|
Ok, we've all noticed the increasing use of terms 'all-in' and 'cheese.' However, a lot of people seem to be using them inappropriately. For example, in today's GSL thread, some people referring to MC's plays as all-in (doesn't matter which game, MC never all-ined).
Here's my definition of Cheese and All-in (which are different by the way)
Cheese: An early game strategy that relies on the opponent not gathering enough scouting information in time to work OR an unorthodox strategy that relies on catching the opponent off-guard to win.
Examples: Cannon rush PvP (esp on 4 player maps), 2 rax scv rush, 6 Pool, Inca's cannon rush in GSL 1
Not Examples: 3 Gate Void push, Cloak Banshees
All-in: A planned strategy that has no realistic transition afterwards.
It's harder to define all-ins as a 4 gate could or could not be an all-in depending on the circumstancs.
Examples: Thor rush, Nazgul's blink stalker rush PvZ
And of course, something can be both cheese and all-in at the same time like Leenock's 6 pool vs Nada in GSL 2. However, Leenock's 6 (or was it 7?) pool vs GuineaPig in GSL 3 was not all-in, as he only made the initial 6 zerglings and power drones afterwards to catch up in economy fast. Interestingly, I'm not sure if we can call it 100% cheeese either since LT is one of the best maps to FE on PvZ so it was a calculated decision on his part. And the only way GuineaPig can defend it is by cutting probes and a complete wall-in which hurts his economy enough to warrant a 6 pool since there's a realistic chance that if GuineaPig guessed standard and put down a Nexus or even a forge at his nat, he would've lost.
Cheese and All-ins aren't black and white but I hope people that throw around these terms so loosely read this and get a better sense of when it's appropriate to use them.
 
|
Pretty much agree with everything.
|
A nice post, but aside from clearing up what a cheese or an all-in is I fail to really see the point. Also i think cheese can go a little further than mentioned.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese
I think this is an good explanation.
|
Good effort OP. I gave up my hope in many newcomers of TL already.
Hope this will reduce the amount of ignorance fool out there in the SC2 forum.
|
I'm always all-in. It's the only way to play. No, fuck you. Yes, fuck you.
|
On December 10 2010 20:57 Niso wrote:A nice post, but aside from clearing up what a cheese or an all-in is I fail to really see the point. Also i think cheese can go a little further than mentioned. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese I think this is an good explanation.
Well.. that is the point really. Semi inspired by the notorious metagame thread. 
|
Threads reiterating the definition of cheese, all-ins, and metagame will NEVER get irrelevant.
|
On December 10 2010 21:07 BottleAbuser wrote:
I'm always all-in. It's the only way to play. No, fuck you. Yes, fuck you.
Yes, you're an all-in player -_-
|
All-in is lazy. You choose a thing to do, do it until you win or die, and no second guessing yourself. No effort spent in decisions or reflection. All-in is so fucking awesome for the lazy gamer.
|
Agree with everything except cloaked banshees.
|
i think the masses of new people who got into sc2 that heard the term "cheese" refer to anything and everything that involves early aggression/unorthodox strategies/ or a zerg playing greedy and losing before he can mass units off 5 hatchs as cheese
so i just ignore everyone refering to stupid garbage as cheese
ANY CHEESE is a strategy
like it or not
|
I've noticed an increasing amount of posts trying to educate the herps and derps on this subject.
All-in & cheese are malicious terms, let's just leave it at that mkay?
|
This can help really newbies who don't really know the meaning of cheese / all-in but there's also liquipedia that you can use but I feel the majority of newcomers haven't discovered liquipedia yet.
I don't know why but the majority just don't search througuh liquipedia when they don't know what the general meaning is (defined by liquipedia). This results in threads like this where a minority will feel annoyed about the majority not finding out themselves through liquipedia to find out but rather let others (the minority) do all the work for them.
When I needed to get some Terran strategies few weeks back I just searched through liquipedia and made great use out of it. Now I always look on liquipedia for alot of things when concerning BO/unit stats etc.
I believe this is just a phase and maybe half a year or longer then the majority will probably search through liquipedia to find out and drastically reduce threads which can be answered by searching on the right place.
|
Well said (written)
I agree 100% with this definition :D
|
All-in is cheese that meta-game-shifted into timing attacks, but in the early meta-game cheese turns into all-in and then back into cheese in the meta-shift.
On a serious note, I agree. It does bother me quite a bit when people get them confused AND when people assume it's always bad to do them.
|
ZvT on ladder is a fucking joke now. 5/5 of my last zvt have been terran marine/svc all ins. yay.
And I am pretty sure there actually won't be any timings figured out to stop these things consistently. There is no way to know exactly how they are all-inning there are 20 different viable ways for them to do it. The game needs to be totally overhauled in the expansion to get rid of how much luck plays a factor in so many matchups. Games play out so beautifully when they become macro oriented without insanely powerful all-ins and timing attacks.
|
4 gate push is not cheese and please stop calling it like it !
after 4 gate fail you still can win and you still have realistic transition.
|
Ha, accidentally did an image search instead of a normal google search and this guy came up (NSFWish?):
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5lCCx.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5X5ha.jpg) From Wikipedia: GG Allin is perhaps best remembered for his notorious live performances which typically featured transgressive acts, such as Allin defecating and urinating onstage, rolling in feces and often consuming excrement, performing naked, committing self-injury, and attacking audience members. Made me laugh. Sorry for the thread jack. I'll go back and edit it out if you want.
|
What would you say about a DT rush? Cheese? No cheese?
|
how silly. My thor rush kills their expo and gets my own expo up safely.
|
Increasing? People not agreeing on what cheese and all-in means?
What is this, every year since BroodWar came out? Maybe even since WarCraft II?
Cheese: An early game strategy that relies on the opponent not gathering enough scouting information in time to work OR an unorthodox strategy that relies on catching the opponent off-guard to win.
So it's cheese if someone walls off their main and uses deception to beat their opponent? That's standard play. You're not supposed to let your opponent see what you're doing. If they do, you'll get perfectly countered by a smart player. Your definition has been boiled down to 'an unorthodox strategy.'
I think more people agree that cheese is when you do something incredibly risky without regard for your opponent. For example, building 2 gateways in the centre of the map before scouting, or 5pooling. Even then, it's kind of debatable.
|
The reason that cheese is so often all-in is because to catch your opponent off guard, you usually have to do something like cut workers.
If the guy didn't get into your base, he still knows you can get 5 marines out of 2 rax at a particular timing, and will play so that it wouldn't fuck him over. But you cut workers much earlier, and have those 5 marines in front of his base. He could have, with more information, delayed his nexus by 15 seconds and have had a huge advantage, but he didn't.
|
On December 11 2010 02:03 Chef wrote:Increasing? People not agreeing on what cheese and all-in means? What is this, every year since BroodWar came out? Maybe even since WarCraft II? Show nested quote +Cheese: An early game strategy that relies on the opponent not gathering enough scouting information in time to work OR an unorthodox strategy that relies on catching the opponent off-guard to win. So it's cheese if someone walls off their main and uses deception to beat their opponent? That's standard play. You're not supposed to let your opponent see what you're doing. If they do, you'll get perfectly countered by a smart player. Your definition has been boiled down to 'an unorthodox strategy.' I think more people agree that cheese is when you do something incredibly risky without regard for your opponent. For example, building 2 gateways in the centre of the map before scouting, or 5pooling. Even then, it's kind of debatable.
Are you going to put down 2 more raxs behind your wall and make a mass marine push with SCVs and not bother mining gas? If not, no it's not cheese. Really.. pretty much all cheese strats are executed before the ~6 minute mark.
And to answer the 1st part of your post..
yes.. the misunderstanding of what cheese/all-in is at an all time high as far as I can see. Have you seen the SC2 forums lately?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
