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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/LXFNw.png)
Will try to get proper banner
Hello I am a quick match 2vs2 player and I play Terran on the EU server. I'm going to make regular posts about playing 2vs2 to share my thoughts and ideas and to get input from others. I will also try my best to answer questions should any be asked.
With these blogs I want to spark ideas and fuel creative play and some input from some of the great minds at this site. I will not try to figure out what the strongest builds are or give some kind of huge generalizing 2vs2 overview. One of my biggest inspirations to this is Day[9] cheers to him! 
Little bit of me and my point of view:
+ Show Spoiler + Technically I consider my self a team player but I dislike 4vs4 so far thus I avoid playing it. I mostly play 2vs2 because it's funnier but I have played my share of 3vs3. I like team games because playing with friends is a lot of fun and I like the different dynamics that it brings to the table. It's also slightly less stressful I just can't handle very many 1vs1 in a row. Anyways, here is my most relevant stats( Full profile): 2vs2 - Kakakarl & Random 1999 136-94 2vs2 - Kakakarl & Loozer 1629 132-92 2vs2 - Kakakarl & SliveR 808 42-12 3vs3 - Kakakarl & Loozer & ice 73-30 My style is defensive macro play trying to do good transitions and hitting different timings. Most of my strategies focus on creating a timing window were my team can expand rather then attack. It's very rare for me to cut scvs early on to do offensive stuff all though it happens. My view on what most people call "cheese" ( I think of it as rally point rushes) is very similar to the viewpoint of Day[9]. Hardly nothing is cheese and most rushes are in fact strong play if they are executed correctly. It is also very fun to play against for example 6-pool + proxy gates and winning against it will be the topic if my next addition of this. Btw, watching Day[9] Daily #210 - Newbie Tuesday: 2v2 Strategyreally helped me articulate some of my thoughts and instincts about 2vs2 and that sharpened my strategical thinking. It's great to have the fundamentals crystal clear.
Lets get to business shall we? I'll start this addition with:
My 2v2 map preferences
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/nM3IG.png)
The first map I decided I was going to vote against was Arid Wastes. Since I'm not a micro oriented player and since I want to expand rather then attack I don't want a map like this were joining forces early is at it's strongest. The destructible rocks makes it harder to expand and even though the center towers makes Terran very strong at the later stages of the game I'm not feeling it because when facing terrans I like heavy bio play and it's rarely me who has the tanks. With a zerg ally I do however think this map is fine because lings can be all over the place controlling the towers, reinforce you etc but for other reasons stated it gets my first vote.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/b/bb/Arid_Wastes.jpg/400px-Arid_Wastes.jpg )
Having either the main or expand vulnerable due to rocks combined with bases further apart then normal is not my cup of tea
The second map I have crossed out is Discord IV. I actually like the map for Terran and for my style but It's terrible to share a base with someone in 2vs2 random. They will take the expand below while my command center is building, go for aggressive builds even though It's easy to defend early on and many other silly things.
So since this map sometimes gives me trouble getting my expand because my ally took it (Grrrr) and the base feels to crowded I choose to not play this map. If I ever switch back into playing mostly arranged teams (lost allies due to wow expand and minecraft) I will start playing this map again.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/3f/Discord_IV.jpg/400px-Discord_IV.jpg)
Don't like how many of my random allies play this map
Lastly I choose to vote off Tarsonis Assault. There's really no real reason for it expect the bases are slightly to far away for my personal taste. I think it's a fine map for Terran and for my style but I just don't like it. I don't like the tilset and the design just does not speak to me. This is actually enough because I like all the other maps.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/e/ed/Tarsonis_Assault.jpg/400px-Tarsonis_Assault.jpg)
I know I'm not fair to vote you off but hey no hard feelings?
A few thoughts on some of the maps
I'll start with High Orbit. Here's my conceptual mind map over it:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/EPWtI.jpg)
Full size picture
The way I see it one ramp per player is standard. On this map both ramps are rather large but this is compensated by the rock that blocks one of the ramps. I treat the map as if you did have separate bases but have joined forces early. Because you joined forces (logically at the unblocked ramp) the other ramp is exposed so having the watchtower that has vision over the path to it is very important.
Having the watch in front of your opened ramp is of course also important. Now one thing often I do here to create a window to expand Is to be really suspicious about your intentions and try to make your opponents think that you are going to attack them by knocking out the rock. To build that suspicion up take that good old scv scout of yours and drill at their rock early on. They will probably chase you off sooner or later and see that you tried to get some damage in on the rock.
Get a scout reaper after this to clear the watchtower leading to that rock and then shoot on the rock a little with the reaper OR even better at a scouting structure. Get out in time if they send stuff out though (done best if you control the tower outside the other ramp so you see when they exit but that's hard)
While you do all this have someone on your team take an expand. I often let a zerg ally do this or I take one myself. Hopefully they will be on turtle mode for a slight period of time and give you anything fro a few extra seconds to minutes. If they move out The perfect scenario would be if they go for your rock because that buys even a little more time.
A last thing about this map, if your rock got destroyed early then expand outside it with a planetary fortress if that's possible. It's often a very effective solution in my experience.
Tempest is a very fun map that has what I consider the most imba watchtower of all maps.
Make sure you pass by the tower when you scout! I've had 2000+ allies just go super close by it but not taking control over it and that's just bad. This tower is so good I often scout early and take the tower to spot my opponents scouts instead of scouting 3 different locations.
Now, since it's hard to slip by the middle tanks are very strong on this map. Having the middle with about 3-4 tanks and sensor towers covering the sides is one of my favorite positions to be in in the later stages of the game.
The best way to create timings to expand on this map for me is usually to to win a battle and then control the tower, having a defensive expand is a bit hard because it it's rather exposed.
The base is big and because of this I like having 2 reapers jump around to an ambush position. I use this to harass their mineral line in the midst of combat and it can be very effective.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/46/Tempest.jpg/600px-Tempest.jpg)
Try your best to control the center and use the big bases and the terrain between them to your advantage
Lastly I will finish off with one of my favorite-timing window-to-expand builds ever that features Twilight Fortress.
You terran do the following build:
- 8 supply
- 9 rax
(Yes I hate that they removed 8 rax)
Your objective is to eliminate scouting workers asap and then try to catch up economically with a faster orbital. Make marines.
Protoss ally do the follwing build:
- pylon HIDDEN in your base or someplace else point being it's supposed to be hard to scout
- Nexus.
- Send scout early
- Stock pile a bit of chrono boost until scouts are gone
The result of this build is supposed to be the following:
They can't find protoss pylon and see that he has unspent chrono boost, This combined with the early barrack will lead them to think that you are making what I refer to as a rally point rush with proxy gateways.
Hopefully they turtle while you get a fast nexus up. They often start saving up chronoboost, get bunkers, delay gas, cut workers in favor for structures/units and I can catch up from cutting scvs early on. I always make sure I have enough marines to shut down scouting and if you control your watch tower you can send 2 marines on move command when the scout comes to make it look like the marines are rallied somewhere and then start attacking the scout just in time.
This is a meta-game build that revolves around the common knowledge that you often get rushed on this map due to the big ramp so it's very believable. Follow up accordingly to what you scout as usual. One of my favorites is phoenix + m&m.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/e/e4/Twilight_Fortress.jpg/600px-Twilight_Fortress.jpg)
When FE is good due to map design it gets popular and so does rushes. Take advantage of this with a feint!
Okay That's about it for this time  If someone can produce a proper banner for me I will be very thankful. I will gladly answer questions about 2vs2 as I stated in my intro and the next addition of this blog will be about so called "cheese" in 2vs2 and how you win against it!
 
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Cool feature! Personally, the only maps I don't mind are Tempest and Twilight Fortress. I'm a macro oriented player, and god it's stupidly hard to put up an expansion on some of the maps. Not to mention just the overall lay out is terrible (High Orbit). Oh well, the 2v2 maps are far better than the 3v3 maps at least... 
As a quetion, what do you find to be a strong unit composition in 2v2? Also, do you think there is a specific race team that is best?
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I hate Arid Wastes- I swear me and my partner always lose not because we were outplayed, but because they happen to be in a position we didn't expect and by the time we can react, it's too late. If you screw up with the rocks, there goes one of your bases. Way too unforgiving. I actually like Discord, but it happens to match up well with how we play- Protoss macros while the Terran gets bio and tanks.
Tarsonis Assault always pisses me off. The large "choke" to the expansions seems to large to hold early on with a Terran/Protoss combo, but if they have a Zerg, it's easier to secure an expansion and then for the other partner to. When we try to punish it, we usually just barely get blocked and then we're screwed. It partly has to do with my partner's micro not being nearly as good as it should be in critical situations, but every time we try to fast expand we get punished. Sigh.
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This post makes me wish I played 2v2 more. lol. Interesting map choices. I personally love Tarsonis. Usually only get your expo and the game ends before you need a 3rd. The golds are always hard to take vs T's with tanks and such and 3rd is just hard to defend without map control. Nice blog post though. I enjoyed reading it.
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On November 17 2010 05:24 emperorchampion wrote:Cool feature! Personally, the only maps I don't mind are Tempest and Twilight Fortress. I'm a macro oriented player, and god it's stupidly hard to put up an expansion on some of the maps. Not to mention just the overall lay out is terrible (High Orbit). Oh well, the 2v2 maps are far better than the 3v3 maps at least... As a quetion, what do you find to be a strong unit composition in 2v2? Also, do you think there is a specific race team that is best?
Well it obviously depends. If it's a macro fest for a while tanks and infestors can be quite devastating. It's definitely a go-to unit composition in many situations, for example when playing against two zergs.
I certain situations I really like m&m with a single starport making medivacs/vikings and putting some money towards getting upgrades while protoss makes phoenix.
I remember one epic game were my ally used Graviton Beam to lift up about 10 banes and just stimmed in and wiped everything out.
I think there is good balance between race teams but maybe a slight edge to zerg+terran because they have the whole spectrum from very mobile troops to very immobile blob of death and medivacs heal zerg so sweetly
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nice blog 5/5
this made me want to play some 2v2 again :D anyone ?
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But thanks for the appreciation! It's very interesting to read others view on things
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On November 17 2010 05:24 zer0das wrote:
I hate Arid Wastes- I swear me and my partner always lose not because we were outplayed, but because they happen to be in a position we didn't expect and by the time we can react, it's too late.
Not to be a dick but, sounds like you got outplayed to me. You could be doing the same thing to your opponents!
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Don't forget that Tarsonis has spots where a P can put a pylon and warp units into the opponent base, the pylon itself providing the sight needed. Those corners can instantly win/lose games. Since you like macro games that is another reason to vote it down.
I wish they had kept a few of the 1v1 maps in the pool for 2v2 as it was in the beta. It made for variation when the mains were very far apart.
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I cant win games on Discord. I just cant.
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As a Zerg with a penchant for fast expanding, I find that Tempest leaves me rather uncomfortable since the expo takes multiple creep tumors to join with your main, and is fairly exposed.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
this is a nice blog about 2v2, but can u talk a little bit about how u counter some strategies etc
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I've been starting to play 2v2s more but it's been really hard for me to transition from a 1v1 style game. I think I have the same style as you in that I like to get my macro up. Unfortunately, I usually lose to cheese. When I play 2v2, my partner is usually a buddy from home and he or she is not quite as good.
What do I do in that situation? Do I have to abandon the early macro style and make early units so that I can defend for the both of us? Any tips on how to play with a mechanically weaker partner?
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On November 17 2010 11:18 denzelz wrote:
Do I have to abandon the early macro style and make early units so that I can defend for the both of us? Any tips on how to play with a mechanically weaker partner?
find a new partner, or simply execpt that 2v2s are about you combined skill not your individual skill. So just play your best and DW about you league, your partner with get better with time.
Im interested on your view of the map pool over all? My TP and me both like to play macro games, but dislike joint mains. We feel like it favors sitting around and waiting for 200/200 too much. Also alot of the maps dont really allow you to correctly play Vs that style IMO.
Really we want BW maps back, doubt were going to see that any time soon though
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very nice blog.
I myself am playing mostly 2v2s with my brother and we both find that it's quite different from 1v1s, as most of the "usual" tactics you see on "TV" are just suicide in a 2v2 game.
I don't have as much experience as you do (only ~100 wins of ~200 games) and my game mechanics are also quite bad (gold league) but I'm tending to believe that 2v2s are imbalanced, especially on separate-base-maps. Why do I say this ? Well, early rushes very often transform into 2v1s and experience has thought me that if I try to macro up, I loose. Therefor I am forced to be aggressive, and since both my brother and I play zerg, this means baneling "bursts". This however leads too very short matches as 2x10 banelings + 2x20 zerglings are unstoppable if executed and timed correctly (the only problems we have here is on Tempest where the common choke before the bases is very narrow).
As for the maps, I agree with you on Arid Wastes, the map is just awful. I also kind of dislike Tempest for the narrow chokes and ramps. Discord is rather tough for my team as we are both zergs which means that one of us will have a very far away natural which means to slow reinforcement.
The other maps are quite ok, not perfect, but ok.
Either way, Great job (5/5) with this blog and I'm really looking forward to your next post.
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On November 17 2010 10:00 2GRe-Play- wrote:
this is a nice blog about 2v2, but can u talk a little bit about how u counter some strategies etc
Yes. Next addition is about dealing with so called cheesy play. I will provide replays and I will put down some some real builds and tips out there.
On November 17 2010 11:18 denzelz wrote:
I've been starting to play 2v2s more but it's been really hard for me to transition from a 1v1 style game. I think I have the same style as you in that I like to get my macro up. Unfortunately, I usually lose to cheese. When I play 2v2, my partner is usually a buddy from home and he or she is not quite as good.
What do I do in that situation? Do I have to abandon the early macro style and make early units so that I can defend for the both of us? Any tips on how to play with a mechanically weaker partner?
You need to use strategy. Find one that works=) I would probably be a little more safe then usual before expanding but not changing my style completely.
Start the game out with a plan in mind. To get help creating your plan try to envision yourself winning...! (I learned this from reading an interview with WC3 player Grubby)
Example: My partner is bad and playing Protoss and I'm Terran. My vision is me having a big economy from 3 bases and moving out with a ball of death I even bring some 10+ scvs to repair because I have enough mules and SCV:s to afford to lose them. I see my partner joining me up with a bunch of stalkers for the final kill making my tank-heavy army safer from flyers and also gives an extra purpose to the repairing scvs.
- I need to be able to macro
- Partner need help me defend early and later on get extra anti-air support so I can focus on ground control.
Conclusion: If we can join forces early I will actually be going for:
10 supply
12 barrack
13 gas
- constant marines / scvs / supply
- 50 gas = reactor
- expand
- 2 rax, get tech lab when they are done
Partner goes for 2 gate zealots early into stalkers.
If they rush very early our fast scout can change my build into something else. If they do for example a 4 warpgate rush then I hopefully have enough stuff If I pull some scvs and whatnot.
On November 17 2010 15:01 noob styles wrote:Im interested on your view of the map pool over all? My TP and me both like to play macro games, but dislike joint mains. We feel like it favors sitting around and waiting for 200/200 too much. Also alot of the maps dont really allow you to correctly play Vs that style IMO. Really we want BW maps back, doubt were going to see that any time soon though
The maps overall works well as a pool, are diverse but feels a little bit small sometimes. I have played quite a few 2vs2 on Lost Temple and I feel it's terrible because it's a bit harder to hold the line alone in this game compared to bw and therefore not as fun with separate bases.
There is great ways of exposing players who wants to macro hard core on for example Twilight Fortress. You just macro more while you harass them to death if they leave the base
On November 17 2010 16:10 locJ wrote:
very nice blog.
I myself am playing mostly 2v2s with my brother and we both find that it's quite different from 1v1s, as most of the "usual" tactics you see on "TV" are just suicide in a 2v2 game.
I don't have as much experience as you do (only ~100 wins of ~200 games) and my game mechanics are also quite bad (gold league) but I'm tending to believe that 2v2s are imbalanced, especially on separate-base-maps. Why do I say this ? Well, early rushes very often transform into 2v1s and experience has thought me that if I try to macro up, I loose. Therefor I am forced to be aggressive, and since both my brother and I play zerg, this means baneling "bursts". This however leads too very short matches as 2x10 banelings + 2x20 zerglings are unstoppable if executed and timed correctly (the only problems we have here is on Tempest where the common choke before the bases is very narrow).
As for the maps, I agree with you on Arid Wastes, the map is just awful. I also kind of dislike Tempest for the narrow chokes and ramps. Discord is rather tough for my team as we are both zergs which means that one of us will have a very far away natural which means to slow reinforcement.
The other maps are quite ok, not perfect, but ok.
Either way, Great job (5/5) with this blog and I'm really looking forward to your next post.
If you want to be more macro orientated I say get those tumors rollin and get a lot of speed lings early while one of you expand. The other one gets faster lair and provide overseers if required.
Your logic for imbalance is not imbalance between race teams but rather that playing aggro style is imbalanced?
Well, both teams have this possibility and the more experience I get the more comfortable I get dealing with busts. On my next addition at least two replays will deal with playing 2vs1 due to early busts. It's quite winnable. Focus on the main strength of zerg because it is enhanced a lot since there's two of you.
Arid Wastes is very good for two zergs (in my head at least), get a shitload of lings early and roam freely, have towers etc?
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Really cool post, we rarely see 2v2 opinions on TL. Please keep up the great work ^__^
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I really hate Discord as well.. wayy too terran favored.
Personally.. the thing i hate most about 2v2s.. is the amount of shared base maps... what is seriously up with that?
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On November 18 2010 02:10 mlee wrote:
I really hate Discord as well.. wayy too terran favored.
Personally.. the thing i hate most about 2v2s.. is the amount of shared base maps... what is seriously up with that?
It comes from the beta. In the beta there was 1 map with shared main base and the rest of the maps were the 4 player maps in the 1v1 pool. They found that Terran did poorly due to his/her ally getting busted and the terran not being able to reach the ally in time to help. This was true to an extent for p as well. Z was dominating the map pool when it wasn't shared, simply because they had so much faster units that they killed one player.
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awesome write-up, now im really curious about your opinions on the other ladder maps tho
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Holy cow. This is invaluable. Thanks for putting together this detailed overview of 2v2. I'm going to use some of these strategies for sure!
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Great initiative, although I don't play that much 2v2, I wish you the best of luck with this! :D
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Very cool. Personally I detest team games because I have trust issues but it's cool to see how you seem to have gotten it down to an exact science :D
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Hey! This post is getting old so any further request, comments or questions will still be read BUT i will adress it in the OP if my next addition.
As i mentioned I will adress rushes but I will also discuss how to manage even though your partner is retarded
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wonderful post man. wasted in the blogs section
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EPT
