches from doing damage to your army, guardian shield to block more damage, and if you have the energy, to cut off his army from retreating (worry about this last, because if you do the other two things well, this probably won't even matter).
Freeheals
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States488 Posts
December 15 2010 01:31 GMT
#22
Thanks a lot for the tipz zer0.

I just finished another PvZ with the same zerg on blistering sands which led to a macro battle that I won thanks to some map awareness and army composition as well. Let me know if you or anyone wants to take a look at that.

Regarding the no-zealot proposition you had, those zealots are usually reactions to me scouting or being harassed by some speedlings. My question is, how do I know that he won't reinforce his roach/corruptor army with speedlings (possibly in a flank?!)? Unless I want to box my own army in with forcefields rendering my stalkers immobile I feel like zealots in some capacity are a good addition.

As you said zer0 I did have 16 which I agree should not be such a large number, but, would having 8 zealots or so in the mix really hurt? They soak up damage and take care of a zergling flank with ease.

Zealot / stalker / colossi / ~5 sentries sounds like an excellent composition.

Also, when zerg pumps out corruptors to counter my colossi, is it a good idea to switch to immortal temporarily or should I stick it out and keep pumping stalker / colossi?

Thanks again
http://www.last.fm/user/Rahdek
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 01:59:54
December 15 2010 01:59 GMT
#23
It is fine to build some zealots- just don't build them at the wrong time. The earlier and the later the game is, the more I find I have zealots in my army. In between, there isn't nearly as much use for them. 8 in the big battle would probably be too many considering it was pure roach/corruptor. On the other hand, 8 early on would not necessarily be too many if you're forcing him to mass a lot of lings/spine crawlers.

Also keep in mind that colossi/forcefields severely limit what zerglings can do. Once your ball hits a certain size and you have colossi, zerglings are practically useless. You might have to throw down some forcefields, but I can't ever recall a situation where zerglings completely turned a battle on their own once I had the ball of death rolling.

Generally I keep rebuilding colossi- the more they snipe your colossi, the more corruptors you are killing. The larger your stalker count gets, the more costly it gets for them to do. It depends on their units composition of course- if they're just going roaches with few or no hydra, I usually start mixing in immortals (from double robos), then restart building colossi again to keep them honest. It is somewhat difficult to kill pure roaches with colossi now, but usually they go hydra/roach so rebuilding your colossi is the best option.
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 198
OGKoka 95
ProTech75
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 1715
actioN 695
Leta 140
Rush 70
Dewaltoss 44
Rock 21
NotJumperer 18
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Sacsri 15
SilentControl 9
[ Show more ]
Nal_rA 8
League of Legends
JimRising 469
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss403
olofmeister233
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King40
Westballz30
Other Games
summit1g7661
C9.Mang0357
crisheroes321
byalli145
Happy142
Hui .138
NeuroSwarm59
Trikslyr26
trigger1
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH252
• LUISG 19
• Light_VIP 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
1h 40m
Zoun vs Classic
Map Test Tournament
2h 40m
Korean StarCraft League
18h 40m
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
23h 40m
RSL Revival
1d 1h
Reynor vs Cure
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.