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Just curious, I 100% am not trying to provoke a flamewar. A debate wouldn't hurt.
But does anyone not believe in ADD and ADHD? I was researching it a bit in my own time, after someone in my lectures gave a speech about many doctors refusing to diagnose it/recognize it. Stating that there is no actual evidence, rather vague symptoms.
He gave a list of countries and famous doctors that disputed it, and gave credence to the medical system and the pharmaceutical companies using it as a profit. He then gave a quote from an article referencing ADHD as the greatest scam of our generation.
I haven't looked up any of his sources or spoke to him, but a number of people in the class agreed with him. Must admit he delivered it in a very professional manner but didn't really provide another side of the story.
I AM NOT TRYING TO START A FLAMEWAR. If you do take this offensively, just pm me or what ever. I'd rather get some opinions on the subject instead.
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On November 16 2010 08:57 Integra wrote:
All this talk about fixing peoples neurology is really no different than asking a person that you will help him turn from black into white or that since being a girl has it's disadvantages and she should perform a sex change to get it easier in life. For me it's nothing more than yet another form of discrimination and ignorance. I mean it wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was on the list of mental illness in the field of psychology. People have to start accepting others for what they are instead of judging them.
You are absolutely correct. I do not know how well this point was conveyed on my end, but the way I've learned to interpret it in recent days is that I am not necessarily at a disadvantage in a general sense, but rather I am when I am trying to fit to these preset standards of society. In specific conditions, my particular thinking will flourish
+ Show Spoiler +"These days, the autistic fascinations with technology, ordered systems, visual modes of thinking, and subversive creativity have plenty of outlets. There's even a cheeky Asperger's term for the rest of us - NTs, "neurotypicals." Many children on the spectrum become obsessed with VCRs, Pokémon, and computer games, working the joysticks until blisters appear on their fingers. (In the diagnostic lexicon, this kind of relentless behavior is called "perseveration.") Even when playing alongside someone their own age, however, autistic kids tend to play separately. Echoing Asperger, the director of the clinic in San Jose where I met Nick, Michelle Garcia Winner, suggests that "Pokémon must have been invented by a team of Japanese engineers with Asperger." Attwood writes that computers "are an ideal interest for a person with Asperger's syndrome ... they are logical, consistent, and not prone to moods." This affinity for computers gives teachers and parents leverage they can use to build on the natural strengths of autistic children. Many teenagers who lack the motor skills to write by hand find it easier to use a keyboard. At Orion Academy, every student is required to buy an iBook fitted with an AirPort card. Class notes are written on electronic whiteboards that port the instructional materials to the school server for retrieval. (At lunch, the iBooks are shut off, and if the kids want to play a two-person game, they're directed to a chess board.) The next generation of assistive technology is being designed by Neil Scott's Archimedes Project at Stanford. Scott's team is currently developing the equivalent of a PDA for autistic kids, able to parse subtle movements of an eyebrow or fingertip into streams of text, voice, or images. The devices will incorporate video cameras, head and eye tracking, intelligent agents, and speech recognition to suit the needs of the individual child." etc - 2002 Wired Magazine Article
Just the first thing that came to my mind.
Basically, it is like trying to fit a square block into a circular hole. It is not a matter of one shape being preferable to the other. It is just not a match. And the more of a mismatch there is, the harder changing one to accommodate the other is. In this case, since the majority of blocks are circular enough to fit through the hole, it is simpler to adjust the blocks as we come across them than it is to adjust the hole (society if you aren't following...). My thought is, though, what if it were to come to a point where such "disorders" were to be desirable? It would make more sense to change the circular hole. This would require a higher state of awareness than society currently has, I would say. Sure, there are "autism awareness" ads and the like, but unless it directly affects a person, they really don't see it as their reality. This would also require a higher standard of living for society as a whole, as diagnosis or education would not come naturally.
On November 16 2010 10:57 Dr.Lettuce wrote:
Just curious, I 100% am not trying to provoke a flamewar. A debate wouldn't hurt.
But does anyone not believe in ADD and ADHD? I was researching it a bit in my own time, after someone in my lectures gave a speech about many doctors refusing to diagnose it/recognize it. Stating that there is no actual evidence, rather vague symptoms.
He gave a list of countries and famous doctors that disputed it, and gave credence to the medical system and the pharmaceutical companies using it as a profit. He then gave a quote from an article referencing ADHD as the greatest scam of our generation.
I haven't looked up any of his sources or spoke to him, but a number of people in the class agreed with him. Must admit he delivered it in a very professional manner but didn't really provide another side of the story.
I would say it is a matter of interpretation. For any one argument, there are just as many against it. My opinion is that he is looking at it from the perspective of a categorizing label, as many others have suggested.
I will be addressing your concern about whether anyone does not believe in ADD or ADHD. That turned out to be a big deal later in my life. I'll just say it made a huge difference for me when someone I hold close expressed said disbelief. And since I was (and in many ways am) still trying to understand myself, let alone love myself, I really took it to heart. I will not say that it was the direct cause of my later (and current) problems, but thinking back on how I truly felt, and how I truly feel, it is a big deal to me, and has been for years. It might not have been the reason, but it fueled the downward path. More on that matter later.
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At around the age of 10 or so, I made friends with whom I would consider my best friend for many years (and in many aspects, still do). He and I started to spend more time together once I turned 16, and was able to drive. He is very intelligent, and very weird in many ways, but he also has had a very controversial life. To save space, I will just say that he has had to make a lot of his conclusions completely on his own, oftentimes biased from his darker experiences. By that same token, he has learned self-sufficiency the likes of which I could only dream of possessing at such an early age.
Regardless, it was around the age of 18 or so that he and I started talking more and more, sharing more intimate thoughts and ideas. It was about this time that I'd shared with him the labels, as I'd still considered them as such, of ADHD and Asperger's, as well as my depression. In so many words, he expressed his belief that none of them are "real", that it was, pretty much, completely in my head (so to speak...). I did not really think about how big an impact this had made, but thinking back now, I cannot help but revel at my change. I started college in the Fall of '05. Along with being accepted into this medical-focused university, I received a full scholarship, as well as admittance into the University Honors Program.
For the first semester, I made all As, with one B. Among the classes were Calculus I, some Honors courses, and Chemistry I. It was the next semester, in Spring of 06, that things started to take a drastic turn. I was steadily taking my medication less and less, until it got to the point that I would not take it for weeks. Looking back, I really feel it was my way of trying to find who I was. For as long as I could remember, I'd always been on medication. I really had nothing to compare it to. I was who I was. Along with my transition into college life came responsibility. My father no longer would hound me to take my medication every single morning. He expected, and rightfully so, me to take it upon myself to take my medication.
In Spring '06, I took an Honors course in American Poetry as it related to the human soul, Biology I, Chemistry II, and Calculus II. For some reason, I was finding a great lack in initiative to show up for class. I ended up dropping Calculus II due to problems with understanding the teacher's writing and his utilization of a greatly outdated program, but that is neither here nor there. All of these classes were required for my Biology major.
Of course, my ability to achieve success with minimal effort had become so natural for me that I had not attributed it to much other than the way things naturally are. Ignorant on my part, and I'd have to find this out... slowly, and painfully.
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I'm just curious but what are your thoughts on 'normal' people taking Ritalin to increase concentration for studying? I understand that they don't "need" it but it's almost like a 'unfair' advantage since people who do have ADD take it for the exact same reason (needing it to concentrate).
I mean the way I see it, everyone is unique and differently. Maybe person A was born with a better ability to learn/concentrate better and person B has a deficiency in that. If someday someone invents a magical pill that raises your IQ by 50, should that pill/medicine only be limited to people who are retarded to give them a even ground with 'normal' people?
It might be a stupid question because I'm not really sure how ADD works. I know a few friends from college that used to take Ritalin during finals week when they have to cram and they swore it helps them a lot in terms of concentration. I was tempted to try it once but decided against it because i thought it was cheating.
I actually have a lot of problems concentrating in general. Often times when someone is talking to me, I'd just space out in mid sentence and I have to tell them to repeat it because I didn't hear them. This especially sucks when I work or during lectures in school, my boss can be giving me specific instructions on how to do something and in my head I would tell myself "ok this is fucking important, I need to know this, FUCKING PAY ATTENTION" and I'd space out a second later, forget everything he said previously and have to ask him to repeat it.
I remember a specific instance in HS where the teacher called on me for some question and I didn't pay attention so I told him I didn't know the answer. He ask me what was the question and I swore I was listening to it but I forgot. then he moves on and says something else and within 10 seconds calls on me again and asks me "What did I just say?" and again my mind wandered for a second so I forgot it. This literally happened 2-3 more times before he gave up and thought I just didn't care, even though I was telling myself to pay attention because I know he's going to keep calling on me but my mind just keeps going blank/wandering mid sentence and I'd just forget everything. Oh ditto to books, nowadays I can be reading a page and my mind would wander halfway through and I'd have to restart at the top of the page... This happens a lot and sometimes i'd be stuck re-reading the same page 4-5 times (really sucks for textbooks/dry materials).
Not sure if those are symptoms of ADD or maybe I just have crappy concentration/attention span. My parents was asian/uneducated so they would never think to take me to the doctor or think it might be a medical problem since I was a relatively quiet kid. I remember when I was like 7, I'd get a daily beating for sitting too close to the TV because I needed glasses but didn't know I needed glasses  (both parents have like 20/20 vision, it took them a REALLY long time to figure out that I couldn't see). I mean I'll probably make an effort to go to a doctor and get it checked out one of these days but right now my healthcare doesn't cover it and I'm unemployed.
/edit shit sorry for fucking long post/thread hijack.
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I have found myself thinking over the thread throughout the day and having an intense desire to edit certain passages, deleting some altogether, such as the side note about Starcraft affecting my WPM, or the inclusion of the reason why I am taking so long to write the thread. It seems almost like I am flaunting these eccentricities, and my first impulse is to remove them, if only to allow for a more concise, objective point of view. However, I have decided against it, as I feel it would take away from the true spirit of the thread. I did not include all my random thoughts (far from it), but the fact that I saw a correlation at all leads me to think its inclusion is more advantageous than its deletion... Either way, I digress, and thus, needlessly lengthen this already daunting read.
However, it DOES need to be noted that I unwittingly excluded some very pivotal information, which really needs to be addressed now, before I go any deeper into my thought processes
As I had been diagnosed with ADHD and Asperger's, I was eligible for Disability Support Services. This was more in regards to ADHD than anything else. To complete my requirements for this service I had to provide documentation of the diagnosis, as well as attend a summer course that was supposed to prepare me for college and how I should adjust so as not to let my disorder interfere. I completed this course, which consisted of not only lectures and explanations of the "way we(ADHD) think", but also multiple assessments of our capabilities, as well as personality tests (Briggs Myers, as well as career aptitude tests).
As had become so natural to me, I conquered each test. My competitive nature even led me to cheat on one answer, which was about the definition of a word. Rather than understanding the entire course for what it was, I was seeing it as a game of sorts. In fact, to this day, I approach many things with this mindset. In an effort to explain what I mean (as it is actually quite important in my mind), I will attempt to give close an example as I can. I have never really given the future much thought up to this point (and in many ways I still do not).
I live in the present, constantly ignoring approaching disaster. My whole life, I have never had to deal with severe consequences. Everything always turns out well. I realize now that it is greatly due to my parents' participation, though I did not fully grasp its existence at the time. From my point of view, nothing else really existed. It was just me, and nothing else. Everything was just a story to me. No one else had ever lived a life before me, historical figures never existed; it was all just data. I never really gave any time or effort to contemplation of their existence (in fact, I occasionally find myself overcome with a sense of wonder when I contemplate this... parallel of existence to my own). In many ways, I was stuck in my egocentric stage. I thought the entire world revolved around me. My reality is all that mattered. And, by that same logic, I started to enter what David Elkind termed a personal fable. That is, I felt as though I was the only one to ever experience life, as I knew it. And, if anyone's separate existence ever did enter my mind, it was incorporated in an egocentric way. In other words, I was constantly thinking that I was on everyone's mind. This would later be amplified to monstrous proportions.
"So," you might ask, "what does this have to do with your drawn-out story?" Well... everything. I was viewing the world as a video game of sorts. Any mistakes I made were not important, as it would all work out. And, it should not matter, since the consequences of these mistakes would not surface immediately. To restate what I'd said earlier, I was (and still am) living in the present. I ignored the consequences of my actions. The future did not enter the equation. This is a common symptom among people with ADHD (mind you, again, this is not an absolute, but rather a shared view on a disorder that has common psychological characteristics across its defined spectrum). Of course, there was really no reason for me to think otherwise. This subconscious outlook made sense.
Going one step further, with a particular stress on the importance of noting this to be my interpretation, when combined with Asperger's, this outlook makes even more sense. If I am the only variable in the equation, then things are a lot easier to calculate. If I were to include the existence of billions of others, as well as the past existence and influence of others, into this equation, it would be impossible to ever make any conclusions on the "correct" move. This is, as was alluded to in the Wired magazine article earlier, a huge reason why I have always been attracted to well-defined, well-structured, and logical activities. I love to build computers, as well as troubleshoot them, as there is only so much that can be wrong, and I can use a combination of game theory (in a loose sense), deductive reasoning, and past experience to help me come to my conclusion on the next, most correct move, especially if it is hardware related. Mathematics follows this same principle. It is like a puzzle. You are trying to solve a specific problem with predetermined tools. However, when you start to learn the theory and real-world application of such tools, things start to become a bit more unclear. Another example would be grammar. Though I will occasionally see contradictions among sources in regards to the proper syntax of English, for the most part, I am relatively comfortable with my own application of its "rules." (Mind you, this and the sentence before it have two glaring contradictions, in my eyes, which I would normally go back to fix for the sake of consistency, but that is not the focus of this thread, and I think the amount of time it would entail would make little difference).
My point is that I have become increasingly aware of my tendency to think of my life as a standalone existence. I will not make this revelation, however, for a while. The pain that this causes, has been one of the greatest I've ever known. As the saying goes, "There is no growth without some pain." In that regard, I consider myself far more mature in comparison to how I was even half a year ago. That will have to suffice as my explanation for now.
As for my experience with this course, which was administered by the Department of Rehabilitation Services, I did not really grow much from the experience. In my mind, it was just a formality, in order to obtain these services that my parents told me I required. Upon completion of this course, I was admitted into DSS, and given specific accommodations. Among these included extended time during tests, the permission to use a laptop for note-taking in class (as it was still not completely common at the time), and being allowed to take tests in an isolated area, so as to reduce distractions. I used these for accommodations for specific classes, with a progressively lower frequency each semester. By '07, I had stopped using them altogether.
It was during Spring '06, that I encountered my first indication of a struggle (be it from within, or with outside forces). It should also be noted that the previous semester, my first at the school, I had a final project which was due early December. I found myself wanting to put it off more and more, and asking for forgiveness from the director of the Honors Program. He was quite understanding, and let me submit it late December. I received 3 As for this course, which counted as 9 hours total. With this in mind, as I went into Spring '06, I started to skip classes. I would either not go to class at all, or leave early. A common theme that I would later identify was that I was constantly tired. I would either decide to stay home and sleep through the class or I would leave early because I just wanted to go home, and go to sleep. I did not think much of it as I'd always had a somewhat lax attitude (I'd thought) toward studying and fulfilling my academic responsibilities.
As a result of this inattentiveness to my own behavior patterns, I started to have a feeling I'd never really known before. I was struggling. I was making Cs on biology tests, Bs on chemistry tests, and Ds and Cs on Calculus II tests. I found myself saying that it would balance out with my fantastic first semester; it would just be a small bump in the road. As the semester continued, rather than figuring out how to change my behavior to suit my responsibilities, I just ignored the situation.
In the Honors seminar, the grade was comprised of 3 essays and a final, which was 3 more essays. I turned in the first essay exactly on time, and was given a detailed review of it, as well as a chance to revise it for a higher grade, of which I took advantage. The second essay was about comparing two poems whose discussion took place in a class I'd skipped (to catch up on some sleep, of course). I inquired as to what I should do, and the professor (whom will now be referred to as Dr R) replied, in an unfathomably accommodating manner, that I could write it on whatever two poems I wished. While I considered (or perhaps "ignored" would be more precise...) the subjects for this essay, a deadline for our third, and final, essay approached.
This deadline came, and went, and with no negative results. Dr R inquired as to the progress of the essays, but never showed any aggression in the matter. It was squarely, and rightfully so, upon my shoulders. It was my responsibility. I started to feel guilty for taking so much liberty that I finally submitted the second essay about 2 months after the deadline. At this point, we were preparing for our finals in all my classes. I told myself this was the excuse for which it was worth putting off my essay. Of course, I would continue to make excuses for myself, and make things so bad that I am still trying to fix the damage I've done.
I'm sure no one is still reading... but if they are, I will continue later.
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Then, in Fall 2006, I took the 2nd round of 9 hours, and ended up doing most of the work required, but owed 3 essays. It should also be noted here that one of the essays, a group science project, was a combination of efforts of our whole group to examine the effects of nicotine on cells of specific sea life. Rather than prioritize school above all else, I was starting to work full time at a... less than respectable job; delivering pizza. Whenever our science group would wish to meet, it would usually be on a Saturday, on which I normally worked 10 hours. Rather than change my priorities, and instead start taking Saturday off for schoolwork, I would just tell them I could not participate. Ultimately, I would give little help in the project, only supplying the materials for the presentation.
For the next 3 years, I would prioritize this job over my schoolwork, and along the way, cause quite a number of problems for myself. About halfway into 2007, I turned in my portion of the science project, which was quite lacking in many aspects, since I was usually not involved in the group's efforts. I still owed two more essays: a literary analysis comparing two of the three books we were assigned during the summer, and a short essay analyzing any aspect of the fall course I wished. Then, of course, there was still that final essay I still owed for the Honors seminar from Spring '06... I just kept digging a deeper and deeper hole for myself.
Since I had not finished the Spring '06 course, I received an I for "incomplete" for the course, but once the fall '06 semester passed, it turned to an F. That, combined with my C in Chemistry and C in Biology resulted in a warning from the university that I was in danger of losing my scholarship, which also provided me with 300 dollars each semester for books.
One further note; I had already stopped taking my medication by this point, and I was not completely aware of any differences. Looking back, the change is unbelievable. As I think back on my mindset of the time, I remember my general thought processes of the time:
"I see people who have much fewer advantages than I do make it through college relatively easily. I see these lesser individuals do so well, it is hard for me not to think I should do even better, with even less effort. Perhaps this really is just a huge bunch of BS. There really is no "ADHD" or "Asperger's" or anything. I am who I am. People have made it through in the past without aid, so why should I be any different? It's probably just all in my head."
There was further analysis than just that, but it was all quite flawed. I started to sever all my ties with any support for my "disabilities". Eventually, I lost my scholarship, and rather than realize the magnitude of this, I countered with "Well, I can just get financial aid, and I'll make enough to pay it all back later. My father paid all his graduate school financial aid within a year of graduation. I am sure I can do the same."
However, in order for me to get financial aid, I would have to tell my parents that I'd lost my scholarship. However, I could not bring myself to tell my father that I was struggling in any way. I told him I made a misstep, and did not take enough hours; thus I lost my scholarship. I was ashamed of the truth. He had always bragged about how well I was doing in college, about how easy I found it. I was scared to correct this. I did not want to disappoint him. In my mind, if I can just fix this problem with my essay, and retake my courses that had bad grades, I could pretend nothing ever occurred. And, if I wished, I could tell them later, after I'd graduated. This theme of procrastination would continue to grow. The illogical nature of it all is particularly annoying to me now, as I look back, but at the time, it made perfect sense to just put things off one more day. I mean... everything always works out in the end, so why change?
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So, for the next few years, I would set logical goals, but never follow through with them. I would take a few mathematics classes, 1 in Calculus II, another in accounting, and another in using excel and other programs for math problems. Along the way, I would withdraw from Calculus II twice, and go on to receive 3 Fs in it. Each time, I told myself I would just get the F forgiven, as was the academic policy, next semester, and get an A then. I would get about half way through the semester, and end up struggling, with erratic grades. And, instead of trying to fight for a passing grade, I just would give up. I would wake up in the morning, look at the clock, and think "eh, what is one class going to hurt? I can figure the matieral out." And this would happen multiple classes in a row. Then, it would come around to an exam, and I would try to cram what I could, but I would have no experience with the material. Instead of withdrawing, I told myself that I just had to take the F because, first off, I wanted to stay full-time so that my health insurance would continue, and 2nd, I did not have the initiative to withdraw. I continued to retake Calculus II, figuring this was the one bump I needed to overcome. Mind you, one symptom of children diagnosed with ADHD is an uncanny ability to ignore consequences, or to see only short term. What would happen once I DID pass Calculus II? Would I, all of a sudden, understand all that I needed to do in the next classes? Why would my habits change at all? It really did not occur to me. All I thought about what, "I need to just pass Calculus II." That was my goal, but it was a meaningless goal.
Eventually, I switched to computer sciences, as I'd taken an introduction class in which I designed a simple HTML. I found it rather enjoyable, so I started learning about computer languages. I took introduction to object oriented programming (Java). I kind of followed, but I was still constantly skipping classes. I would do well on the first couple tests, but flunk the lab exams, when I was supposed to put the concepts into action. Mind you, all this time, I still owe those 2 essays. In winter of 2008, I wake up one night, have a random urge to be productive. I sit down, write my essay for the poetry class, and the next morning I bring it to my professor. He sends me an email back a few days later stating that it was a good effort, and would like me to look over some possible changes to make it better. I, in so many words, say I am fine with what it is, and don't wish to do anything else. He eventually tells me that I will get a C in the course, and I just accept it.
He sends in the appeal, it is granted, and I have that F turned into a C. In my mind, I just made a huge step, and that was worth a bit of relaxation. I still have 1 essay due for the 9 hours class, but I had not read the books that were required for the analysis. I would order the cliffnotes for the books, and bookmark pages that related to them, but I would never do anything further. I just kept letting myself distract myself with other things.
In the middle of 2009, I had a big problem at my current work, delivering pizzas. I left, and found myself without any income for about 6 months. I used this time to watch TV, be lazy, and really just make empty promises to myself. I started running up my credit cards like I'd never left work, and pretty much maxed two. Eventually, an old buddy called me about a job he worked at, where they needed a driver. I started working there, soon after. It went relatively well, though the pay was very erratic, since the tips were usually less than optimal. I found myself struggling with menial tasks assigned me to. I could not differentiate dressings, I could not properly use their outdated systems, I would annoy people whose orders I would try to take. It was basically killing my soul. I got to the point where I was feeling completely overwhelmed. For some reason, this job was eating away at me. I was dealing with only jerks, amoral pigs, and downright trash. Nothing was redeeming in this job.
It was at this time that I started feeling so low, so bad, I would call in every other day with an excuse not to come in, whether it was due to a headache, or not being able to start up my car. Or anything really. My headaches were mostly faked, but I got to the point where I was starting to believe I actually had them. My boss would tell me I had to come in anyways and they'd give me a remedy, but I'd put on a sick facade, and close myself into the office, close my eyes, and don the pose of a sickly worker. I'd actually eventually start to get such headaches.
It was then that the REAL headaches started to occur. I was beginning to feel so bad, to hurt and hate myself so much... I was seriously contemplating suicide for a while. Something had to change...
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EPT
