After MLG Dallas was over, the Live On Three crew decided to do a special post-event pre-show for the community. What followed was a mixture of posts that highlighted the positives and the negatives of this broadcast. While some of the posts outlined impending doom on eSports due to the content the special LO3 presented, other posts were very appreciative of the effort and the "behind the scenes" look at a community they are actively involved with.
The underlying theme of most of the posts (which tipped the negative scales) were about "professionalism" and the idea that eSports is doomed without it. I wanted to speak on the idea of "professionalism" from my perspective having nearly a decade of experience in this particular industry.
However, before I do go into it... I wanted to address the show itself.
First and foremost, I thought it was fucking excellent. Having a nearly unlimited supply of amazing talent at the party made it the BEST location to do exactly what we were aiming to do. Our goal was to provide the community a post-event content piece that leveraged the players, community members, and fans with a very casual and friendly environment.
After the post on TL, I received tons of emails from people who really enjoyed the show... and most of them had concerns that because of the negative responses in that thread we would discontinue shows "like" this one.
DO NOT WORRY. It'll never happen. Ever. Because it goes against everything that I believe in and that LO3 believes in. If the MLG Dallas event was the Super Bowl, the LO3 which followed was the reality show which gave insight to the Super Bowl that you would not have seen otherwise.
I'm happy to answer specific questions about the show itself, but it's time to move onto the main focus for this blog:
PROFESSIONALISM
Or more importantly... why it doesn't really fucking matter. (Yet).
Don't get me wrong. I think being professional is an important part of one's success. But if I decided to take a strictly professional approach to Pro-Gaming, I would not be where I am today, nor would I had the experiences in gaming that I've had over the past 12 years.
People need to realize that we are not under a microscope of scrutiny right now. And it's going to be quite a long time before we are.
If you want to see "Professional", go look at the amazing work of the MLG Broadcast team (from casters to production) for the Dallas Finals. Three days of great content presented in a professional manner while retaining the "fun" factor of games.
If you want to see "Professional", go watch one of the 100 LIVE shows that CGS did.
I've been successful in this business because I know how to turn on the "Professional" switch. MLG hired me despite the fact that I had been verbally open about their league, competitions, and mistakes in the past. They hired me because they knew that I could provide the "Professional" Anchor role that they needed. CGS hired me despite the fact that I was actively involved in a daily gaming show called Epileptic Gaming which featured an often vulgar look at video games and guests who included porn stars and Playboy bunnies.
I just want to make it very clear to everyone who thinks otherwise, that you CAN straddle the line... and I'll do it till I die.
Of course, it's not quite as simple as that. Gaming is DIFFERENT. Gaming feeds off a culture of individuals who is actively involved in the internet, their respective communities, and the personalities who consistently engage their audiences. Because of this, gaming can be a little bit more edgy, a little bit more creative, and maybe even a little bit "unprofessional".
Now let me explain the "straddle". For those who know of my work outside of casting, you know that I do 3 shows a week that certainly border on "unprofessional". However, I don't see it that way.
Obviously, the "professional" line is the easy one to explain. I've been fortunate enough to share my "professional" side with many different organizations, and as a result, I don't have much trouble finding work with said organizations. They know that when it comes to their event, I have their best intentions in mind and I will put on the show they want. Never once have I heard this, "Man Wheat, we'd love to hire you, but in the last episode of Epileptic Gaming you called Peter Monyleux a douchebag and said the word FUCK 18 times." At this point people may be thinking, "God Wheat you're talking about yourself alot..." but I want to use my history to prove that I've always maintained a standing in the industry while jumping back and forth between the "professional" and "unprofessional" line. I've been on both sides of the fence, and both of them are EQUALLY important to the success of Pro-Gaming.
So now I want to explain that "unprofessional" side of things. And this is a little tougher to explain.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, Epileptic Gaming, Weapon of Choice... is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
But I also feel like these sorts of shows speak to the community and audience of gamers much more than a post-produced shitbag of a show that you'd see on G4 or IGN. It's not real. Not genuine. And it's mostly fabricated bullshit. Do these shows on these mentioned channels grow community? Fuck no. State of the Game grows community... Weapon of Choice grows community... these types of people and shows who funnel their passion into content... that's what grows community.
AND THAT'S GOD DAMN IMPORTANT FOR US RIGHT NOW. Before SC2 and gaming in general blows up to be a true spectator sport, we have to prove that we have a community of people who will support it.
As a community our #1 focus should be to support the growth of said community, the introduction and education of new members of the community, and activities/shows/tournaments which encompass the growth of the community. We should not be worrying about the "professional" image of Pro-Gaming because there's not a terrible amount that we can do to help or hurt it. We need to let companies worry about professionalism (MLG, WCG, GSL, etc) while we ourselves remain aware of it. We cannot let the illusion of "professionalism" hinder community growth.
Now... when Mountain Dew wants to pay me $10 Billion dollars to be clean-cut Wheat, that's when I'll jump the line to "professional".
But until then, I'm going to continue to walk the line. To provide "professional" services to those organizations who want and need it... while growing the community with entertaining content that is meant FOR the community.
I think you did a great job during the event and after. I enjoyed the interviews that were done with the players @ LO3, they showed a different side of gaming to me that was more enjoyable. They weren't reading some script they were themselves.
I thought to Lo3 was a great cast; it really showed the "human" side of progaming. A lot "professionals" seem to treat just being a regular person as something that should never see the light of day, but I'm glad that so far, esports isn't like that.
If I have anything to say about it, keep casts like these coming.
I caught the tail end of it after coming home from a few beers, it was amazing to see and hear. If people have issues with that type of thing, let me listen in on Spooky's crew casting.
Don't change at all DJ. You bring the community awesome shows. I have been a fan of yours for a long time. It is nice to see someone able to switch genre's and still put on a great show.
Keep up the great work!
I don't get why some people felt your show was bad, it is like TV if you don't like the show don't watch.
that LO3 was the best ever... it put faces and personalities into these alias that we see on a computer screen... that alone makes me want to support esport more
The after show was awesome, people who may be drunk say hilariously inappropriate things. I dread the day that esports forces players to 'act professionally' 100% of the time.
lol, wtf? people need to grow down, we're talking teens and teens at heart playing video games here. professional would be boring, it's good to see real people with real personalities. keep doing what you're doing wheat, its hilarious. when you yelled at huk "fuck you, its idra", i was laughing my ass off.
people are gonna take esports seriously if it's entertaining, not if it's prim and proper; this "market" isn't generally offended by unprofessionalism, once it's big enough for the masses, then you start worrying about it. and the official cast was definitely professional, you guys were wearing suits and shit, and i didnt hear any swearing. great job, keep it up, you're one of the people making esports big!
and state of the game is hilarious too, i can't help laughing, even in public.
I loved it Wheat. I only caught the tail end it but thought it was awesome. Was great to see the people behind the gamers. The face behind the replay so to speak. I think that even viewed in a "professional" context the LO3 afterparty was just that, an afterparty. After an intense weekend of focus, it showed people just letting their hair down and having fun together.
Even in organizations that are considered highly "Professional", they walk a line. All of the top rated sports radio programs where I live are a little edgy. Yeah - it's different because they have rules and regulations. Honestly, that freedom is a small part of what makes Lo3 and WoC great programs.
The fact is that the swearing and what-not is used to improve the message. I think if the swearing came to the point where it became the message, well, I'd certainly stop tuning in, but people like djWheat et. al. do an amazing job of walking that line.
i'm pretty pissed I was stupid enough to schedule my flight back home on Sunday night, just so I wouldn't miss a worthless day of classes. looks like I missed out on the best of the MLG nights, next time I won't make that mistake
On November 11 2010 06:18 denzelz wrote: Seems like you are just trying to stay relevant by "straddling" the line. Vulgarity, controversy sells. Starcraft 2 needs to start selling itself.
If you really believe I'm trying to "stay relevant" by "straddling" the line... then I encourage you to check out my history. I've been supporting pro-gaming communities in this manner since 2002. I don't have any personal endeavor to "stay relevant", I only wish to help in the growth of the community.
You don't see me needing "vulgarity and controversy" while casting MLG, the EG Masters Cup, the WCG USA Finals, etc.
The point is there is a time and a place for everything, but to say I'm trying to cross the line to "stay relevant" is just inaccurate and I think my job history and involvement with various communities proves that.
And you're right. StarCraft 2 needs to start selling itself... and I think it already has. There's no doubt StarCraft 2 has the largest online gaming community who takes sincere interest in the competitive aspect of it (in a span of only a few months).
I'm pissed off at myself that I missed LO3 (and the finals for that matter...fuuuuuuu). I love your shows. And people need to stop bitching. If you (the everyone not-WHEAT) don't like something, then don't watch it. If a show has no audience, it's obviously going to mean fuck-all what the host says.
But WHEAT gets viewers because people can relate to whomever's on air. Can anyone honestly say they haven't called Peter Monyleux a douchebag?
WHEAT I applaud you. Fuck everyone else. You're the Howard Stern of gaming media.
On November 11 2010 06:09 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I'll be first in line for LO3's next post-MLG show. Good work
Agreed, I'll be watching right away every god damn second of it. I stayed at work 3 hours late because I didn't want to pack up my computer and miss 15 minutes of the show.
I want to comment on every point that I feel is relevant or that I might have an opinion on. Esports is a passion of mine, I love every single competitive game, some more than others, and I am highly critical of many. From Quake to CS 1.6 to fighting games to RTS's I follow it all, and love trying to pretend that I am on the "inside". I offer to moderate streams in the attempts of getting as close as possible to production because theres nothing I want more in my life than to be around pro gaming.
With all that said, I'm not sure how much of the TL community has been following djWHEAT for as long as I have. I was 13 years old when I first saw WHEAT casting games, and followed him religiously through the CGS years. I watch every single cast he does, epileptic gaming, WoC, LO3 (the most so), and all the casts he's done involving quake or starcraft 2 or any other game.
Like wheat said, he is able to turn on the professionalism switch better than anyone, and he CAN pride himself on that fact because its nearly impossible to argue against.
I had the privilege of meeting WHEAT at MLG DC and I must say, I've called in on his shows, and I've been mod'ing his stream for several months and it was an absolute honor to shake his hand, get his autograph, introduce myself to him and him ACTUALLY KNOWING who I am. This blew my mind that somebody who had been around gaming for over a decade is able to remember these names. When I finally did meet him I can say that you could tell the type of guy you were taking to. Wheat is 100% real. its the balance right in the middle of "I am a professional here to do my job and support esports while raising my kid" along with "I'm just here to be your friend, hang out, and have a hell of a good time"
To those who say you need professionalism in esports, you need people like WHEAT in esports. It was harped upon in the last (real) episode of LO3, where we were talking about how the fighting game community is one of the most brash, loud, grassroots, abrasive communities around, but they get by not from being professional but from being who they are.
That said, you will see WHEAT coming in to commentate major events (check Devastation 2010) where he did get some love but also some people bitching that he was too fluffed up for the fighting game community, and guess what, I guarantee you that WHEAT prefers being a professional when it comes to large scale events. He prides himself on high quality high production events, and that is what he brings.
You know, I have a million things to say about WHEAT and the LO3 crew but I think that could be saved for another time. I can only DREAM that one day I could be the host of a show like Live on Three. People might pride themselves in knowing this or that about gaming more than me, that they can beat me in a BO5 series, etc. But when it comes down to it, I've been following pro gaming since I was in the 4th fucking grade, that is one thing I won't back down on. I know pro gaming and I know where professionalism starts and ends, and I can say that WHEAT is what esports needs. Not just for his commentating abilities and mentoring others such as Rivington, Day[9], among others, but for everything he does for pro gaming. Like I said my dream is that I could one day be a host of a progaming show, whether its about SC2 specifically (WoC) or esports in general (LO3) those are the two shows that I wait for every single week and watch every single second of. They are my passion and my hobby.
People may not realize it but he is in my eyes the most influential person in esports, Na'vi, SK Gaming, Daigo, Boxer, Flash, Day9, Tasteless, all of them are a slice of the cake but WHEAT is the frosting that covers everything.
Wall of text, I know, but I hope that anyone who has the slightest interest in esports as a whole, not just TL or SC2 or BW, can take 3 minutes out of their time to read this. Hopefully WHEAT will himself too.
I'd like to thank djwheat and his gang, and all the folks on state of the game, and anyone involved in the content not directly related to the games themselves, for making non-korean events so much more entertaining than the korean ones. Watching proleague, osl,msl,gsl over the years has always had that barrier making the context, the drama and the people a little removed.
With state of the game and the last few post mlg events, it makes it so much cooler to see personalities and opinions show, as it makes games that much more exciting and entertaining, both live and in retrospect. This would not be possible if the hosts, people like djwheat and jp, didn't remember that not only are they and their guests all a bunch of nerds, but that the audience is a bunch of nerds, and understand that being uptight and professional has its place, and that place does not have to be all the time. They understand the topic can wander off to other games, tvshows, books, and other stuff we all like.
Thanks to everyone in the starcraft community for not being boring is my point.
Dude, screw professionalism and the people who were complaining. This wasn't a broadcast of a game, this wasn't a big event, it was a couple of dedicated SC fans bringing us hours of free content as a way to unwind after a long weekend. I really can't fathom why people would complain about it. It was exactly what I wanted to see, just you guys and the players hanging out and chatting like humans, not trying to sound like anyone or anything.
Also, why are people so quick to try and be something else? I love the SC community because it's a bunch of nerds who are insanely passionate about the game, I don't want people in sports jackets getting yelled at by higher ups for having a personality and being goofy.
Thanks Wheat for the show, it was great and I hope you can see past the BS and do it again next tournament.
I'm just disappointed at some the responses you got when you were hyping SCR. The ignorance that is "chad" for a game that is not SC2 is ridiculous. I feel both the FG community and SC community are built on something special, and people like that ruin it for everyone. I hope you'll address this one day.
Professionalism or not there were some fantastic interviews that came out of that cast, it wasn't like you were choosing between 60 minutes and a frat party as the hyperbole in that thread would suggest. Painuser came across really well in his interview, which is important because I don't think he's very well known yet. That long Ret/NonY interview was pretty insightful as well. There were definitely a lot of "professional" gems in between all the fun for people who are excited about e-sports.
My only complaint was that it was kind of hard to hear in the beginning, which is understandable given the circumstances.
Nice to see your reaction to all the haters~ for the record I put off watching dexter to watch the stream, and dexter is like the best damns show on tv. DjWHEAT fighting!
Esports needs professionalism, but it also needs community.
I think Wheat adds just as much to the scene by being less professional, by being more 'usual netizen' with his shows like WoC, because there's a need to be able to raise issues, to draw attention to things, and to build the community at the level it functions on. I love that Wheat can be an e-drama whore one minute on WoC, through every game it's focused on, and turn around to be a reliable anchor for an event that needs professionalism for its business standing. The community isn't a bunch of professionals, we're just angry nerds.
There's a role for both, and I'm pretty sure every sports scene has both. No reason the same guy can't do both.
On November 11 2010 06:35 tehguy wrote: Dude, screw professionalism and the people who were complaining. This wasn't a broadcast of a game, this wasn't a big event, it was a couple of dedicated SC fans bringing us hours of free content as a way to unwind after a long weekend. I really can't fathom why people would complain about it. It was exactly what I wanted to see, just you guys and the players hanging out and chatting like humans, not trying to sound like anyone or anything.
Also, why are people so quick to try and be something else? I love the SC community because it's a bunch of nerds who are insanely passionate about the game, I don't want people in sports jackets getting yelled at by higher ups for having a personality and being goofy.
Thanks Wheat for the show, it was great and I hope you can see past the BS and do it again next tournament.
Couldn't agree more with this. I think more people need to realize that the opportunity to be a little "unprofessional" at times is a privilege that they shouldn't be so eager to abandon. I like seeing real personalities...and I love Wheat's commentary both at events and on his shows. I'm also very comfortable in knowing that one of the things that makes Wheat so great is that he wouldn't be swayed by a bunch of ignorant internet whiners. Keep up the great work...and can't wait for the next content you graciously provide this community.
On November 11 2010 06:36 Lovedrop wrote: I'm just disappointed at some the responses you got when you were hyping SCR. The ignorance that is "chad" for a game that is not SC2 is ridiculous. I feel both the FG community and SC community are built on something special, and people like that ruin it for everyone. I hope you'll address this one day.
Actually I think this would be a great topic for a next blog or even something to bring up on LO3.
I used to be THOSE GUYS. I used to think Quake was the ONLY game that anyone should ever care about and I would argue until I was blue in the face with that statement. It wasn't until I attended WCG 2002 and realized that one of the best things we can do as communities... is to RESPECT and APPRECIATE what other communities are doing, have done, or will do.
It was after that event that I began learning other games and getting more involved with other communities in an effort to make that happen. It's a great point you bring up and certainly something I believe in.
I'll definitely try to incorporate that into a blog/show soon.
If you allow call-ins for that, I'll be on skype ready and willing~
I'm not just saying this because of this blog but Wheat you are a fucking idol to me, what you do and how you are on the inside in pro gaming is what I strive to be able to have in my life some day.
I'm so glad you made this thread, because I also found some of the reactions to the LO3 show troubling. I was only able to catch the last 45 minutes of the broadcast but I found it immensely enjoyable. It was a great way to provide a level of insight and access to the guys that, most of the time, isn't achievable with text interviews, post game interviews or forum posts. I think the format was unrivaled in its ability to generate that "being there" feeling, which was really great for an event which I'm sure so many viewers wish they could have attended. In fact, I can honestly say I'm annoyed I didn't get to see the whole thing.
With regard to the topic of professionalism, and the criticism of of the broadcast as unprofessional, I think most, if not all, of the arguments against this type of broadcast are deeply flawed. The main reason for this is because many people hold an inaccurate view of what professionalism really means. Professionalism isn't a simple set of guidelines that encompasses every job, it's unique to every situation and it's defined by those working in that profession. Professionalism in the board room and professionalism on a talk show are two very different things. While they may share an overlap in similar expectations of decorum and decency, their standards and practices are not necessarily aligned.
I think a lot of posters have conflated this stereotypical, out-of-touch notion of professionalism with real professionalism to produce this idea that, in their head, makes sense but lacks any foundation in the real world. Professionalism isn't about wearing suits, being serious and not swearing. I have two bosses who curse like sailors, but there's nothing about their work ethic or mentality that would have me calling them unprofessional, because they can tailor their standards appropriately to a situation. The same happens everywhere, including on gaming shows.
Comedy Central used to run a show called Insomniac with Dave Attell where they essentially paid Attell, a comedian, to walk around different cities and night and get drunk. In most jobs, getting drunk would be considered unprofessional, but not for Attell, who defined his own standards of professionalism. Did sponsors pull out? Nope. In fact, the show ran for 4 seasons until Attell decided to pull the plug because it was too popular (and lost its crucial spontaneity). Ultimately, professionalism is about how you present a product to an audience while maintaining the integrity of the standards of your industry. Well, lucky for us, we are the audience and we are the industry, and we don't have to conform to some staid interpretation or plain-oatmeal mentality that might govern a Fortune 500 company. Do I think wheat was unprofessional for the LO3 show? Not at all. The fact that he continued to report from the event after his casting duties had ended was, if anything, above and beyond the call of professionalism and helps set a standard that I hope more esports professionals will aspire to.
There is a difference between a tourney cast in the middle of a day and a cast from a hotel room at night. I didn't mind the LO3 show at all, I thought it was a lot of fun. I can understand why people wouldn't want to see that, but to actually have an issue with something like that is absolutely ridiculous.
If you want to see unprofessional commentary check out SSF4. It's a community staple (and most in the community are fine with that) - but you don't see the LO3 guys doing that sort of thing during an actual event. LO3 was a fun casual cast - and if I am at an event you can be damn sure I'll be trying to get in that room too.
Live on Three is the best eSports show on the internet right now. Wheat and crew are players and fans, first and foremost, and make a show that THEY would want to watch. We should all be grateful that they have good taste, that they are very talented, and that they choose to spend time using their talent to provide us with FREE content.
Wheat is easily the most professional broadcaster in eSports right now. I think most viewers aren't aware of the costs involved in producing content at broadcast quality (for TV). The MLG casts are among the top in eSports at this time and aren't far from broadcast quality, yet they operate at a very small fraction of the costs of a television broadcast. We, as gamers, are spoiled by casters like Wheat and Day9 who are more professional and more insightful than MOST local sports broadcasters, yet they are paid almost nothing in comparison (and do quite a few events for no monetary compensation). Stop being so critical and enjoy their content. If you don't like it, turn it off.
I think you have to put it into context really, I mean it wasnt like this was a national tv broadcast or anything, this was casted late night on an internet stream which didnt promise it to be anything else than what it reallly was; progaming without the fluff.
I think djwheat did an excellent job during mlg and that the lo3 show didnt disappoint in anyway either, rather I look forward to more of said 'behind-the-scences' content - maybe not on TV but on the internetz - where it'll work just great.
Thank you for supporting esports and keep up the good work djwheat & crew.
Honestly, I don't think the vast majority of your viewers would have you any other way. It certainly seems to me that the players also appreciate the flip side of the professional coin and queue up to be interviewed...certainly seemed that way at that broadcast anyway (I swear it looked like ret was standing right off camera for like an hour waiting for his turn )
Keep it up Wheat, the haters just need to see more of your stuff to know why it works as it is
Hey man I just want to personally(as personal as an anonymous post on a forum can be...) thank you guys and the crew for the production you give us every week.
I really appreciate it and it adds a lot to the community and eSports in general. Whenever Lo3 is on I spread the word like an STD.
Thanks for doing what you do, i'm proud to be part of the same community as you guys. Big ups and keep being the fuckin awesome Wheat that you are.
there's not a lot to add. while the critics seemed to have good intentions, they were mostly off. you've obviously got a firm grasp on what you're doing and are pretty damn good at doing it. it's good to see you taking serious note of criticism and better still to see you calmly defend the way you work when you feel it necessary.
at the risk of being redundant in this thread, keep it up. you're a highlight in this community. fuck yeah, keep being yourself.
Dude the show was great if anything it let us see the players in a bigger light (outside of the game) and you then felt more involved in the whole scene, never change and fuck the haters like everyone above is saying.
Its a stupid argument. Have they never listened to a sports radio station? Wheat's radio show is often more 'professional' than 90% of radio shows out there in the 'regular' world. Only when some drama erupts in the sportsnation does everyone get serious, otherwise its just bickering and crackjokes all the time.
Regular sports broadcasts only seems professional because they are on national television and wear suits. There is a form and etiquette they have to follow otherwise the stupid drones that watch them may start writing in the complaints.
But a good example of a show that can be serious, professional, and yet still have fun - NBA on TNT. They are a smart, humorous, and well mixed group of people that provide great insight and great entertainment - much like what I find with various SC2 presentations like wheat's show and state of the game.
Much like the stupid commentator threads that plague TL, just ignore the criticism. You guys do a great job for esports. Keep it up.
I love all your shows and especially loved the MLG after-party broadcast. It gave great insight into the players as people instead of just players, which lets people develop real affiliation even if they can't travel 1,700 miles to the event
As someone who generally doesn't like vulgarity and curse words, i dislike fake people even more. LO3 showed us the real people behind the curtain, so to say, and it was very entertaining. We end up seeing the pro's and such as real people not just faces of players we would like to be as good as.
Although i wasn't able to catch the whole thing (the ending) where maybe more or less of the "offensive" stuff happened, i totally disagree with people ripping the show for it. It would be different if the show was clothed in a "100% clean cut family zone" wrapping, then faked you out. Wheat's programming has always been adult and never tries to make itself something it's not. If you don't like it, you're welcome to change the channel.
It's not like it was the headline of MLG, where those two dudes try to give a sportscenter type look at the matches/previews. It's a niche event, for a certain type of audience. Maybe in the future, just for concience sake, put a disclaimer on the ustream so the soccer moms will get fair warning of what little Jimmy is watching. Other than that, i think the content that was able to be shown, with everyone able to let their hair down, was much more valuable, then trying to show everyone on their best behavior. You already had the whole MLG weekend for that.
why you do something is always more important that what you do, there a lot of gaming shows, but very few have real passion for games, thats more important than professional or not
I really enjoyed the show! One thing that I learned maybe a year and a half ago was the separation between the "professional" and "off-air" aspects of e-sports. I mean I doubt it's any different in "professional sports", such as basketball, where you don't go around dropping f-bombs in the middle of interviews or when you're in uniform- but in any other case, who the hell cares?! In the same way, if say iNcontroL had been swearing while official interviews were being given, ya that wouldn't be a good thing- but once he's out of that setting, who the hell cares?!
It's stated every episode of State of the Game, it's posted all over the forums, hell even Artosis said it:
Take the stick out of your asses!
I think a good contrast to the Starcraft community is the Street Fighter community. The only "professional" cast I have seen is evo, all the other big events are, as the LO3 folks put it, very "urban". So, yeah when pretty much all of your biggest events are like this it's a bit more difficult to get money into the scene. As an aside, I love the SF community- I think the work the casters do is great, and I also get the feeling that the state of mind is that most people just want to keep it to it's "roots", which is fine. The Starcraft scene doesn't have this problem (if you consider it to be one). All of the biggest events are casted in a professional manner, as to attract viewership (and therefore sponsorship).
In short, thank you for the show djWHEAT! I am glad to hear that you won't discontinue that kind of thing, I think it really adds a lot to the community.
Just tagging along the agree-with-wheat train. You absolutely nailed it, people need to calm down and not take everything like it's a presidential debate. This is the gamer community, and with it comes gamer culture. We're not formal corporations, politicians or television broadcasters. We're gamers showing off our passions for games that we love as we know best. Personally I wouldn't even mind if every Lo3 show was as laid back as that MLG night. As a child of the Internet I know there's faaaaar worse out there than gamers swearing at each other and engaging in jokes of the sexual variety. The show gave us real personalities, real emotions and felt incredibly inspiring to me, making me think "wow, the pros are just like you or me. They can lose to an opponent in a massive tournament and party with him a few hours later no problem." It was a really awesome show to watch and I hope to see another one like it in the future.
I watched the whole cast from "It's muted bitches" to finish, and I just wanted to say that I absolutely loved every minute of it, and that pompous, douchey sounding "open letter" response on the forums had me very concerned that you might not do something like this again. I thought about sending you a PM on the matter, but I assumed (correctly, it seems) that a bunch of others already had. Keep it up Wheat, I, and a shit ton of other people, love your work. Also thanks for getting me into SF4.
On November 11 2010 06:27 ZlaSHeR wrote:People may not realize it but he is in my eyes the most influential person in esports, Na'vi, SK Gaming, Daigo, Boxer, Flash, Day9, Tasteless, all of them are a slice of the cake but WHEAT is the frosting that covers everything.
Unfortunately I missed everything but the last 5 minutes but I've seen quite a lot of stuff by you and I really have to say that I think you're the last to be called "unprofessional". I don't really know how to say it but whenever I see you doing something whether it'd be casting or an interview or your shows or even an event like this I always get the feeling you're acting appropriately with a professional mindset in the back of your head. I have a lot of respect for you and I hope you keep doing what you're doing for ESPORTS!
Also you and Day[9] are the very best commentating duo currently casting (along with Chill to make a trio, that'd be awesome!)
I wish I was as eloquent as Zlasher but I'm not so I'll just say yeah, djWHEAT you are definitely my favorite personality in all of eSports, probably because of how easy to relate to you are for me personally. It was so cool to meet you in person and see how you're just like you are on stream (in fact, everyone is in the sc2 community really..)
Anyway I'm pretty much an esports spectator only, with a full time developer job & a wife, so I'm right there with you about supporting multiple communities. When you guys mentioned SCR at the MLG after show, I immediately tuned in and got to see an amazing game against Daigo (who lost again, wow).. I hope you guys keep it up (I know you will), and I'll be tuning in for years to come, I'm sure.
Day9 mentioned on SotG that it'd be the coolest thing ever if in the future esports is mainstream and he can look back and say "I had a part in that" and I think we can all agree that if that day comes it's 100% certain that you'll be able to say that.
djWHEAT you may be my favorite personality in esports next to Day9 and I toon into his show every night its on so thats saying a lot and I love the way you "straddle" that line, anyone can read a list of facts and opinions but not many can make me actually want to listen to them instead of just read it for myself.
Keep bringing us great info and opinions with a delivery that actually makes me care about more then just the words and I can promise I'll be be a fan for years to come.
And to the people calling them unprofessional, what the hell have you done? I challenge you to do half of what shows like the one spoken about have done for this community and the gaming community as a whole.
Being from the UK, I stayed up until past 6am on a work night just to watch this episode of LO3 and thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it. As Marcus said, there is a place for professionalism and a place for "other" content and I personally really enjoy both. I'm a huge fan of the LO3, EG and WoC crew and my only hope is that they continue to produce this awesome content for the community.
Another point I'd like to bring up, which is probably going to insight some hate form his fans (I'm one too!) is Day9's comments on the whole thing on recent SotG. The LO3 crew, SirScoots especially, downright refused to show the majority of what was going on at the party (for good reason) and it was only down to what appeared to be huge pressure from the stream viewers, that he did a quick 30 second pan of the room late in the cast. This unfortunately caught Sean when he was trying to relax which is what I imagine triggered his, in my opinion, over-the-top negative comments on SotG.
As an additional note: The author of the thread that this is a reply to seemed to be extremely offended by the sexual comments Slasher made in relation to the one female that was in the room at the time. If the author is reading this, please do some research in to who that person was and realise that she get's far worse comments than that on a regular basis from the blog she publishes. Does that make it okay? Probably not, and though I obviously can't speak for her, I don't imagine for a moment she was offended in the slightest and incase you stopped watching, she came and sat next to Slasher at the end of the broadcast.
I personally though InControL's comments were more, um, "interesting"? ;p
i loved the show please dont let anyone tell u otherwise. im sad some people dont understand how to enjoy themselfs and take things for what they are. ITS A DAMN VIDEO GAME THEYRE COVERING!!!! Please continue to give excellent inside of the professional scene. DJ Wheat/DAY9 FTW!!!!!
DJ Wheat, Keep doing what you're doing. Esports isn't going to grow on professionalism. If it ever gets big it's going to be built on people's enthusiasm and passion for Esports, it's going to be people like you, day9 junkka and everyone else who contributes because they love esports so much.
great read wheat, although i'm one of those people that just thought the lo3 special was just awesome, i actually didn't think it was this controversial o.o
On November 11 2010 06:52 BroOd wrote: I'm so glad you made this thread, because I also found some of the reactions to the LO3 show troubling. I was only able to catch the last 45 minutes of the broadcast but I found it immensely enjoyable. It was a great way to provide a level of insight and access to the guys that, most of the time, isn't achievable with text interviews, post game interviews or forum posts. I think the format was unrivaled in its ability to generate that "being there" feeling, which was really great for an event which I'm sure so many viewers wish they could have attended. In fact, I can honestly say I'm annoyed I didn't get to see the whole thing.
With regard to the topic of professionalism, and the criticism of of the broadcast as unprofessional, I think most, if not all, of the arguments against this type of broadcast are deeply flawed. The main reason for this is because many people hold an inaccurate view of what professionalism really means. Professionalism isn't a simple set of guidelines that encompasses every job, it's unique to every situation and it's defined by those working in that profession. Professionalism in the board room and professionalism on a talk show are two very different things. While they may share an overlap in similar expectations of decorum and decency, their standards and practices are not necessarily aligned.
I think a lot of posters have conflated this stereotypical, out-of-touch notion of professionalism with real professionalism to produce this idea that, in their head, makes sense but lacks any foundation in the real world. Professionalism isn't about wearing suits, being serious and not swearing. I have two bosses who curse like sailors, but there's nothing about their work ethic or mentality that would have me calling them unprofessional, because they can tailor their standards appropriately to a situation. The same happens everywhere, including on gaming shows.
Comedy Central used to run a show called Insomniac with Dave Attell where they essentially paid Attell, a comedian, to walk around different cities and night and get drunk. In most jobs, getting drunk would be considered unprofessional, but not for Attell, who defined his own standards of professionalism. Did sponsors pull out? Nope. In fact, the show ran for 4 seasons until Attell decided to pull the plug because it was too popular (and lost its crucial spontaneity). Ultimately, professionalism is about how you present a product to an audience while maintaining the integrity of the standards of your industry. Well, lucky for us, we are the audience and we are the industry, and we don't have to conform to some staid interpretation or plain-oatmeal mentality that might govern a Fortune 500 company. Do I think wheat was unprofessional for the LO3 show? Not at all. The fact that he continued to report from the event after his casting duties had ended was, if anything, above and beyond the call of professionalism and helps set a standard that I hope more esports professionals will aspire to.
I very much agree with BroOd's point about professionalism being situational. It is definitely a point that I'm guessing many of the LO3 critics failed to take into account, and being able to recognize and work with situational professionalism and appropriateness is, from my perspective, a sign of true dedication, versatility, and talent. I very much support djWHEAT's comments on this issue, especially as I've considered him a role model/mentor from two years ago when I started out in the eSports scene myself.
HOWEVER
I think it's important to recognize that a major part of the reason djWHEAT can "straddle the line" so effectively is that he has the experience and track record to back it up. In other words, I think this ability in and of itself is situational to djWHEAT and other veterans like Slasher. Those of us who are not as credentialed in the eSports scene would, I think, do well to approach the arena from a more rather than less "professional" (i.e. clean cut, formal as opposed to casual) standpoint as the eSports scene becomes more and more commercialized and developed.
djWHEAT has his own voice and he has stuck by that voice for many years, which is something I and I'm sure many, many other people respect him for. He manages to be "professional" at certain times and "unprofessional" at other times without losing that distinctive voice, which is very difficult to do. So, I think that, generally speaking, unless you have the confidence and experience to know when to be "professional" and when to be "unprofessional," it's better to err on the side of "professional" because it comes off better in most cases. I've been covering this scene on and off for two years and I still get confused sometimes as to when I can be more "unprofessional," which is why I always try to be professional first until I can get a better idea of who or what I'm dealing with. It's a strategy that's done pretty well for me so far in terms of meeting people and finding interesting opportunities.
Relatedly, I think it's important not to equate "unprofessional" with "genuine" or "authentic." For djWHEAT, they may be connected in that he might feel more "himself" when he's kicking back with a beer and calling whoever a douchebag on LO3 than when he has to put on a suit jacket for an official event. Or maybe not, since I think one of djWHEAT's hallmarks is that he finds a way to be genuine no matter the situation. However, there are other people, like myself, who are more comfortable being "professional" (i.e. a little more formal and distant) first before being more casual, but this does not necessarily denote a lack of authenticity. I am still authentic when I say "it's a pleasure to meet you" and "thank you for your time," even if I'm acting "professional." Perhaps this will change in the future, but for now it works the best for me.
i think your material is great, and your presentation even better. stiff shit doesn't last long in the community consciousness at all - we've seen the rise and fall of various ESPORTS celebs on even these forums based solely on how they resonate with their fellow nerds.
also thx 4 dropping mad knowledge bombs about pee tests at mlg dc lmfao
djWheat, I've been a fan since the old TsN days. You continue to be one of the most entertaining and talented persons in casting. Keep up the great work, and I'm excited for the next EG Masters Cup so I can watch you and day[9] again.
Sounds like its just a bunch of flame-bait posts that you are responding to wheat. Best to ignore that shit and wait for someone to actually make a well thought out and reasonable arguement against the show so you can have a proper discussion.
I'm sure at least one of your detractors had made a good post. I would of liked to see a quote of it so i dont just dismiss them as simply being "haters".
I'm really glad you made this post, I think it will definitely make the critics pause and consider the idea of "straddling the line", and why it's important. I wasn't that much a fan of the after show LO3, but that's why i fucking turned it off half-way through, it just wasn't my type of thing, although some of it was quite entertaining. I think a lot of people need to take the whole "don't like it, get out" idea literally. Unless it is somehow affecting you and the community negatively beyond you watching the content, then why are you complaining?
You bring professionalism to e-sport in any cast you do with day9 on these live events. It seems so easy to do as a spectator, but there is no doubt that you bring it to these events. A big part of the reason you can bring it, is probably beceause you are real.
Sorry Wheat, you can be edgy and fun without resorting to tired, unoriginal words like that. Unprofessional to drop f-bombs in your post.
You can't expand your audience if you restrict it (by your language) to people who don't want to hear f-bombs that often. You don't wait until you magically have a giant community to be professional. You act professional to get the credibility that will allow you to grow and go mainstream.
I'm not saying you need professionalism during LO3, WoC or your porn stuff, but know this:
Profanity is the attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcibly. Grow up.
Loved the post MLG LO3, that type of unwound and behind the scene look at progaming has a place in this scene, and I think always will no matter how big SC2 gets. LO3 isn't modeled on nothing afterall, anyone who has even accidentally listened in on sports radio shows should immediately recognize the same atmosphere, the same professionalism, and the same community-building effect. Players can unwind/vent, casters can analyze and build their understanding and player rapport, and fans can feel plugged in and strengthen their commitment to their favorite personalities or the scene as a whole.
Considering what TIME the show was broadcasted it's acceptable. LO3 was awesome, and a crime if you stop being awesome on that show, seriously you'll hear from my lawyers Wheat. Continue to rock!
Guys there's a sex show at 10 on the radio I tune into all the time, it's hilarious. People call "Dr.Drew" at 102.1 The Edge about their sex problems, most of them get slammed/trolled/ or laughed at for being stupid. Really explicit shit too, not PG junk. If you thought LO3 was crossing the line, you are fail. WHEAT ROCK ONNNNNNNNNN SIRRRR
On November 11 2010 08:14 Slardarxt wrote: Considering what TIME the show was broadcasted it's acceptable. LO3 was awesome, and a crime if you stop being awesome.
Guys there's a sex show at 10 on the radio I tune into all the time, it's hilarious. People call "Dr.Drew" at 102.1 The Edge about their sex problems, most of them get slammed/trolled/ or laughed at for being stupid. Really explicit shit too, not PG junk. If you thought that was crossing the line, you are fail. WHEAT ROCK ONNNNNNNNNN SIRRRR
not sure if it has been pointed out before, but in a Sense alot of "celebrities" do similar "unprofessional" stuff, an Adam Carolla Podcast is WAY WAY worse, at times even hosting politicians, actors etc. From an europe perspective it also seems incredibly weird so see those public outcries over "things you shall not do"(biggest example: Janet Jacksons nippleslip in the superbowl), bleeping so much in shows or songs, while almost everybody knows, the reality isnt that way, the reality is like its shown in those podcasts, may it be SotG, Lo3, Adam Carolla or Bill Simmons.
I am really really happy the internet finally provides an unfiltered, uncensored medium where people can really speak their mind, like i´d do with my mates.
Especially liked your comparison to the superbowl. Rex Ryan in Hard Knocks dropped more F-Bombs than 3 Blue Flame Helions drop Probes in my Mineral Line.
Please keep doing the stuff you do(thx btw wheat :D), keep dropping F-bombs, let Incontrol rant, and for those complaining, dont watch the content(which is free btw) given to the community by those nice and awesome guys
(oh 111th post on the 11-11-10, shoulda waited a year for that one)
I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
On November 11 2010 08:14 Slardarxt wrote: Guys there's a sex show at 10 on the radio I tune into all the time, it's hilarious. People call "Dr.Drew" at 102.1 The Edge about their sex problems, most of them get slammed/trolled/ or laughed at for being stupid. Really explicit shit too, not PG junk. If you thought LO3 was crossing the line, you are fail. WHEAT ROCK ONNNNNNNNNN SIRRRR
Loveline is an amazing radio show, LOL.
That being said;
People need to stop getting so uptight over such a silly thing. If you're so disgusted at the use of vulgarities and what some view as "unprofessionalism", then don't watch...
Kennigit said it best:
Things Lo3 is trying to do: uncensored and interesting exposure of esports. Things Lo3 is not trying to do: get syndicated on NPR, Vision and The Women's Television Network.
edit: For the record I LOVE every show djWHEAT produces, especially EpilepticGaming..
On November 11 2010 08:10 0neder wrote: Sorry Wheat, you can be edgy and fun without resorting to tired, unoriginal words like that. Unprofessional to drop f-bombs in your post.
You can't expand your audience if you restrict it (by your language) to people who don't want to hear f-bombs that often. You don't wait until you magically have a giant community to be professional. You act professional to get the credibility that will allow you to grow and go mainstream.
I'm not saying you need professionalism during LO3, WoC or your porn stuff, but know this:
Profanity is the attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcibly. Grow up.
Lol..... It all depends on the environment and what you are trying to achieve. My cousin gets paid to get fucking wasted all day at work and party his ass off. Seriously.
Is he being professional by most standards? Shit no. Is he being ULTRA Professional for his career? Shit yes.
Last I check LO3 was not about being the politically correct show, it was about delivering E-sports info in a open format, and it's worked.
DJwheat is the man, and I seriously love how he runs his show. I think it's a great show and he's absolutely right (as usual), we can get away with it now. In the future (10+ years here) when E-Sports is mainstream maybe not, but at the moment we can.
By the way, ever hear of this guy? Let me quote you some of the shit he has publicly said
“The guy sells T-shirts for a fuckin living, and now he wants to be a promoter? A T-shirt guy doesn’t know what he doesn’t know about this business yet…. He’s going to find out, though.” "If I were him, I'd want to fight me too. Why would I fight this goof? He's neither a fighter or a promoter, he's a f***ing loser." “Bring in those pompous, arrogant jackasses from Shotime, and they can come in, and I’d bring in, who’s our smallest fighter we have? Bring in a 100-pound fighter and kick the shit out of all of those dorks” "Go frost your fucking hair” “Whoever came up with that game plan ought to be kicked in nuts for 5 minutes" “This fight is a fucking freak show, and it's a fucking disgrace to the sport. We don't do that kind of thing in the UFC”
I'll even up the ante and post a video that he had recorded and released to the public himself:
This guy is the President and CEO of a multi billion dollar company that is the head of the largest growing sport in the world....
I honestly don't see what the big deal was. Sure a couple people were kickin back some beers, some weren't, there were a lot of people in the same room. I personally liked the show. I didn't see it as "unprofessional" at all, the whole thing just seemed like an lo3 show with a lot of people talking in the back ground which was unfortunate because it was sort of hard to hear things.
I've been following Wheat since the early days listening to EG on winamp, staying up really late listening to QLAN's being covered trying to sync up with gtv and winamp at the same time. I would even listen to Wheat cast Counterstrike (and I freaking hate that game); simply because I support the guy. I even bailed on some friends in Guild Wars (EP guild) to play with VXIX (under the name dstar) just to play with Wheat. This guy has been an inspiration to many people and myself to keep on support esports. Never give up on what we've been dreaming of brother.
0neder (which reminds me of the movie That Thing You Do!) brings up a few interesting points that I want to respond to.
On November 11 2010 08:10 0neder wrote: Sorry Wheat, you can be edgy and fun without resorting to tired, unoriginal words like that. Unprofessional to drop f-bombs in your post.
I totally agree. That's why you don't hear me dropping F-Bombs during broadcasts like MLG, EG Masters, WCG, Deva2k10, etc. As far as dropping f-bombs in my post, my whole point is that it's ok to be "unprofessional". So we'll just have to disagree on that.
You can't expand your audience if you restrict it (by your language) to people who don't want to hear f-bombs that often. You don't wait until you magically have a giant community to be professional. You act professional to get the credibility that will allow you to grow and go mainstream.
I completely disagree with this. What I choose to do on my own individual shows and projects is entirely up to me. I served under the umbrella of several gaming organizations and a lack of freedom in my own creative outlets was jarring. When I finally left CGS I began my shows back up independently. At the same time I also sought out opportunities to let me continue my "professional" career as a gaming broadcaster (if there is such a thing). It worked out quite nice, as the show's audiences grew and I was able to expose many of them to a side of pro-gaming that they hadn't seen before. This resulted in interest.
So what actually happened is my obscenity accepting or "unprofessional" audience got exposed to the many events I was doing that may not have otherwise.
I haven't waited for a unicorn to vomit a giant community. I jumped on that ship back in 2002 when I began going to events and realizing that my particular taste in production doesn't work everywhere. That eventually led me to CGS which was the ultimate in "professional" game broadcasting. On DirecTV. There was no accidental F-Bomb allowance. That was the mainstream and everything was just fine.
I believe I have acted in a manner which has allowed me to earn the credibility to go mainstream while continuing to grow the community... the way I do.
I'm not saying you need professionalism during LO3, WoC or your porn stuff, but know this:
Profanity is the attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcibly. Grow up.
There's a hollowing truth to that statement. But to me it's language. And I don't want to grow up.
On November 11 2010 08:38 iCCup.Diamond wrote: A bunch of awesome relevant stuff about UFC and Dana White.
I heart you Diamond. Because I absolutely LOVE Dana White. He is one of the people I look up to in a major way.
Same here man, that guy has shown you can be edgy and be a person and still run a company or w/e. Part of the reason I'm so outspoken, I like his style, it's how I normally am, I don't wanna censor myself, I want to tell the truth with no sugar coating.
Profanity is the attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcibly. Grow up.
Being professional is doing your job without gumming up the works with a bad attitude or meaningless whining. A pornstar can be professional while spewing obscenities at the top of her lungs. People aren't concerned about "professionalism," they're concerned about their virgin ears. Take your own advice and grow up.
A bitchy nerd complaining about vulgar language on the internet... he's just a bitchy nerd. DJWheat is a man and talks like one.
haven`t seen the LO3 show, but I understand it this way: No matter what Job you`re in - all that counts is how "pro" you act when you are at work. I couldn`t care less about what a baker, construction worker, police officer or investment broker do in their private time. The only thing of importance is how they get their Jobs done and this should be the same in Gaming. When you play a role in eSports and get the opportunity to get heard/seen at a bigger Event, give everyone watching a good image of yourself and the scene. (sponsors and the whole scene will thank you) You can still talk trash, rage or whine about a million things when you are around friends or mates. To all the djwheats, Day[9]s, Huskys, HDs and Tastosis out there: keep up the good work, it is much appreciated!
I would like to draw a distinction between being genuine and being intentionally immature. I think you can be genuine and still be professional.
But for me at least there is a certain line where I defer to professionalism out of respect for the game itself.
I don't know where the line of professional vs fake or immature vs pandering is but I think it comes across in the soul of the material almost instantly. I can only hope that viewers resonate to this accordingly.
I myself try to cast towards the idealistic image of the player and the crowd, not necessarily the reality of it. Hopefully a degree of professionalism with honesty is communicated as a result.
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
That was a great show Wheat. Anyone that cannot make the distinction between professional casting at the MLG event and a "for fun" behind the scenes event at the afterparty is just being too uptight. You guys worked hard for 3 days, had a party celebrating a good show, let people "go backstage" for free, and then someone had the nerve to complain that you were having a good time? It's good to see that you are not letting anyone like that get to you and will continue to do things your way when you do not NEED to be professional.
I think Idra commented on stuff like this once. That on places like TL or various community shows he has no issue ravaging anyone for anything he wants to. But in a tourney setting when he's wearing sponsors gear, etc, he's not going to necessarily act the same way.
There are different formats for different things. Many football play-by-play guys, who rarely give an opinion on broadcast, also have their own radio shows where they tell it how they see it and are very opinionated. They fit the content to the audience. Any person worth their salt in that industry will do the same. They key is knowing when and when not to do this.
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
I would take that argument and ask "Why where the kids parents letting him stay up till 2 am on internet streaming sites?"
I didn't watch the LO3 show because when I loaded it up, it was djwheat and some others getting drunk and frat-boying it up. That's fine, but I would like you to know I quickly turned it off. As someone who regularly watches the usual fair, I was disappointed with that show.
As for the IGN and G4 community bit, that's just nonsense. Both the sites have a community. Maybe you do not agree with it, but to suggest Starcraft has a community because someone can openly be passionate (aka drop swears, get drunk on camera) and the others don't (they don't do said things) is a pretty naive statement.
I caught bits of the LO3 show that night, and it was really awesome to see that these games, who are normally just names to the normal TL lurker, are indeed actual people with thoughts and voices, and love a good pizza. That's what I thought the show was going for, and it did it perfectly. Its why I love shows like State of the Game, you get to see that these players aren't just a race and a name, they are actual people with faces and opinions. Keep doing what you do, Wheat, its awesome.
On November 11 2010 09:01 towers wrote: I didn't watch the LO3 show because when I loaded it up, it was djwheat and some others getting drunk and frat-boying it up. That's fine, but I would like you to know I quickly turned it off. As someone who regularly watches the usual fair, I was disappointed with that show.
As for the IGN and G4 community bit, that's just nonsense. Both the sites have a community. Maybe you do not agree with it, but to suggest Starcraft has a community because someone can openly be passionate (aka drop swears, get drunk on camera) and the others don't (they don't do said things) is a pretty naive statement.
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
I would take that argument and ask "Why where the kids parents letting him stay up till 2 am on internet streaming sites?"
The lack of responsibilities in others doesn't justify our own abandonment of responsibility. And I'm sure kids browse teamliquid and there was a link to the stream at top of the site.
I watched every minute of the LO3 after-MLG show. I loved it. I really did. But when I read the "open letter" that someone posted, it did make me think of something. There was a camera in the middle of a party of people with sponsors. I don't think anything said was offensive. I don't think anyone alienated their sponsors. I didn't think any of that. But I can't escape the sort of mental experiment of walking through what would happen if someone did go just a little too far? Said something they regretted, said something racist, bigoted, hateful, even in jest. I think it's something that players, casters, and community figures should think about to some degree.
I don't think they should moderate themselves, but I don't think it's as easy as "flipping a switch" or "straddling a line". No matter how much you don't want it to be the case you will always be the same Wheat or the same SC2 player to people watching, even in your personal time, even in your "non-professional" time.
That being said, I agree with you that I don't think we're under that much scrutiny, yet. But we see the press that SC2 is getting already. We want this to be big. If we want it to be as big as Korea someday, that will involve it getting to be under that much scrutiny. To that end, at least we should be careful what we do behind the camera, right?
To illustrate my point, I think the "line" might be this. Swearing, f-bombs, trash talk, drinking, that's seemingly fine to me. Seems reasonable. That's normal people being normal. But InControl's joke about dicks and assholes might be closer to the line.
Overall I find myself conflicted, because I did not find anything offensive about the show. However, I couldn't help but find some truth to what some of the people in the other thread were saying. I think prominent figures in the community do have some responsibility when they are portrayed in media, even if that is self-produced media. I don't know what that entails, but I think it should be in the conversation.
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
I would take that argument and ask "Why where the kids parents letting him stay up till 2 am on internet streaming sites?"
The lack of responsibilities in others doesn't justify our own abandonment of responsibility. And I'm sure kids browse teamliquid and there was a link to the stream at top of the site.
Should the kids also be allowed to watch Cinamax or Showtime at 2AM? You know what happens there? People fuck each other in full nudity. Seriously check it out, it's pretty cool stuff.
If this event had ran at 1PM EST, I could see a point but this is much like the issue of no kids being allowed to play violent video games. It should be the parents responsibility to choose what their kids do or don't watch and or play and to know when appropriate times for those activities are.
Wheat, keep doing what you do. And fuck these people ranting about professionalism. They're boring, they like boring stuff, and when I show friends people being "Top notch professionals," they get bored.
The after show was the best thing I've seen. And has made it so I'll put some serious effort into getting to the next MLG. Like you said, the less professional aspect, such as State of the Game (which is amazing) really do build the community. We like seeing other people that we relate to, getting pissed off about whatever we get pissed off about, and expressing it.
I got a complaint leveled at DJWheat. Every time you did a send off during tourney weekend you looked at your to-do list nearly the second you were done, 1-2 seconds before the camera swapped over every damn time.
As for the debate I'll simply quote the great thinker Prozac "it was no big deal, my dick was out for like two seconds." Now the dick has been put away and it can't hurt you anymore.
I really loved the aftershow to get a glimpse into what the behind-the-scenes is like. I stayed up much later than I should have to watch most of it and then watched the rest in the VOD the next day. Look forward to watching more after future events!
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
I would take that argument and ask "Why where the kids parents letting him stay up till 2 am on internet streaming sites?"
The lack of responsibilities in others doesn't justify our own abandonment of responsibility. And I'm sure kids browse teamliquid and there was a link to the stream at top of the site.
Should the kids also be allowed to watch Cinamax or Showtime at 2AM? You know what happens there? People fuck each other in full nudity. Seriously check it out, it's pretty cool stuff.
If this event had ran at 1PM EST, I could see a point but this is much like the issue of no kids being allowed to play violent video games. It should be the parents responsibility to choose what their kids do or don't watch and or play and to know when appropriate times for those activities are.
To further your point Diamond, I just thought I'd throw in that it was a Sunday night (school night).
I thought show was awesome. It's nice to see the players' personalities outside a gaming context (well mostly outside a gaming context haha). Keep up the good work
A very well formulated argument wheat and I agree with you completely. I thought the show was hilarious! It was really nice to get to see the players just being normal people having a good time. Keep up the awesome work!
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
I would take that argument and ask "Why where the kids parents letting him stay up till 2 am on internet streaming sites?"
The lack of responsibilities in others doesn't justify our own abandonment of responsibility. And I'm sure kids browse teamliquid and there was a link to the stream at top of the site.
Should the kids also be allowed to watch Cinamax or Showtime at 2AM? You know what happens there? People fuck each other in full nudity. Seriously check it out, it's pretty cool stuff.
If this event had ran at 1PM EST, I could see a point but this is much like the issue of no kids being allowed to play violent video games. It should be the parents responsibility to choose what their kids do or don't watch and or play and to know when appropriate times for those activities are.
I might be totally wrong here, but I remember watching the stream starting around 10-11 EST. I have a pretty bad perception of time at night, thanks to having so much homework.
Anyways, I'm not arguing for the show to change at all. But the violent video games and shows on Cinemax all have ratings and warnings. That's all I'm advocating.
Also, kids aren't going to just randomly turn on the TV and watch porn unless they intended to. But if you hear that you're favorite progamers are gonna be on a live show, from your favorite progaming website, you would definitely be interested.
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
I would take that argument and ask "Why where the kids parents letting him stay up till 2 am on internet streaming sites?"
The lack of responsibilities in others doesn't justify our own abandonment of responsibility. And I'm sure kids browse teamliquid and there was a link to the stream at top of the site.
Should the kids also be allowed to watch Cinamax or Showtime at 2AM? You know what happens there? People fuck each other in full nudity. Seriously check it out, it's pretty cool stuff.
If this event had ran at 1PM EST, I could see a point but this is much like the issue of no kids being allowed to play violent video games. It should be the parents responsibility to choose what their kids do or don't watch and or play and to know when appropriate times for those activities are.
I might be totally wrong here, but I remember watching the stream starting around 10-11 EST. I have a pretty bad perception of time at night, thanks to having so much homework.
Anyways, I'm not arguing for the show to change at all. But the violent video games and shows on Cinemax all have ratings and warnings. That's all I'm advocating.
Also, kids aren't going to just randomly turn on the TV and watch porn unless they intended to. But if you hear that you're favorite progamers are gonna be on a live show, from your favorite progaming website, you would definitely be interested.
There is not rating board int he world for internet streaming, so not the best example as we CANNOT legally rate our stuff being the FCC or whoever did not rate it.
Keep up the great work DJWheat! You're an awesome caster and I think the Day[9] / DJWheat combo is tied for my favorite along with Artosis / Tasteless. Adding technical observation along with humor is by far the best way to keep people watching and entertained.
Its crazy to see what some people will bitch about, especially when it comes down to a PRIVATE STREAM that they aren't forced to watch. Dudes, if you don't like it, don't watch it. It's seriously as simple as that.
Now of course if this was at the MLG live on stream and people are getting drunk and cussing live on stream that'd be different lol. But seriously, people need to just chill the fuck out and let people have some fun.
I unfortunately didn't catch your show so I can't comment on that but I loved your work (what I catched of it) during the beta. However as you / JP / Day are more and more the faces of SC2 it's important to differentiate yourself as an official caster on side A and an just for fun after party as side B. Not saying you shouldn't do the after parties but please state clearly at the beginning (as I said I didn't see it so I don't know if you did or not) that the after party is not a part of the official coverage of the MLG and that as more and more players join the party things may become less streamlined.
On November 11 2010 10:45 Golden Ghost wrote: I unfortunately didn't catch your show so I can't comment on that but I loved your work (what I catched of it) during the beta. However as you / JP / Day are more and more the faces of SC2 it's important to differentiate yourself as an official caster on side A and an just for fun after party as side B. Not saying you shouldn't do the after parties but please state clearly at the beginning (as I said I didn't see it so I don't know if you did or not) that the after party is not a part of the official coverage of the MLG and that as more and more players join the party things may become less streamlined.
I think the fact that it was streamed on a stream called "Cat in a Box" should have been a clue it was not MLG.
On November 11 2010 08:22 Clamev wrote: I just really really want to thank you wheat. It´s because of people like you that i love the current E-sports foreigner scene so much. Because it has character there are real fucking people playing this game, expressing they´re emotions, being competitive and celebrate wins and sometimes just the awesomeness of the game itself. I don´t want "professionalism in esport.At least not right know.I mean i really don´t want the players and or casters to be suit wearing puppets speaking the same corporate Bullshit that we hear from "profesional" sports like football(soccer for people who call Handeg football). I want to see that those people that i am watching and rooting for are real people with real emotions and people like you are making it so we can all see that and take part in the experience. And THAT is what keeps most people watching not the game itself(unfortunately) but the personalities and dramas around it.There is a reason why Firebathero is so famous,There is a reason why it was SUCH a huge upset that Bisu raped Savior.(for people who followed sc:bw). In the end what i want to say is, Do i want esports to be bigger and for it to be profitable and socialy acceptable to be a Progamer? Yes. Do i want it to be clean cut Dry washed coorperate bullshit like moste other things are? Fuck NO.So fuck " profesionalism " . And FUCK Yeah DjWheat.
I've seen this argument so many times. Being immature is not having personality. Being polite is not having no personality. People are rude and immature and you think that it is called showing emotion. You probably rage after every game and type strings of curses to your opponent, and now you want the pros to be like that too. Why? Because you have a self-serving need to see your own faults mirrored by those you look up to. You don't want the pros to show personality, you want them to show your personality.
A large amount of people who play video games project a volatile personality into the game to make up for a deficiency in real life. But not everyone.
Btw, firebathero was more infamous than famous for his dance. Also, if you look at his recent interviews, he has matured greatly and seems to see the value in doing so.
And yea I enjoyed the show but I feel bad for all of the children who watched because although most teens probably are used to that stuff, there are probably a few young and innocent kids who enjoy playing Starcraft and watching MLG. So maybe some sort of warning to them or their parents would be nice. They'll have their chance to go to frat parties later.
I would take that argument and ask "Why where the kids parents letting him stay up till 2 am on internet streaming sites?"
The lack of responsibilities in others doesn't justify our own abandonment of responsibility. And I'm sure kids browse teamliquid and there was a link to the stream at top of the site.
Should the kids also be allowed to watch Cinamax or Showtime at 2AM? You know what happens there? People fuck each other in full nudity. Seriously check it out, it's pretty cool stuff.
If this event had ran at 1PM EST, I could see a point but this is much like the issue of no kids being allowed to play violent video games. It should be the parents responsibility to choose what their kids do or don't watch and or play and to know when appropriate times for those activities are.
I might be totally wrong here, but I remember watching the stream starting around 10-11 EST. I have a pretty bad perception of time at night, thanks to having so much homework.
Anyways, I'm not arguing for the show to change at all. But the violent video games and shows on Cinemax all have ratings and warnings. That's all I'm advocating.
Also, kids aren't going to just randomly turn on the TV and watch porn unless they intended to. But if you hear that you're favorite progamers are gonna be on a live show, from your favorite progaming website, you would definitely be interested.
There is not rating board int he world for internet streaming, so not the best example as we CANNOT legally rate our stuff being the FCC or whoever did not rate it.
I didn't mean to get the stream rated, just like put a brief viewer discretion is advised thing like on TV shows that contain even mild violence or profanity or sex. That way people know what to expect so people who don't approve can just not watch. This might have helped prevent a lot of the disgruntled viewers, and even if they did complain, Wheat could just say "I warned you". I personally didn't have any complaints with the actual content, but I went in not expecting what it was. I actually thought it was going to be more like a discussion about Starcraft because I heard other people call it an episode of SotG but it turned out to be more like a behind-the-scenes, which is totally awesome for me, but maybe not others. I've never watched any of the other Lo3s or SotG so I can't comment on how this compared to those.
Honestly, I can't understand the people kicking off about the language used. Are these the same people that open a copy of Playboy and complain because they saw a nipple? Really, if gritty language offends you then stick to the 'mainstream' streams. If you guys bothered to check the Live on 3 listing in itunes it is listed as 'explicit'.
I had no idea so many Daily Mail readers were gamers as well :o
Wheat you are such a baller, I actually just watched a gaming documentary that was shot years ago yesterday and you were in it. keep on doing what you do man.
I personally loved the show, it was great being able to see everyone relaxing and get to know our favorite players more personality wise. Really gave the atmosphere of being there, all the deeper stuff is what keeps you hooked in watching starcraft for years and years.
On November 11 2010 10:45 Golden Ghost wrote: I unfortunately didn't catch your show so I can't comment on that but I loved your work (what I catched of it) during the beta. However as you / JP / Day are more and more the faces of SC2 it's important to differentiate yourself as an official caster on side A and an just for fun after party as side B. Not saying you shouldn't do the after parties but please state clearly at the beginning (as I said I didn't see it so I don't know if you did or not) that the after party is not a part of the official coverage of the MLG and that as more and more players join the party things may become less streamlined.
I think the fact that it was streamed on a stream called "Cat in a Box" should have been a clue it was not MLG.
I don't have a clue from where people got that "it's an official MLG cast" feel. I kinda just waked up in a good time and started to watch it before actually knowing what it really is and not for a second I thought this is some MLG aftershow :>
It was a awesome show btw I like these relaxed and for lack of better word, real shows. It was very nice to see the players in a real enviroment.
Yeah wheat don't listen to the haters the show was awesome and you guys are total ballers. I also liked your views on professionalism and that people need to take life with a grain of salt. Keep up the good work.
DJWheat, while professionalism doesn't seem to be a major concern, could you at least try be mature in your writing? Using the word 'fuck' should be limited to adolescents and porn stars.
I am a huge fan of DJWheat and the Lo3/WoC/Epileptic Gaming crowd/group (slasher/scoots/ed/chill etc..), so take that for what it is before i support the cast after MLG Dallas. In other words, ya i'm a fan boy.
What i loved about the show was simply that it showed us all that professional gamers, more so SC2 gamers, are just like everyone else. They eat, drink and have fun with friends just like all of us, this was important to me because it showed that they aren't all robots (idra) that are on some unattainable ground in SC2. It's something we can aspire to and achieve over time if we put the effort into it.
Aside from the more serious side of what i loved about the show, i also couldn't help but respect the fact that these guys took the time to setup this stream for us, 2-3k viewers live, to watch while in the room. They went through all sorts of different things, like wheats ustream not working, just to show us the inner workings of the sc2 professional community (the lighter side).
I think people should remember that all of you guys are friends, that don't see each other all that often (once a year?), trying to relax after a stressful tournament weekend. It would be much more productive for everyone to take that show as an awesome show of character and personality of SC2 Pro-Gamers/Casters and that it will help promote the growth of the eSports (SC2 more specifically).
The only thing i ask is that next time try to set up the chat op's before you swap over channels, it was a task to get us some moderators in there to calm down the spam
MLG is at a pretty bad time Australian wise, but I woke up and saw the green bar at the top of teamliquid and thought eh I'll give it a go.
WOW
Besides epic games themselves, that was easily the best 3 hours of progaming related material I've ever watched. And you know why? It's because it was lighter and not post-produced. It was a gritty, behind the scenes look at SC2 progaming. Not only did I get to put names to faces for some people I hadn't seen before like Machine, but I got it in a candid, real environment.
When I first saw Wheat doing some stuff with Day9 I think it was, I rolled my eyes and went sigh here's another guy trying to impose himself on the scene without knowing anything, but he's really dedicated himself to learning the game, and you can see that a lot in how much he's improved.
I watched that show live. And I enjoyed it quite a bit.
The first thing that came to mind when I was watching it was not how unprofessional this was, but instead was how raw and awesome it was. I felt like I was there.
You busted your ass for three days straight and you were probably dead tired but you still provided us with an amazing behind the scenes look of all the players and people who made it happen. MLG was awesome and the after show in question was the icing on the cake.
Probably one of the best live shows ever. Wheat you and LO3 were awesome, as was Day and the other guys there as well. Ignore those negative people and just know that those are only the VERY small minority of your viewers. The rest are diehard fans like myself.
Hey guys, thought I'd chime in with some thoughts here. I had no idea Marcus (Wheat) was going to post this, or that there was this amount of backlash to begin with to prompt him to do so. Much of the Dallas show coming together was done by me, pushing wheat to do a special show since we (myself, wheat and scoots) haven't been able to do a Lo3 with all of us in nearly 2 months because of all the events we have worked or attended (WCG USA, WCG Finals, MLG Raleigh, MLG DC, MLG Dallas, IEM NYC, BlizzCon, EG Masters Cup). This also includes setting up the room with Noah, and getting all of the players there, so those with complaints of unprofessionalism can send them towards me.
Pretty much everything Marcus said is spot on. When it comes to major events, leagues and organizations with large sponsors and production, professionalism comes no questions asked. Marcus has commentated/produced, Scoots has produced/managed, and I have written/commentated/marketed more events in a professional manner than anyone could count. We have worked hard to produce exclusive/breaking news, ball-breaking interviews, undercover expose's, and spotlight content across every genre and game within the eSports/pro gaming scene. I can confidently say that within the show's year-plus existence, there has been no editorial, podcast/audio or video that has been able to match our diversified in-depth coverage. I will personally make sure to continue the standards we have set for ourselves within this space.
It just so happened that the place we wanted to do our show was also going to be used for everyone to mingle after a long weekend. The interviews and discussion we had with our guests (Lazarus, Day9, Jinro, Machine, IdrA, PainUser, iNcontroL/iNkA, NonY/ret, TLO/HuK) actually led to some very compelling information:
Lazarus as a new team-manager and sponsor in eSports, Day9's thoughts on casting with wheat, iNcontroL going to Korea to compete in GSL S3, Jinro's assumption of rigged GSL brackets, IdrA's thoughts on his early exit, PainUser's coming out of nowhere, Machine's break-out performance, and the entire Liquid team's confidence in their results for the weekend, and moving forward towards GSL S3, DreamHack, and next year. Each of these topics alone is worth way more of a discussion than surrounding circumstances.
I hope most people enjoyed the show. I wouldn't hesitate one bit to do this again for every MLG event next season if we have the time.
Live On Three will return to it's regularly scheduled air-time this Sunday at 4 PM EST. Discussion will include a recap of the GSL S2 finals between FoxeR and Nestea, a preview of Dreamhack Winter (NonY, TLO, IdrA, White-Ra, MorroW, among others), and a recap of the World eSports Masters (CS 1.6, WC3). Tentative special guests include Ryan "Filipino Champ" Ramirez who won SoCal Regionals (SSF4) this past weekend by taking out Daigo in the finals, and Tom "Ogre2" Ryan who won the MLG 2010 Halo 3 championship with Final Boss. Filipino Champ is the first ever American to win an international tournament in SF4 or SSF4 (not including ESWC 2010 which had no Japanese players), while Ogre2 has now won more titles that any other Halo player in history, while being on the only team to win every final event in each Halo series at MLG.
On November 11 2010 06:25 Zelniq wrote: i'm pretty pissed I was stupid enough to schedule my flight back home on Sunday night, just so I wouldn't miss a worthless day of classes. looks like I missed out on the best of the MLG nights, next time I won't make that mistake
also, fuck ya wheat I agree 100%
Ya, I did the same thing and completely agree with you as well.
The vast majority of the content produced by and for the SC2 community is PG, and can be readily consumed by individuals of all ages. The fact that very tiny portion of our content, streamed at very late hours, has some saltiness is perfectly reasonable. If you find this content objectionable you still have access to the other 99% of content that will meet your standards. Let us 1 percenters have our fun - we're part of the community too!
Wheat you rock, it's exactly the up close personal look at progaming on LO3, Weapon of Choice etc that really makes me enjoy and engage in the starcraft community and has interested me in Quake, Ultimate Gamer and a host of other topics you've mentioned or I've heard as a direct result of following your casts. Keep up the good work and the haters don't have to watch.
Good explanation/defense wheat, you make the case well and I get what you are saying. I'd agree (if this is indeed what you were saying at some point) that it's really a matter of context. This was clearly a live post-event party, anyone watching it could pretty much expect what was to come in terms of profanity or off-color humor or anything else, given the alcohol the energy and the sleep deprivation. Meantime, the actual Content content was very interesting and really worthwhile.
As a person who is involved with a number of younger SC2 players and fans, I tend to get a bit tetchy when there is a lot of swearing or tounge-in-cheek/mock racism or homophobia in SC2 content - but really, by now most people know which shows/streams/podcasts are for what kind of content/ambiance/whatever.
So yeah, of course everyone is entitled to their own personal opinions on what is "just a joke" and "what is going too far" in terms of humor and so on and that's all fine and as it should be. But I don't think there is any reason to complain at you for putting "to air" what you did, and you aren't personally responsible for every crass joke that was made.
Again, I think provided everyone is good and clear what they are getting (ie. this was not a "professional context" it was a "behind the scenes context"), I don't really see the problem.
More generally, you do a great job and the SC2 community is lucky to have a few people with some actual experience in media doing things for us. Enthusiasm is fantastic but having a few people with actual knowledge and background is a huge benefit to everyone. So thanks for all the hard work.
Some of the most successful companies in the United States are embracing a more laid back corporate culture. Evidence of this is just about any company that is tech related mostly on the West Coast. Take Blizzard for instance and one of their cultural norms "embrace your inner geek." The antiquated idea of "professionalism" (ex. IBM years ago where everyone wore navy blue suits, starched shirts, pressed pants and parted hair) is being abandoned by top companies in favor of casual, fun and employee focused work environments. The reason: it makes people happier, more comfortable, and it works better.
Society in general, not just esports, is shifting to a more laid-back attitue where people are less easily offended, and where people say what they mean and where a bit of "edge" and "rawness" is tolerated (and sometimes expected even).
I'll argue to say that being what many perceive as "professional" would lead to a contrived, less informative and less entertaining esports commentating experience. Also, I think that the events like the post-event show that took place, or any "behind the scenes" moments that get cast live (ex. Day9 pre-show is a great example) help to bring the casters and pros a bit "down to earth" in the eyes of the mass viewers. This creates a more intimate viewing experience because we as the anonymous masses can identify with the pros who otherwise we would perceive as these untouchable deities. This sort of thing happens with pro athletes or movie stars.
The ultimate point I'm trying to make here is that being "professional" is losing its popularity and its effectiveness. People in general relish in the fact that they can see their favorite progamers in a human form. Personally it makes me feel great that if I saw one of the pros at some random event I would be able to have an actual conversation with them rather than a star-struck 2 second autograph session where I tell them how great they are and have them sign my mousepad.
So keep doing what you're doing. Use profanity, be hilarious, wear a suit with a tshirt (one of my favorite attributes of the GSL casts), push the envelope, and be human.
Your post is the reason I like the esports culture as well as this whole new cultural movement, because it portrays people as people, and we want to have fun, and just because you're a "professional" doesn't mean you have to be on your "best behavior."
So before people rage at nerds misbehaving, just know that society in general is embracing it, and it's not going to stop, which I quite frankly think is awesome...
On November 11 2010 13:44 heyoka wrote:People in Starcraft take themselves way too seriously.
I understand what you are saying, but I think as SC2 gets bigger and bigger it is worthwhile having these sorts of conversations. Although I'm basically behind wheat in this case, I definitely think it's a good thing for the community to be able to air all their various opinions and give solid reasons for them and people like wheat to be able to read them and get a feel for where everyone is coming from. Thousand roses bloom or whatever that quote is. All good.
I didn't watch it and I honestly don't care what the material was. It's FREE content, FREE entertainment and FREE access to an event you wouldn't have heard about other than in someone's blog. Regardless of the content, people should be thankful for the content, specially that it was honest view of what the after party was and how it actually went.
DJ Wheat you're awesome... casting at MLG was great all weekend. I only caught 15 minutes of the Lo3 before realising it wasn't really my thing, but I don't see why any spectators would have a problem with that kind of thing, you don't like it just turn it off - complaining is just stupid.
Only thing I would say is that the players privacy should be respected, like Day9 was saying on the podcast about having cameras shoved in his face when he was trying to eat and then people accusing him of being drunk etc... that's not cool. Players should always be given the option whether they want to participate or not.
The OP mirrors my sentiments akin to the Zenio v IdrA / Rainbow v Genius "ceremony" discussions. So many idiots kicked up a storm about how these players "make the game look unprofessional" and how they should be straight arrows with no personalities. What do these people want? A monotonous discovery channel documentary?
djWHEAT you are one of my favorite casters @ tournaments to be honest, just because you emit fun and tranquility. I don't want to name my problems with the other casters here, but i really fucking LOVE how you position yourself in midst of games. Also your snappy humor is second to NONE.
I/We am/are honored to have you in the community. Cheers.
djWHEAT, you just proved yourself to me. Not that anyone cares what I have to say, but I've been involved (sometimes loosely, I'm a very active student) with BW and SC2 for some years. In all that time there has been this tension in the community between appeal to middle America and nerds like us. Every so often someone makes a thread about how gamers and casters shouldn't swear or how Idra BM hurts the game. I am sympathetic to the cause of esports and want to see it go mainstream, however, I completely agree with you Wheat. Jazz lived outside mainstream popular culture for many decades because Black musicians were forced to stick to their own community. But they focused on that community and developed the art form.
This is a loose metaphor indeed, but the point is that it is ok for esports to focus mainly on its own community. Mainly because the ESPNs, and NBCs of the world won't understand or care about esports. We need to wait 10-15 years for our generation to have influence over entertainment and for those following us who have grown up with esports who will love to watch the games. It's a little like early baseball.
Personally it's the viewer's decision. If they don't like the talk of blow jobs or conversations with porn stars -- Don't tune in! Like you said, there is plenty of other material on the internet and you can do as you please as it has clearly worked for you.
That being said, unfortunately I'm probably one of those guys who won't want to watch your shows based on the former. There isn't anything wrong with that, you just look to please a different crowd.
I think this post deserves a FUCK YEAH!!!!! but i don't just wanna post that and get a warning. it was an amazing post game show. Thank you for doing it wheat, it truly shows pro gamers also like to chill the fuck out. After a tough tournament like that i'd be more drunk than anybody there. Pro gamers are just like you and me.. although i heard Machine is a Cyborg
Alright so, I didn't notice the original thread regarding this whole issue, and have just finished reading it. To add to my previous respons:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
24 fucking pages over me making a blowjob joke regarding the people in the room chanting "JP" over and over? Which by the way, is completely unrelated to anything said about the female, Kate, who also by the way, is a good buddy and resident troll of World of Ming. All of this happening within a 2 minute span of the 3 hour cast, seriously? Really, seriously?
Glad I caught this blog, don't ever change, wheat.
As to the professionalism: I'd like to compare my favorite e-sport to my favorite sport, college football. College football is a billion dollar industry with hundreds of millions of fans, yet there's still a very casual atmosphere around it. Listen to any of the hundreds of radio shows about it and you'll catch all sorts of crude humor, overreaction, and just people screaming about everything. Yet you can turn on the live broadcast of a game and you'll get a couple old players in suit and tie calmy calling the game, occasionally cracking PG13 jokes, and being entirely "professional." Point is that sports don't need to be professional all the time to attract sponsors, they need to be professional during the main events when everyone is watching AND they need to let loose in the off time when only the hardcore community--which ultimately drives demand--is tuning in.
Wheat is the real thing. He earned my respect when he took on Angel and the CPL back when he was styles519. Clan Knightmare got banned around that time for making public and openly discussing a leaked e-mail by Angel.
I watched the show at Dallas and I'd just like to say that Wheat and Day9 did a great job casting. I didn't catch the Lo3 (haven't actually heard of it before this, but it's playing right now and I'm listening) and its great to see the people that the Sc2 community is known for being...people. I feel like professionalism is necessary when required, but something like the Lo3 show in question the casual mood is what makes/made it great. I'm glad it was shown that way.
As for language? Everyone is different, and unfortunately when you're on a public forum/place (internet), you're going to be exposed to things that might offend your/people's sensibilities. You're going to have to adjust to the general communities sense of what is proper and what isn't. Its life.
I really enjoyed the show, to hell with professionalism, I think it's awesome to see people enjoying themselves and I would love to see something like this after every MLG. It was more of a sneak peek at seeing these players cut loose and enjoy hanging out which is a nice change from the seriousness of the tournaments. Keep doing what you're doing Wheat, if these naysayers don't want to watch they aren't forced to.
On November 11 2010 15:37 Slasher wrote: 24 fucking pages over me making a blowjob joke regarding the people in the room chanting "JP" over and over? Which by the way, is completely unrelated to anything said about the female, Kate, who also by the way, is a good buddy and resident troll of World of Ming. All of this happening within a 2 minute span of the 3 hour cast, seriously? Really, seriously?
The original thread is about 3 people agreeing with the OP and 24 pages of idiots flaming the OP and getting banned for it. Which is the primary reason threads like this are kept open, they are excellent ban traps to weed out the stupid.
The OP made a reasonable point and stated his opinion manner fully. No problem with that whatsover. It was the horde of idiots that decided it's fair game to gang up on someone with an unpopular opinion that let the thread explode.
I really liked you replied so in-depth to that, but I honestly don't even think that the calls of "unprofessionalism" are a valid critique. The problem is that you have to judge the show by what it sets out to achieve. This isn't some very broadly broadcasted show for the greater internets, it's a casual inside look to the type of socialty that is going on between pro gamers after the actual event. And it's for people who would like to see this. I have to repeat this, this is not the big tournament stream targeted to get mom and pops and your gf watching sc2, it's just for the ultra nerds so they can share the pro gaming experience a little better. Besides, the more u professionalize a show like that, the more it will fail to bring us what it set out to show: a "real" look behind the scenes. Cameras change the social interaction purely by their presence, but think what a structured report would do. I only watched a fragment of this "show" but I was really happy to see it exists. DjWheat is boss !
2gd, former ESL QL and WoW caster, is the most unprofessional and rude guy in esports. Never really bothers at all being PC or PG13. But he is one of the most entertaining casters out there. Only cus he is gaming without the fluff, just like wheat and pals.
What any community really needs is strong personalities who help tie it together and who enable it to grow - be it players, casters, viewers. Professionalism is all fine and dandy when in the spotlight, but should a community adapt to an outside world who doesn't really care?
What is more exciting - LO3 crazyness, or the korean style '' i did my best, and i tried my hardest, and i will continue practicing. Thank you my team&parents''. Im sorry will take LO3 any day.
I'm kind of seeing a bit of a parallel between the way Mixed Martial Arts was viewed ten years or so ago and the sort of turnouts they're getting to their shows. It used to be a very underground sport without many rules in the ring, and without much support from governments or the general public, but the people who were running it and watching it knew they were onto something good, something unique. There was definentally a lot of teething problems, a lot of reform in the rules, and a lot of effort by the whole MMA community to get it to where it is today. I believe that there's no better show in sport today than a UFC event (apart from superbowl/grand finals). The whole event is electric, and every single person in the crowd is in on the action.
This is where e-sports could be in 5-10 years time, and that gets me seriously excited! Just this year we've had a big boost in publicity with a new starcraft coming out, and SC2 being included in the MLG circuit, and these things are extremely good for the sport. Yes SC2 doesn't have the high level play that Brood War has built up over the years, but things have had to change to bring e-sports into the mainstream, and that quite simply couldn't happen in Western countries without updated graphics/gameplay/developer support. I quite strongly agree that Blizzard shouldn't be interfereing with the BW events, because as time goes it would naturally fade as more progamers would switch up to SC2.
The most important thing any new and developing venture needs is strong leadership. I really hope that someone at MLG, Kespa, Gretech and Blizzard gets in contact with Dana White or someone involved in the running of the UFC and gets some business planning off them, because what they've done with MMA is awesome, and if e-sports could get that sort of leadership running it then it will get big. But also look at the UFC. It's not always "professional", some of the fighters say stupid things, sometimes they get bad publicity from different sectors of the government or media, but everytime something happens they look at it, and if it needs changing then thay change it, and quickly.
So some people have been upset by this broadcast, maybe it shouldn't be done the same way next time, who knows. It's up to the people running these events to make the right decisions, and to listen to what the fans want. Thankfully, judging by this blog entry it looks like they are.
I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
Maybe i'm just too old and don't understand your generation (though i'm propably younger than you, but since you don't want to grow up... well...), but i really don't like this immature attitude, no matter _where_ someone shows it. I don't respect TaKeSen for hiring a stripper to a tournament either (and thats me working in the adult industry maintaining a system storing and managing over 100 Terabyte Porn).
Well, i guess someone has to be the clown (or if you prefer, entertainer) for the lower classes so they never learn to rise above themselves and learn to be more than just... children.
Who do you rather be? The young marine on the battlefield who has an exciting, though quite short life, or the commander of the battleship in orbit?
Yes, this post might offend you and possibly a lot others, but well, have fun with your partying, spring breaks, comedy shows, college football,... come back to this post when you have finally grown up in about 30-40 years. Well, ok, if the world develops as i expect it will be in ruins by then, so i just hope everyone grows up before then... but i don't expect it.
Just a Note: To those who said the event was at night, children shouldn't watch it anyways... it's always afternoon somewhere on the world and some children might watch it (though i don't think it's the strongest argument against such a stream).
On November 11 2010 21:30 Morfildur wrote: I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
It is quite normal in Europe aswell, even Germany. I have partied with Germans plenty of time, and they just like everyone else in the world likes to drink, have a good time, make bad jokes and let loose once in a while.
If nothing else i would object to the implication that grown ups cant drink, have fun and act childish once in a while. That is just stupid, i am grown up, work, pay my bills, curse over the price of insurance and worry about kids or not. And i still enjoy grabbing some beers, hanging out with my friends and laugh at (possibly) bad jokes. As do my older brother, his friends, my friends, my dad, my granddad, my mom, my gf and every other non-stuck-up person i know.
Time and place for everything, a time to be proffesional and a time to relax and give some of youself.
I really don't get what etiquettes have to do with professionalism in the first place. To me professionalism is about taking your job seriously and doing it to the best of your abilities. Not about being PC.
Wheat casted at a noisy after-party and managed to get really good interviews and and very insightful discussions. His style for the show is using what a lot of people consider "every day English" as opposed to "PC English". He's a very good interviewer and talk show host, asks the right questions and knows how to steer the conversation. I'd say that his style fits his guests best because he doesn't force them to act unnatural. It fits his audience best because they finally get to see a show that isn't painfully out of sync with real life.
While I do think that relying on obscenity to be funny or to carry your argument only proves you're incapable of being funny or insightful. That doesn't automatically mean that everybody that swears or uses vulgar terms can't make a solid case for his opinion, or be funny for that matter. Failing to see the difference is what I'd call "an attempt of a stubborn mind denying the right of free expression". As for Slasher acting like an idiot at the end of the show, and his not so articulate reaction in this thread; those actually are effective demonstrations of "attempts of a weak mind to express itself forcibly". (Nothing against you Slasher, but you really didn't help yourself with that post.)
Even with that admission, people are still responsible for their own actions. If you watch, or let your children watch an unrated show that takes place in an informal environment you run the risk of exposure to profanities. Arguing that it's anybody's responsibility other than your own is downright ridiculous and puts you in a victim's mentality.
On November 11 2010 21:30 Morfildur wrote: I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
It is quite normal in Europe aswell, even Germany. I have partied with Germans plenty of time, and they just like everyone else in the world likes to drink, have a good time, make bad jokes and let loose once in a while.
If nothing else i would object to the implication that grown ups cant drink, have fun and act childish once in a while. That is just stupid, i am grown up, work, pay my bills, curse over the price of insurance and worry about kids or not. And i still enjoy grabbing some beers, hanging out with my friends and laugh at (possibly) bad jokes. As do my older brother, his friends, my friends, my dad, my granddad, my mom, my gf and every other non-stuck-up person i know.
Time and place for everything, a time to be proffesional and a time to relax and give some of youself.
I enjoy a drink sometimes, too (although i absolutely hate the smell of beer, it's just horrible... i live 100m away from the famous "Flensburger Brauerei" and there are some days i don't even dare to open the windows) and having fun is ok, though people tend to say my humour is very dry, but what i absolutely hate is people drinking more than just a little and forgetting the good manners. Or even people that have no/only limited good manners even when sober (of which djWheat seems to be one).
Ah well, i guess the people asking me if i have some "blue blood" in my veins might be right, i'm just born in the wrong century. Anyways, just do what you want and only think about yourselves, don't even try to improve the world and grow above what you are now. Continue to drink, fight and swear like the uncivilized homo "sapiens" (what a joke -.-) most people often seem to be. Flesh over Mind, just like it should be.
(Sorry for being very aggressive, i'm in a very bad mood today. I better stop posting)
If people want professionalism all the time they aren't going to be getting content all the time. Part of professionalism is none of the personal life behind it. In my personal life I have sex and if I can't talk about it in a professional setting so be it. But when people are getting free additional content which was never presented as professional content, they lose every inch of a right to bitch. They could also just stop watching, did I ever present that fucking arguement? And of all the professional activities in the world do you think Starcraft having pro players talk about it frankly with a host enjoying a beer is going to SCARE THEM AWAY? Holy fuck they might just think these people are alright and JUST LIKE THEM.
So if anyone knows someone that watched LO3 and had never seen a single match of Starcraft in their existence, AND also was offended - I have a pretty good inclinination that they were never going to get into it anyway. If you want an entirely superficial fanbase of people who think its serious all the time people aren't going to believe it and its not realistic. The commentators, the players and everyone involved needs to let it all hang out - regardless if the record button is on or off.
First time I saw Wheat it wasn't for SC so I wasn't interested, when I see it now I'm like "hotshit this is awesome" because it is. So hats off Wheat if you see haters let them hate I'll address them for you. I'll release the pitbull with aids and ask my brothers parole officer if I can borrow him for a bit while he pushes them into an on going grease fire.
On November 11 2010 21:30 Morfildur wrote: I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
It is quite normal in Europe aswell, even Germany. I have partied with Germans plenty of time, and they just like everyone else in the world likes to drink, have a good time, make bad jokes and let loose once in a while.
If nothing else i would object to the implication that grown ups cant drink, have fun and act childish once in a while. That is just stupid, i am grown up, work, pay my bills, curse over the price of insurance and worry about kids or not. And i still enjoy grabbing some beers, hanging out with my friends and laugh at (possibly) bad jokes. As do my older brother, his friends, my friends, my dad, my granddad, my mom, my gf and every other non-stuck-up person i know.
Time and place for everything, a time to be proffesional and a time to relax and give some of youself.
I enjoy a drink sometimes, too (although i absolutely hate the smell of beer, it's just horrible... i live 100m away from the famous "Flensburger Brauerei" and there are some days i don't even dare to open the windows) and having fun is ok, though people tend to say my humour is very dry, but what i absolutely hate is people drinking more than just a little and forgetting the good manners. Or even people that have no/only limited good manners even when sober (of which djWheat seems to be one).
Ah well, i guess the people asking me if i have some "blue blood" in my veins might be right, i'm just born in the wrong century. Anyways, just do what you want and only think about yourselves, don't even try to improve the world and grow above what you are now. Continue to drink, fight and swear like the uncivilized homo "sapiens" (what a joke -.-) most people often seem to be. Flesh over Mind, just like it should be.
(Sorry for being very aggressive, i'm in a very bad mood today. I better stop posting)
This is exactly the victim mentality I was talking about. If you don't like that kind of behavior just don't visit the places where people behave that way. I don't mind party behavior at all, but when I'm not in the mood for it you won't see me in a brawny pub. If LO3 is too uncivilized for you, don't watch it!
That homo joke only proves you're not a hair better than the people you criticize, and hypocritical at that.
As for being born in the wrong century, you are fooling yourself if you think the 19th century was any better. People back then were unlettered bigots that couldn't finish a sentence without using profanities. The main difference is that now we have tv and the internet and it's not just the local pub or market-square where their voices are heard. If anything people have become more civilized and liberated at the same time. No longer is your opinion only measured by the eloquence with which you express it, but also the rationale behind it. (Obviously the rationale behind an opinion often depends on eloquence to be heard, but that's splitting hairs.)
On November 11 2010 21:30 Morfildur wrote: I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
It is quite normal in Europe aswell, even Germany. I have partied with Germans plenty of time, and they just like everyone else in the world likes to drink, have a good time, make bad jokes and let loose once in a while.
If nothing else i would object to the implication that grown ups cant drink, have fun and act childish once in a while. That is just stupid, i am grown up, work, pay my bills, curse over the price of insurance and worry about kids or not. And i still enjoy grabbing some beers, hanging out with my friends and laugh at (possibly) bad jokes. As do my older brother, his friends, my friends, my dad, my granddad, my mom, my gf and every other non-stuck-up person i know.
Time and place for everything, a time to be proffesional and a time to relax and give some of youself.
I enjoy a drink sometimes, too (although i absolutely hate the smell of beer, it's just horrible... i live 100m away from the famous "Flensburger Brauerei" and there are some days i don't even dare to open the windows) and having fun is ok, though people tend to say my humour is very dry, but what i absolutely hate is people drinking more than just a little and forgetting the good manners. Or even people that have no/only limited good manners even when sober (of which djWheat seems to be one).
Ah well, i guess the people asking me if i have some "blue blood" in my veins might be right, i'm just born in the wrong century. Anyways, just do what you want and only think about yourselves, don't even try to improve the world and grow above what you are now. Continue to drink, fight and swear like the uncivilized homo "sapiens" (what a joke -.-) most people often seem to be. Flesh over Mind, just like it should be.
(Sorry for being very aggressive, i'm in a very bad mood today. I better stop posting)
That homo joke only proves you're not a hair better than the people you criticize, and hypocritical at that.
The Joke was actually the "sapiens", as i don't consider most people to be "wise" at all, but well, i guess i just stick to simpler jokes so people don't actually have to think (after all, thinking might hurt).
Btw, the last century was the 20th, not the 19th... and there were a lot of centuries before that, some of them - very long ago - could even be counted as civilized.
Well, i will stop posting in this thread and make place for all the others that just want to repeat the OP like those on the previous 9 pages. Nay-sayers don't seem to be welcome.
The most disturbing part about all of this is that people find watching a bunch of nerds getting drunk interesting. Seems to me like people enjoy it because it gives them a chance to live vicariously through your show, which more or less was the ultimate fantasy for a lot of gamers/nerds. To each his own I suppose.
Dismissing the OP's letter as a bunch of crap doesn't seem like the correct approach to me. He made a calm, collective argument and whether you agreed with it or not, it wasn't something you can shoot down claiming it was wrong. You're so worried about the community and audience, but you seem to be neglecting the fact that he was part of that audience as well. The 24 pages of flame buried the fact that he actually liked 98% of your show.
Some people are saying, "well don't tune in if you don't like it." Unfortunately, the majority of us are not mind-readers and cannot predict everything that will happen next. The idea was excellent - providing a glimpse into a post-tournament setting for "professional" players. You can hardly blame anyone for tuning in, but at that point, perhaps you should consider your audience isn't composed entirely of mindless idiots.
Il like your casting and the work you've done, but this is unbelievably close-minded.
On November 11 2010 21:30 Morfildur wrote: I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
It is quite normal in Europe aswell, even Germany. I have partied with Germans plenty of time, and they just like everyone else in the world likes to drink, have a good time, make bad jokes and let loose once in a while.
If nothing else i would object to the implication that grown ups cant drink, have fun and act childish once in a while. That is just stupid, i am grown up, work, pay my bills, curse over the price of insurance and worry about kids or not. And i still enjoy grabbing some beers, hanging out with my friends and laugh at (possibly) bad jokes. As do my older brother, his friends, my friends, my dad, my granddad, my mom, my gf and every other non-stuck-up person i know.
Time and place for everything, a time to be proffesional and a time to relax and give some of youself.
I enjoy a drink sometimes, too (although i absolutely hate the smell of beer, it's just horrible... i live 100m away from the famous "Flensburger Brauerei" and there are some days i don't even dare to open the windows) and having fun is ok, though people tend to say my humour is very dry, but what i absolutely hate is people drinking more than just a little and forgetting the good manners. Or even people that have no/only limited good manners even when sober (of which djWheat seems to be one).
Ah well, i guess the people asking me if i have some "blue blood" in my veins might be right, i'm just born in the wrong century. Anyways, just do what you want and only think about yourselves, don't even try to improve the world and grow above what you are now. Continue to drink, fight and swear like the uncivilized homo "sapiens" (what a joke -.-) most people often seem to be. Flesh over Mind, just like it should be.
(Sorry for being very aggressive, i'm in a very bad mood today. I better stop posting)
That homo joke only proves you're not a hair better than the people you criticize, and hypocritical at that.
The Joke was actually the "sapiens", as i don't consider most people to be "wise" at all, but well, i guess i just stick to simpler jokes so people don't actually have to think (after all, thinking might hurt).
Btw, the last century was the 20th, not the 19th... and there were a lot of centuries before that, some of them - very long ago - could even be counted as civilized.
Well, i will stop posting in this thread and make place for all the others that just want to repeat the OP like those on the previous 9 pages. Nay-sayers don't seem to be welcome.
More or less, he was saying your joke was not only crude, it was horrible. It wasn't wise and I'd be amazed if you could make it "simpler" considering it was pretty much at the bottom of the barrel already.
I doubt DJWheat opened this thread expecting 20 pages of people screaming amen (though it's close). It's good to have discussions about things like this and hopefully he'll take into account that though it's a minority of the current viewership, if e-sports were to grow, this small minority opinion could grow into the majority one even. It's not so much a discussion about the show that already happened as opposed to how things could be presented differently in the future and I am disappointed he seems to have decided against any change whatsoever already.
On November 11 2010 22:27 Caek wrote: I really don't get what etiquettes have to do with professionalism in the first place. To me professionalism is about taking your job seriously and doing it to the best of your abilities. Not about being PC.
Wheat casted at a noisy after-party and managed to get really good interviews and and very insightful discussions. His style for the show is using what a lot of people consider "every day English" as opposed to "PC English". He's a very good interviewer and talk show host, asks the right questions and knows how to steer the conversation. I'd say that his style fits his guests best because he doesn't force them to act unnatural. It fits his audience best because they finally get to see a show that isn't painfully out of sync with real life.
While I do think that relying on obscenity to be funny or to carry your argument only proves you're incapable of being funny or insightful. That doesn't automatically mean that everybody that swears or uses vulgar terms can't make a solid case for his opinion, or be funny for that matter. Failing to see the difference is what I'd call "an attempt of a stubborn mind denying the right of free expression". As for Slasher acting like an idiot at the end of the show, and his not so articulate reaction in this thread; those actually are effective demonstrations of "attempts of a weak mind to express itself forcibly". (Nothing against you Slasher, but you really didn't help yourself with that post.)
Even with that admission, people are still responsible for their own actions. If you watch, or let your children watch an unrated show that takes place in an informal environment you run the risk of exposure to profanities. Arguing that it's anybody's responsibility other than your own is downright ridiculous and puts you in a victim's mentality.
That homo joke only proves you're not a hair better than the people you criticize, and hypocritical at that.
The Joke was actually the "sapiens", as i don't consider most people to be "wise" at all, but well, i guess i just stick to simpler jokes so people don't actually have to think (after all, thinking might hurt).
Btw, the last century was the 20th, not the 19th... and there were a lot of centuries before that, some of them - very long ago - could even be counted as civilized.
Oh I got the joke alright, I just think it's rather insulting. Even if you don't agree with someone's lifestyle it's poor taste to deem them unfit to be called human. And I can count, thank you very much. I'm a child of the 20th century, and the openness of the 21st century is a continuation of a trend started in the 20th, that's why I took the 19th century as an example. There were indeed a lot of centuries that could be called civilized, but you're romanticizing them, the people lived in squalor and only a lucky few got to enjoy the benefits of "civilization".
Well, i will stop posting in this thread and make place for all the others that just want to repeat the OP like those on the previous 9 pages. Nay-sayers don't seem to be welcome.
Again with the victim mentality, the reason you attract such a negative reaction is because of the inflammatory nature of your posts. For someone who advocates civility you've shown preciously little.
Wheat, I'm incredibly disappointed, I think you need to offend many, many, many more people. Can you have an entire Lo3 dedicated to talking in the most derogatory fashion about every one of the world religions? I actually think coming from you it would be awesome. To be "fair" though, make sure you hate on all of them, and hit atheist, agnostics, deists, and people who don't think Sarah Palin is an idiot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions
So reliefed by reading this, djWHEAT. After reading the thread with the guy giving LO3 a lot of grief because of a few minutes out of a 3 hour long show, I was worried I would never have the oportunity to watch shows like this again.
Which would really make me such a sad panda. Absolutely loved it. There are no words to describe how amazing it is to be able to watch you casters and progamers in a relaxed setting like this. The jokes, the laughter, everything was just fabulous. Parts of it I have probably re-watched 10ish times allready.
Personally I have watched way more vods, replays, streams and interviews than I have played the game. Back in 2002ish it was very hard to find VOD's with anything else than Korean commentators. But even without understanding the language, watching games played by the heroes was awesome.
Compared to how it was back then, how amazing isn't the scene we see today. We are spoiled with live casts all the time. We got the greatest casters working their asses off to provide us with entertainment. Top level players who find time in their busy training and traveling schedual to give us fans what we want, interviews, appearances on shows like SotG, Dailys etc etc. We are so, so spoiled, and yet we keep complainig. It's a pity.
Thank you djWHEAT, day[9] & co for giving us fans an oportunity to watch the MLG Dallas afterparty. Thank you even more for keeping up the good work, planning more shows like this, even though some people give you grief. Last but not least, thank you progamers for taking the time to let us see you in other settings than when you play. Highly appreciated.
As a big supporter of eSport, I really admire all the work you all put into this, both casters and players.
On November 11 2010 23:34 Klamity wrote: Some people are saying, "well don't tune in if you don't like it." Unfortunately, the majority of us are not mind-readers and cannot predict everything that will happen next. The idea was excellent - providing a glimpse into a post-tournament setting for "professional" players. You can hardly blame anyone for tuning in, but at that point, perhaps you should consider your audience isn't composed entirely of mindless idiots.
Let me get this straight - you were surprised and unable to predict the use of off-color language at an impromptu cast at a late-night after-party celebrating the close-out of a stressful and epic 3-day event in a hotel room filled with alcohol, pizza, and twenty-somethings?
Had written a wall of text here, but then i realised that it was a lost cause and i saw no point in turning this thread awsell into a flame-war.
I will just say that when you are watching something filmed in a casual setting do not expect everyone to be politically correct. If you are anal about everyone being PC, avoid casual streams/shows.
For the best thing about casual shows are that people are not PC, many weivers enjoy seing that side of people and think it creates much more interesting TV (or VOD or whatever).
That is it really, casual setting are generally not PC, be it TV, streams, whatever. And that is the whole god damn point, dont like it stay clear.
As I said, no offense. The way you came across was a bit retarded, and I knew I probably wasn't getting the whole picture. I actually reread both posts and yes, you obviously are not a retard.
If anything, I am a retard for skimming a post and then referencing it in my own.
Using the term "retarded" is a bit extreme/immature in terms of vocabulary if you're trying to tell someone ELSE that their points aren't well made. Probably are better terms you could have used to properly convey your statement Caek.
On November 12 2010 00:18 ZlaSHeR wrote: Using the term "retarded" is a bit extreme/immature in terms of vocabulary if you're trying to tell someone ELSE that their points aren't well made. Probably are better terms you could have used to properly convey your statement Caek.
Yes you're right, that's why my other posts were a bit more thoughtful. and it's why I edited my previous post.
I had similar experiences with the lines of professionalism in my job as an RA the last few years. The department expected us to live on a floor with over 50 college freshman and be a walking billboard for professionalism and policy enforcement.
The very first night I took out a PVC "stripper pole" and attempted to swing around on it in the hallway. So much for "professionalism", huh? I straddled the line too and in the end had an awesome year, an awesome floor, and had one of the top three retention rates out of 130 RAs.
What you're doing is building a community. You have to bend the rules of social etiquette to get any of that accomplished. As a spectator I don't want to listen to some stiff in a suit, I want to listen to someone I can relate to, someone a little more real. Take Day9 for instance. His cast of the Combat-Ex vs. Chill showmatch was vulgar, dropped profanities every 30 seconds, and is definitely NOT what you want to send to a major company as an audition piece. I'm sure your shows with porn star guests are probably out of that picture too! The point is you won our respect by being real to us so we're going to listen and support you in events like MLG that are a little more on the professional side.
On November 11 2010 23:34 Klamity wrote: Some people are saying, "well don't tune in if you don't like it." Unfortunately, the majority of us are not mind-readers and cannot predict everything that will happen next. The idea was excellent - providing a glimpse into a post-tournament setting for "professional" players. You can hardly blame anyone for tuning in, but at that point, perhaps you should consider your audience isn't composed entirely of mindless idiots.
Let me get this straight - you were surprised and unable to predict the use of off-color language at an impromptu cast at a late-night after-party celebrating the close-out of a stressful and epic 3-day event in a hotel room filled with alcohol, pizza, and twenty-somethings?
Makes you wonder when the stream should go off. Before the cast began, I wasn't aware of the contents. I was expecting a party where they discussed what had just happened, not the crude jokes.
I didn't have an issue with language and personally I'm not horribly offended. I'm just defending the people who were offended, because I can see why they were.
Hater's gona hate, wheat... I loved the show. I laughed so fucking much while listening to it in the computer lab at my school that I actually had people looking at me weird. Keep it up!
On November 11 2010 23:34 Klamity wrote: Some people are saying, "well don't tune in if you don't like it." Unfortunately, the majority of us are not mind-readers and cannot predict everything that will happen next. The idea was excellent - providing a glimpse into a post-tournament setting for "professional" players. You can hardly blame anyone for tuning in, but at that point, perhaps you should consider your audience isn't composed entirely of mindless idiots.
Let me get this straight - you were surprised and unable to predict the use of off-color language at an impromptu cast at a late-night after-party celebrating the close-out of a stressful and epic 3-day event in a hotel room filled with alcohol, pizza, and twenty-somethings?
Makes you wonder when the stream should go off. Before the cast began, I wasn't aware of the contents. I was expecting a party where they discussed what had just happened, not the crude jokes.
I didn't have an issue with language and personally I'm not horribly offended. I'm just defending the people who were offended, because I can see why they were.
Yes, after a long weekend of meeting people that you get to see a few times a year in the biggest north american SC2 event after release, we all just like to sit in a room with alcohol, sip on it a little bit, drink, but never get drunk, and discuss the finer points in life.
Look, almost everyone there is in the 20-26 year old range, they just had a long successful event and wanted to wind down, the fact that they worked so hard to get us coverage of an after-party is pretty f'ing incredible on their part to allow us to experience that a bit. Believe it or not, when nerds gather, they like to have fun too.
I would just like to chime in on the Live on Three discussion that was a part of SotG.
First off, I am a huge djWheat fan. I have enjoyed his commentary and commitment since the days of TsN. He has always been 100% committed to bringing esports to the forefront of media. All of his shows have been really well put together and I am 100% thankful for his contributions to the scene. This naturally extends to Slasher and Scoots.
With that said, I was quite shocked at the location choice for Live on Three. I personally didnt mind the setting. Being a 26 year old male, I know that it is entirely necessary to cut loose and have a good time. I know that it is entirely possible to be a professional while still knocking back a few beers and hanging out with some friends. From a personal standpoint, I thought the Live on Three was great. I enjoyed it more than seeing him just sit behind his computer with Scoots and Slasher talking over skype.
However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
This isnt a "Shame on you" post, but I would really like to hear why the Live on Three cast decided to cast in that room at that time. Especially when starcraft 2 is growing at the rate that it is. We are really nearing the cusp of blowing up the US esports scene. I think we, as a community, really need to be on our best behavior.
I understand the fact that wheat is providing a free service, but it is a very popular free service. There are only a couple of personalities that stick out when I think of starcraft 2: Day9, Wheat, JP, Artosis, and Tasteless. Those are really the "faces" of SC2 right now. These are the faces that promote SC2 outside our community. Why negatively impact someones view on SC2, and esports in general, by the setting of a live show?
----
As an extention since I read this blog afterwards~
Wheat: Do you really think we are that far off from being under a microscope? Look at how fast SC2 is growing compared to any game. Already, it is putting games like CS(which was *the* e-sports game while in its prime), Halo, and Quake to shame.. and the game hasn't even been out for 6 months.
Korea already proved that RTS can be a great viewing platform. With the updated graphics and easier controls it is going to be a lot easier for foreigners (both players and media) to leech off the success in Korea. GSL is already offering a huge prize purse every month. Europe, especially germany, is nearing Korea status. I think it wont be that much longer until you see mainstream media outlets in the Americas to realize there is money to be made in e-sports.
Basically, I think we are a lot closer than you think we are, and I am a bit surprised that you don't see that SC2 is growing faster than any other e-sport in the US. I have been around the esports scene as long as you(as a fan and player.. not a content provider). In the ten years I have been following esports, I have never seen a game outgrow capacity in the same fashion SC2 has been doing at MLG.
On November 11 2010 23:34 Klamity wrote: The most disturbing part about all of this is that people find watching a bunch of nerds getting drunk interesting. Seems to me like people enjoy it because it gives them a chance to live vicariously through your show, which more or less was the ultimate fantasy for a lot of gamers/nerds. To each his own I suppose.
Dismissing the OP's letter as a bunch of crap doesn't seem like the correct approach to me. He made a calm, collective argument and whether you agreed with it or not, it wasn't something you can shoot down claiming it was wrong. You're so worried about the community and audience, but you seem to be neglecting the fact that he was part of that audience as well. The 24 pages of flame buried the fact that he actually liked 98% of your show.
Some people are saying, "well don't tune in if you don't like it." Unfortunately, the majority of us are not mind-readers and cannot predict everything that will happen next. The idea was excellent - providing a glimpse into a post-tournament setting for "professional" players. You can hardly blame anyone for tuning in, but at that point, perhaps you should consider your audience isn't composed entirely of mindless idiots.
Il like your casting and the work you've done, but this is unbelievably close-minded.
If you think the show was "a bunch of nerds getting drunk" then you A. didn't watch it, and B. are making a gross assumption about the entire content. That's far more closed minded than my own arguments. In fact, I didn't even bring up the OP of the closed thread. I simply stated my own feelings on the matter. I never said someone was WRONG, or what he said was WRONG.
I didn't attack a single person or poster, yet you're doing it to me. How am I being closed-minded but you are not?
On November 11 2010 21:30 Morfildur wrote: I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
Maybe i'm just too old and don't understand your generation (though i'm propably younger than you, but since you don't want to grow up... well...), but i really don't like this immature attitude, no matter _where_ someone shows it. I don't respect TaKeSen for hiring a stripper to a tournament either (and thats me working in the adult industry maintaining a system storing and managing over 100 Terabyte Porn).
Well, i guess someone has to be the clown (or if you prefer, entertainer) for the lower classes so they never learn to rise above themselves and learn to be more than just... children.
Who do you rather be? The young marine on the battlefield who has an exciting, though quite short life, or the commander of the battleship in orbit?
Yes, this post might offend you and possibly a lot others, but well, have fun with your partying, spring breaks, comedy shows, college football,... come back to this post when you have finally grown up in about 30-40 years. Well, ok, if the world develops as i expect it will be in ruins by then, so i just hope everyone grows up before then... but i don't expect it.
Just a Note: To those who said the event was at night, children shouldn't watch it anyways... it's always afternoon somewhere on the world and some children might watch it (though i don't think it's the strongest argument against such a stream).
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I'm 33, married, have a kid. You base your entire response off of 10 words that I said out of 1000... that is just laughable. You obviously didn't even watch the show and just assume that it was nothing but vulgar and worthless content thrown out for no reason at all. That is hardly the case.
I wish people would have at least WATCHED the program before making horribly incorrect statements about it.
I watched the show and I saw nothing vulgar, I must have missed it reading an email or something seriously. It's petty business. These moral crusaders are spewing lunacy in the face of a rational everyday person and show. :S DjWheat owes nothing and has given us great entertainment dudes.
On November 11 2010 22:39 Morfildur wrote: Or even people that have no/only limited good manners even when sober (of which djWheat seems to be one).
Seriously, where do you come up with this? I have no or limited good manners when I'm sober? Can you please direct me to the Unicorn Library where the Loch Ness Monster helped you find the information you based this statement on?
On November 11 2010 22:39 Morfildur wrote: Or even people that have no/only limited good manners even when sober (of which djWheat seems to be one).
Seriously, where do you come up with this? I have no or limited good manners when I'm sober? Can you please direct me to the Unicorn Library where the Loch Ness Monster helped you find the information you based this statement on?
Yeah I have talked a lot and met DJwheat in person. He is one of the coolest people out there and is one of the nicest guys to boot. He just likes to swear, SOOOO???
I can't believe Wheat's OP didn't pull an all kill.... This seems to be the trend on TL lately, bitch about every single thing at all the people that spend hundreds if not thousands of hours putting content out to the community.
People should be thanking Wheat for being involved in the community, he bring a lot of fans for other different genres and immediately puts a level of credibility to the SCII community that we would not have without him to the other communities.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
I'm honestly compelled to just repeat what I've said since everybody threw it out the window. I watched majority of the broadcast, in no way was it crossing any "border", I did miss the controversial part at the end but by that TIME most general vulgarity is acceptable in our mainstream culture. Hell even past 10pm you can talk all you want about almost anything on LOCAL RADIO, not just a random cast on the internet.
I don't understand the big deal here, it seems like somebody started trolling saying it was vulgar than everyone else hopped onto the wagon. If you were honestly offended, turn off the stream. Nobody is forcing anyone's hand in watching anything, the only thing going on here is a group of people ruining it for everyone else. How often do you see a behind the scenes cast, with insight from a ton of the players, and sponsors? Hint: usually happens in locker rooms after sports championships, it's normal. Shit gets rowdy for a reason. Wheat feels unappreciated, I agree.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
It isn't fair, nor does it make sense to compare sc2 to a sport which has years of foundation.
Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
I don't get why that should be separated from any other LO3 episode...it was Slasher Scoots and Wheat in front of a camera, having guests come on, talking about esports, specifically the major event tha tjust finished, as well as touching upon SCR, which was an epic epic event in itself.
They drank a couple bud lights in front of the camera, since when was that out of the norm on Wheats shows? Niceguyed was drinking irish whiskey in front of the camera like 4 weeks ago on epileptic gaming, nobody gave him shit for that.
I just don't know how to express this but, you're saying you're 26 years old and you're not offended, but you can understnad people who are...., but of cousre we all understand how they can be offended, some people get offended at the smallest fucking things (state of the game thread, gogo). That doesn't mean its reasonable nor should you support more angst against wheat and LO3 for doing something that was generally received as a positive show.
I modded something along the lines of 2500 people at 1 AM for that show, and the chat was blowing the fuck up laughing and having a good time watching the show, where were all the haters of the show then? Its pretty evident that they are NOT the majority here, yet the more you guys inflate it, the more you take away from the actual, silent majority.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
It isn't fair, nor does it make sense to compare sc2 to a sport which has years of foundation.
Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
Don't like thatp icture specifically? How about when a 20 year old on the team makes the playoffs and is allowed to celebrate int he locker room?
How about after the Canadian women's hockey team won the gold medal at the olympics, and the 17 year old player went in front of the camera with a fucking corona light, on international TV with hundreds of millions of not BILLIONS of people watching.
As far as I know, they didn't show anybody drinking underage on the stream, it was implied but they didn't show it, after all there was only one person in mind that was under 21.
But since when was it blasphemy for a 20 year old, college-age kid to drink. Unless you don't go to TL meetups or have never been to a party in your lifetime, which makes me think that all these people blowing up are either 16 years old and trying to start a shit storm, or something else similar...
Stop feeding the trolls. I would warn Siffer right here and now if I was an admin. Look at this tool trying to make an argument or put LO3 in a bad light with absolutely 0 evidence. Look I can do it too, it's easy. "But seriously, I heard a guy got punched to a critical state in the back which wasn't shown? Unacceptable really everyone on LO3 should be arrested for incompetence."
I was posting on the livestream chat the entire time, not one person wasn't enjoying themselves. Half the time we were spamming Scoots for requests which he did. It was awesome, we like to see our nerds getting a little ripped and having a good time.
@Siffer Oh, now you actually write something worthy instead of blindly attacking LO3. Solid choice of words.
@Siffer #2 - If I really wanted to have you warned, I wouldn't have mocked/attacked you in my post, rather I would be sincerely angry by your attacks on the LO3 broadcast which are unwarranted, and unproven in a serious tone. Perhaps a Mod would take my post a touch more seriously then, but if they did warn you it would be a good example, encouraging the people who are actually offended to post meaningful arguments instead of encouraging people to blindly attack the show, like you just did. That doesn't get us anywhere, it only serves to spam Wheat's thread which he obviously took time out of his day to address people.
On November 12 2010 03:09 ZlaSHeR wrote: I don't get why that should be separated from any other LO3 episode...it was Slasher Scoots and Wheat in front of a camera, having guests come on, talking about esports, specifically the major event tha tjust finished, as well as touching upon SCR, which was an epic epic event in itself.
They drank a couple bud lights in front of the camera, since when was that out of the norm on Wheats shows? Niceguyed was drinking irish whiskey in front of the camera like 4 weeks ago on epileptic gaming, nobody gave him shit for that.
I just don't know how to express this but, you're saying you're 26 years old and you're not offended, but you can understnad people who are...., but of cousre we all understand how they can be offended, some people get offended at the smallest fucking things (state of the game thread, gogo). That doesn't mean its reasonable nor should you support more angst against wheat and LO3 for doing something that was generally received as a positive show.
I modded something along the lines of 2500 people at 1 AM for that show, and the chat was blowing the fuck up laughing and having a good time watching the show, where were all the haters of the show then? Its pretty evident that they are NOT the majority here, yet the more you guys inflate it, the more you take away from the actual, silent majority.
Grow up
I am not defending the angsty spergs who are crying about the drinking and naughty words. I just think the venue and atmosphere was a poor choice when it comes to representing the community.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
It isn't fair, nor does it make sense to compare sc2 to a sport which has years of foundation.
Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
Don't like thatp icture specifically? How about when a 20 year old on the team makes the playoffs and is allowed to celebrate int he locker room?
How about after the Canadian women's hockey team won the gold medal at the olympics, and the 17 year old player went in front of the camera with a fucking corona light, on international TV with hundreds of millions of not BILLIONS of people watching.
As far as I know, they didn't show anybody drinking underage on the stream, it was implied but they didn't show it, after all there was only one person in mind that was under 21.
But since when was it blasphemy for a 20 year old, college-age kid to drink. Unless you don't go to TL meetups or have never been to a party in your lifetime, which makes me think that all these people blowing up are either 16 years old and trying to start a shit storm, or something else similar...
just a few clarifications there was a HUGE uproar about the canadian women's hockey team, and they did show underage drinking on the cam, but it was just briefly and not sustained at all
When was the goal to represent the community? Looked to me like the goal was to have a show since they haven't had a full one in weeks, following a big event so that they could get more interviews face to face with big name players then they've EVER had at ANY LO3 episode ever.
What in gods name are you arguing? No point you've made has been slightly legitimate yet.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
It isn't fair, nor does it make sense to compare sc2 to a sport which has years of foundation.
Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
Don't like thatp icture specifically? How about when a 20 year old on the team makes the playoffs and is allowed to celebrate int he locker room?
How about after the Canadian women's hockey team won the gold medal at the olympics, and the 17 year old player went in front of the camera with a fucking corona light, on international TV with hundreds of millions of not BILLIONS of people watching.
As far as I know, they didn't show anybody drinking underage on the stream, it was implied but they didn't show it, after all there was only one person in mind that was under 21.
But since when was it blasphemy for a 20 year old, college-age kid to drink. Unless you don't go to TL meetups or have never been to a party in your lifetime, which makes me think that all these people blowing up are either 16 years old and trying to start a shit storm, or something else similar...
just a few clarifications there was a HUGE uproar about the canadian women's hockey team, and they did show underage drinking on the cam, but it was just briefly and not sustained at all
HEYOOOO, MAZELTOV!
that news lasted all of 6 fucking hours til ESPN decided there was SHIT THAT WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN A TEENAGER HAVING A BEER CELEBRATING AFTER A BIG EVENT.
hmm, sound familiar?
Look man, I go to college, thousands of people on TL have or are or will.
Believe it or not *whispers* people drink before 21 *GASP*
On November 12 2010 02:44 djWHEAT wrote: I wish people would have at least WATCHED the program before making horribly incorrect statements about it.
Why the hell do people that didn't even watch the show to post in this thread? If you feel compelled to post here at least have the decency to go watch the show.
On November 12 2010 03:06 Siffer wrote: Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
Screencaps or it didn't happen. I watched live and saw no underage drinking and no beer pong (although beer pong was referenced in conversation - which is hardly offensive.)
Edit: Guess you're just a troll who didn't even watch the program.
On November 12 2010 03:14 Slardarxt wrote: Stop feeding the trolls. I would warn Siffer right here and now if I was an admin. Look at this tool trying to make an argument or put LO3 in a bad light with absolutely 0 evidence. Look I can do it too, it's easy. "But seriously, I heard a guy got punched to a critical state in the back which wasn't shown? Unacceptable really everyone on LO3 should be arrested for incompetence."
I was posting on the livestream chat the entire time, not one person wasn't enjoying themselves. Half the time we were spamming Scoots for requests which he did. It was awesome, we like to see our nerds getting a little ripped and having a good time.
@Siffer Oh, now you actually write something worthy instead of blindly attacking LO3. Solid choice of words.
Backseat modding is pretty cool, dood.
I am pretty sure I am being extremely objective in my arguments. I am not attacking any personalities and have praised wheat for his hardwork and dedication in the esports scene.
ALL I am saying is that I think when it comes to representing what starcraft is about, the venue and atmosphere was a poor choice.
They weren't representing starcraft, they were having a show in exactly the setting that happens when there are TL meetups, especially after big LANs.
Have you never been to a big LAN or event? Because it seems like you haven't, and if you haven't then how would you know what the representation of one should bel ike.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
It isn't fair, nor does it make sense to compare sc2 to a sport which has years of foundation.
Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
I'm not comparing the two games. I'm comparing the attitudes of the competitors with respect to how they are perceived and consumed by the public, which most certainly is fair and makes plenty of sense.
I'm a bit put off by your implication that LO3 was broadcasting underage drinking, which is absolutely not true.
On November 12 2010 03:06 Siffer wrote: Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
Screencaps or it didn't happen. I watched live and saw no underage drinking and no beer pong (although beer pong was referenced in conversation - which is hardly offensive.)
Edit: Guess you're just a troll who didn't even watch the program.
Venue and atmosphere i didn't agree with.
You are arguing with someone who went to a top party school in Michigan. I am not against underage drinking or beer pong, why is it so hard to get through your head?
To my knowledge, the person who supplied the rooom + alcohol was 20 years old. Do I have a personal vendetta against him because of this? No. Party on! As I said before, I *wish* I was at the party. Looked like a real good time.
ALL I am saying is that there could have better options for the actual location of the broadcast.
On November 12 2010 03:14 Slardarxt wrote: Stop feeding the trolls. I would warn Siffer right here and now if I was an admin. Look at this tool trying to make an argument or put LO3 in a bad light with absolutely 0 evidence. Look I can do it too, it's easy. "But seriously, I heard a guy got punched to a critical state in the back which wasn't shown? Unacceptable really everyone on LO3 should be arrested for incompetence."
I was posting on the livestream chat the entire time, not one person wasn't enjoying themselves. Half the time we were spamming Scoots for requests which he did. It was awesome, we like to see our nerds getting a little ripped and having a good time.
@Siffer Oh, now you actually write something worthy instead of blindly attacking LO3. Solid choice of words.
Backseat modding is pretty cool, dood.
I am pretty sure I am being extremely objective in my arguments. I am not attacking any personalities and have praised wheat for his hardwork and dedication in the esports scene.
ALL I am saying is that I think when it comes to representing what starcraft is about, the venue and atmosphere was a poor choice.
Starcraft is "about" many things to many people, and to suggest that every live broadcast needs to be wholly representative of all those things is ridiculous. For some people, Starcraft is just about the community experience and having fun (myself included) and this broadcast encapsulated that perfectly.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
It isn't fair, nor does it make sense to compare sc2 to a sport which has years of foundation.
Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
I'm not comparing the two games. I'm comparing the attitudes of the competitors with respect to how they are perceived and consumed by the public, which most certainly is fair and makes plenty of sense.
I'm a bit put off by your implication that LO3 was broadcasting underage drinking, which is absolutely not true.
I admit, there was no explicit underage drinking on camera. Maybe I overstepped there; however, given the demographic of the attendants, it isnt hard to come to the conclusion that there was underage drinking on the premise.
Again, I am not trying to hate on wheat, live on 3, or anyone on a personal level. ALL I am saying is that the venue and atmosphere doesn't do a good job of accurately representing of how the community and personalities typically carry themselves.
On November 12 2010 03:06 Siffer wrote: Also, where is the beerpong and underage drinking in that photo?
Screencaps or it didn't happen. I watched live and saw no underage drinking and no beer pong (although beer pong was referenced in conversation - which is hardly offensive.)
Edit: Guess you're just a troll who didn't even watch the program.
Venue and atmosphere i didn't agree with.
You are arguing with someone who went to a top party school in Michigan. I am not against underage drinking or beer pong, why is it so hard to get through your head?
To my knowledge, the person who supplied the rooom + alcohol was 20 years old. Do I have a personal vendetta against him because of this? No. Party on! As I said before, I *wish* I was at the party. Looked like a real good time.
ALL I am saying is that there could have better options for the actual location of the broadcast.
I don't ever recall Lazarus saying the beer was on him. I do recall him saying "enjoy the room" to everyone though, which does not imply that he bought or even paid for the alcohol.
Noah did say that the beer was on him, that doesn't mean necessairly that he drank any, we can assume he did but who gives a shit. Why does that take away from an amazing cast with amazing interviews?
Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
Bad example. I wouldn't want to watch three hours of this either. It would be like Girls Gone Wild without the girls.
I don't follow DJ Wheat's show regularly. I'm new to the scene, and follow SOTG, Day9 Daily and GSL religiously. That's already a lot of time out of the week.
I watched the show in it's entirely, mostly for the guests. I thought the guests came off really well.
In terms of the format ... I don't know if it made the best first impression Live on Three could have made on first-time viewers. It was a little to chaotic at points, and there were moments were I thought you, Slasher and Scoots would have benefited from being a bit more ... gracious.
For example, Rule Number 1 of a good party host/guest should be to not call another random guest a peice of shit so loudly that it kills the buzz of the party. It's better to pull that dude aside and say, "Listen, do you mind dude? We're in the middle of something."
I can pick on a bunch of other little things, but that's not the point. I understand and agree with your argument that videogames SHOULD straddle the line of "professionalism", and in this situation it wasn't warranted. I think the after-party format has potential. But there's room for improvement, even if it's just a matter of figuring out, "How lax is too lax?"
Basically, the format is designed to show players "as they really are", and if someone acts like a dick or a jackass, even inadvertently, well ...
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
Good thing SC2 is so open for outsiders. Atleast, it is in my opinion. Good post and let's hope elitism will not prevail on TL ("04 user > 09 user", etc.)
On November 12 2010 02:15 Siffer wrote: However, like I said, I am surprised that wheat decided to air an "official" Live on Three at a party. He, more than anyone else, should know that potential sponsors and interest groups will look at a community before dumping money into it. It isnt that *I* was appalled at the setting, I just know that if a company like ESPN looked at live on three as a source for community maturity and professionalism, that broadcast would reflect poorly not on the live on three cast, but the starcraft 2 community. If a potential investor saw the Lo3 MLG episode without having previous knowledge of wheat, scoots, and slasher, it would be a terrible first impression based on the environment alone.
I'm sure ESPN was absolutely appalled. Any company that would make investment decisions off of something like this would have to be run by complete clowns.
Bad example. I wouldn't want to watch three hours of this either. It would be like Girls Gone Wild without the girls.
Well, you've completely misinterpreted why I posted that picture. It was to refute the notion that ESPN would be automatically put off by a situation where competitors are relaxing, celebrating and consuming alcohol, not to suggest that it would be appropriate to have an entire show dedicated to gamers drinking and going crazy.
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Well to me, it wasn't a LO3 broadcast, but an opportunity for the LO3 guys to pick up regular viewers of other shows: MLG, State of the Game, etc. Just in terms of a business strategy to boost their audience, it just seemed like a bit of a missed opportunity, especially with access to amazing guests.
Maybe they should do a short, "real" LO3 for half-an-hour after MLG, than go into after party mode. Best of both worlds.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Because when I tune in on a normal Sunday, it isnt in an extremely loud environment with camera pans showing a bunch of people drinking and playing beer pong.
That is it. The venue and atmosphere just didn't fit a typical Lo3 setup and I just think it gives a poor representation of what wheat does on a weekly basis.
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Well to me, it wasn't a LO3 broadcast, but an opportunity for the LO3 guys to pick up regular viewers of other shows: MLG, State of the Game, etc. Just in terms of a business strategy to boost their audience, it just seemed like a bit of a missed opportunity, especially with access to amazing guests.
Maybe they should do a short, "real" LO3 for half-an-hour after MLG, than go into after party mode. Best of both worlds.
If you think that's what that was about then you don't know Wheat at all. I 100% guarantee the conversation that spawned that show went something like this:
Wheat: We should do a LO3 after MLG when everyone is hanging out and we can get like everyone on the show at once. How badass would that be? Slasher: Yea dude that'll be awesome! Scoots: We need pizza for this to work.. Wheat: Let's do it, it'll be a lot of fun!!!"
Note the bolded word there. I know these guys well enough to know they did it for the fun factor and nothing else. If they cared about ratings they would have just created another show on Ustream under Wheat's main channel regardless what when Wheat's stream was having issues, and would not have used Cat In a Box.....
Seriously this was on channel Cat In a Box, I know I keep coming back to this but there is no universe out there that you can join on and notice it's called Cat in a Box and go to yourself "oh, this must be the MLG off hours channel, makes sense."
Now if you were an animal lover that only turned on the channel full expecting a cat in a box you may very well have a legitimate bitch....
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Because when I tune in on a normal Sunday, it isnt in an extremely loud environment with camera pans showing a bunch of people drinking and playing beer pong.
That is it. The venue and atmosphere just didn't fit a typical Lo3 setup and I just think it gives a poor representation of what wheat does on a weekly basis.
When you tune into LO3 on Sunday's, you tune in at 11PM EST and right after the MLG Championships on channel Cat in a Box? The fact that is was at a time that did not even make sense for the show's name, after the championships, and on a channel that you 100% have never ever watched LO3 on EVER before that should have all been strong clues that this show may be slightly different then normal.
I think it only strengthens it. To me this is no different then having reporters in the locker rooms after sports games championships interviewing the players as they drink and party their asses off. It's just the E-Sports industry receives so little attention Wheat is one of the first guys to do this in SCII. The nice thing about E-Sports is instead of only showing the winners partying and the losers being all sad, you see EVERYONE hanging out having a good time. That spoke volumes to me right there to show where the overall level of respect in the SCII community is.
On November 11 2010 23:34 Klamity wrote: The most disturbing part about all of this is that people find watching a bunch of nerds getting drunk interesting. Seems to me like people enjoy it because it gives them a chance to live vicariously through your show, which more or less was the ultimate fantasy for a lot of gamers/nerds. To each his own I suppose.
Dismissing the OP's letter as a bunch of crap doesn't seem like the correct approach to me. He made a calm, collective argument and whether you agreed with it or not, it wasn't something you can shoot down claiming it was wrong. You're so worried about the community and audience, but you seem to be neglecting the fact that he was part of that audience as well. The 24 pages of flame buried the fact that he actually liked 98% of your show.
Some people are saying, "well don't tune in if you don't like it." Unfortunately, the majority of us are not mind-readers and cannot predict everything that will happen next. The idea was excellent - providing a glimpse into a post-tournament setting for "professional" players. You can hardly blame anyone for tuning in, but at that point, perhaps you should consider your audience isn't composed entirely of mindless idiots.
Il like your casting and the work you've done, but this is unbelievably close-minded.
If you think the show was "a bunch of nerds getting drunk" then you A. didn't watch it, and B. are making a gross assumption about the entire content. That's far more closed minded than my own arguments. In fact, I didn't even bring up the OP of the closed thread. I simply stated my own feelings on the matter. I never said someone was WRONG, or what he said was WRONG.
I didn't attack a single person or poster, yet you're doing it to me. How am I being closed-minded but you are not?
I apologize. It was more of the latter in that it was a gross over-generalization.
And perhaps the second part of your post comes down to a misunderstanding. It seems to me like you're more or less saying you don't care about criticism of the show and are going to continue doing whatever the hell you feel like doing.
Regardless, my main point is that you seem to neglect the fact that the people who the cast were also viewers. I'm disappointed that you don't seem to be taking their words or worries seriously. Criticism isn't meant to be insulting to you, it's meant to help.
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Well to me, it wasn't a LO3 broadcast, but an opportunity for the LO3 guys to pick up regular viewers of other shows: MLG, State of the Game, etc. Just in terms of a business strategy to boost their audience, it just seemed like a bit of a missed opportunity, especially with access to amazing guests.
Maybe they should do a short, "real" LO3 for half-an-hour after MLG, than go into after party mode. Best of both worlds.
If you think that's what that was about then you don't know Wheat at all. I 100% guarantee the conversation that spawned that show went something like this:
Wheat: We should do a LO3 after MLG when everyone is hanging out and we can get like everyone on the show at once. How badass would that be? Slasher: Yea dude that'll be awesome! Scoots: We need pizza for this to work.. Wheat: Let's do it, it'll be a lot of fun!!!"
Note the bolded word there. I know these guys well enough to know they did it for the fun factor and nothing else. If they cared about ratings they would have just created another show on Ustream under Wheat's main channel regardless what when Wheat's stream was having issues, and would not have used Cat In a Box.....
Seriously this was on channel Cat In a Box, I know I keep coming back to this but there is no universe out there that you can join on and notice it's called Cat in a Box and go to yourself "oh, this must be the MLG off hours channel, makes sense."
Now if you were an animal lover that only turned on the channel full expecting a cat in a box you may very well have a legitimate bitch....
What exactly am I bitching about? I'm making a suggestion. He can take it or leave it. You make it sound like I want to suck the fun out of his life.
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Well to me, it wasn't a LO3 broadcast, but an opportunity for the LO3 guys to pick up regular viewers of other shows: MLG, State of the Game, etc. Just in terms of a business strategy to boost their audience, it just seemed like a bit of a missed opportunity, especially with access to amazing guests.
Maybe they should do a short, "real" LO3 for half-an-hour after MLG, than go into after party mode. Best of both worlds.
If you think that's what that was about then you don't know Wheat at all. I 100% guarantee the conversation that spawned that show went something like this:
Wheat: We should do a LO3 after MLG when everyone is hanging out and we can get like everyone on the show at once. How badass would that be? Slasher: Yea dude that'll be awesome! Scoots: We need pizza for this to work.. Wheat: Let's do it, it'll be a lot of fun!!!"
Note the bolded word there. I know these guys well enough to know they did it for the fun factor and nothing else. If they cared about ratings they would have just created another show on Ustream under Wheat's main channel regardless what when Wheat's stream was having issues, and would not have used Cat In a Box.....
Seriously this was on channel Cat In a Box, I know I keep coming back to this but there is no universe out there that you can join on and notice it's called Cat in a Box and go to yourself "oh, this must be the MLG off hours channel, makes sense."
Now if you were an animal lover that only turned on the channel full expecting a cat in a box you may very well have a legitimate bitch....
What exactly am I bitching about? I'm making a suggestion. He can take it or leave it.
I am sorry I misread your previous post, I thought you were saying Wheat did it to try and get ratings, not that he missed out. To which I disagree, I have a feeling he gained A LOT more fans then he lost that night.
On November 12 2010 04:43 Klamity wrote: I apologize. It was more of the latter in that it was a gross over-generalization.
And perhaps the second part of your post comes down to a misunderstanding. It seems to me like you're more or less saying you don't care about criticism of the show and are going to continue doing whatever the hell you feel like doing.
Regardless, my main point is that you seem to neglect the fact that the people who the cast were also viewers. I'm disappointed that you don't seem to be taking their words or worries seriously. Criticism isn't meant to be insulting to you, it's meant to help.
I never once said I don't care about criticism of the show... if I really didn't care, I probably wouldn't have even bothered to post my thoughts on the situation. I take viewer criticism very seriously and while we don't try to cater to every single request, complaint, etc. I'd rather know and understand every view and angle from the audience/community.
Maybe the point I should have made is... this isn't much different that what I've been doing for the past 8 years with these shows. And that hasn't "prevented" me, the communities I'm involved in, or my co-hosts from having a successful career in video gaming.
My only complaint about the criticism is from those who didn't even watch the show, and so they just made assumptions about the content without actually seeing what it contained (or they took someone else's assumptions and ran with it...). Everyone who watched it all learned a great deal about the players/staff/personalities interviewed, yet some made it sound like we were bringing Ret on and asking him what his favorite sexual position was. That was simply NOT the case.
I completely stand by the content we created that night. If people didn't like the venue or felt the environment wasn't acceptable for that show, there's not much I CAN do about that.
But I certainly don't dismiss the intelligent criticism we get about the shows and the content we create... sometimes I just don't agree with it.
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Well to me, it wasn't a LO3 broadcast, but an opportunity for the LO3 guys to pick up regular viewers of other shows: MLG, State of the Game, etc. Just in terms of a business strategy to boost their audience, it just seemed like a bit of a missed opportunity, especially with access to amazing guests.
Maybe they should do a short, "real" LO3 for half-an-hour after MLG, than go into after party mode. Best of both worlds.
If you think that's what that was about then you don't know Wheat at all. I 100% guarantee the conversation that spawned that show went something like this:
Wheat: We should do a LO3 after MLG when everyone is hanging out and we can get like everyone on the show at once. How badass would that be? Slasher: Yea dude that'll be awesome! Scoots: We need pizza for this to work.. Wheat: Let's do it, it'll be a lot of fun!!!"
Note the bolded word there. I know these guys well enough to know they did it for the fun factor and nothing else. If they cared about ratings they would have just created another show on Ustream under Wheat's main channel regardless what when Wheat's stream was having issues, and would not have used Cat In a Box.....
Seriously this was on channel Cat In a Box, I know I keep coming back to this but there is no universe out there that you can join on and notice it's called Cat in a Box and go to yourself "oh, this must be the MLG off hours channel, makes sense."
Now if you were an animal lover that only turned on the channel full expecting a cat in a box you may very well have a legitimate bitch....
What exactly am I bitching about? I'm making a suggestion. He can take it or leave it.
I am sorry I misread your previous post, I thought you were saying Wheat did it to try and get ratings, not that he missed out. To which I disagree, I have a feeling he gained A LOT more fans then he lost that night.
Appreciated.
I credit the cast for making me a bigger fan of the PLAYERS, like Nony and PainUser. LO3 ... not so much.
To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Well to me, it wasn't a LO3 broadcast, but an opportunity for the LO3 guys to pick up regular viewers of other shows: MLG, State of the Game, etc. Just in terms of a business strategy to boost their audience, it just seemed like a bit of a missed opportunity, especially with access to amazing guests.
Maybe they should do a short, "real" LO3 for half-an-hour after MLG, than go into after party mode. Best of both worlds.
If you think that's what that was about then you don't know Wheat at all. I 100% guarantee the conversation that spawned that show went something like this:
Wheat: We should do a LO3 after MLG when everyone is hanging out and we can get like everyone on the show at once. How badass would that be? Slasher: Yea dude that'll be awesome! Scoots: We need pizza for this to work.. Wheat: Let's do it, it'll be a lot of fun!!!"
Note the bolded word there. I know these guys well enough to know they did it for the fun factor and nothing else. If they cared about ratings they would have just created another show on Ustream under Wheat's main channel regardless what when Wheat's stream was having issues, and would not have used Cat In a Box.....
Seriously this was on channel Cat In a Box, I know I keep coming back to this but there is no universe out there that you can join on and notice it's called Cat in a Box and go to yourself "oh, this must be the MLG off hours channel, makes sense."
Now if you were an animal lover that only turned on the channel full expecting a cat in a box you may very well have a legitimate bitch....
What exactly am I bitching about? I'm making a suggestion. He can take it or leave it.
I am sorry I misread your previous post, I thought you were saying Wheat did it to try and get ratings, not that he missed out. To which I disagree, I have a feeling he gained A LOT more fans then he lost that night.
Appreciated.
I credit the cast for making me a bigger fan of the PLAYERS, like Nony and PainUser. LO3 ... not so much.
To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
I think that's one of the major benefits. Many of these players are just screename's and a race without things like these. Before the IEM's and MLG's I knew most of these players only by their b.net avatars ....
I just wanted to make a quick point about the "venue".
Have you ever tried to herd cats? I'd imagine it would be really difficult. Let's pretend for a minute that StarCraft 2 players are a bit like cats. Difficult to herd. It's hard enough to schedule ONE player for an interview after the event let alone 10-12 players.
nLazerus offered to let us use his room as the place to record BECAUSE everyone was going to be there already, and from a production standpoint, that seemed to be the easiest way to actually accomplish what we wanted to accomplish... which was to pack as many guests into the show as humanly possible.
TRUST ME, if I could do it over again, I would definitely change a few things. For example, we were literally right in the middle of the "party". If I could do it over again, I would have moved the setup to a bit quieter of a location, but it would have still been within the party. Because the broadcast was there, with all the guests, it made it incredibly easy to bring them on and I wouldn't want to lose that ability.
When I look at the show from a production perspective there's no way that show could have been done WITHOUT being at that gathering of gamers. You can read that as an excuse all you want, but most people don't consider the production side of this show. It's not as easy as setting up some equipment and magically everything happening. In fact, it took us 2 hours just to get everything ready for the show... and that was after a grueling 12 hour day of Finals.
Regardless, I understand why some believe the venue wasn't the best. And that's fine. I get it. However, I don't agree that it reflected poorly on LO3. I think LO3 has proven in the past that our aim isn't to have the most amazing sets or production... our aim is to bring as much of esports as we can to the masses... and this presented a great opportunity to do just that. Where there is eSports, LO3 will follow. And if that happens to be in a hotel room with nearly every top gamer from the MLG Dallas tournament... then so be it.
tl;dr - I accept that some people didn't think the venue was a good choice, but at the end of the day, the show wouldn't have been possible without a post-event party in which all the top gamers were attending. Also if I could do it over again I wouldn't change the "venue" but I would try to find a quieter location within said venue for the show.
On November 12 2010 05:02 Defacer wrote: To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
Many people have this same first impression of Slasher. But in his defense, he is one of the most passionate people in eSports as far as I'm concerned.
There's not another person on this planet that knows as much as this guy knows about nearly every single community in gaming. Whether Quake, StarCraft, WoW, Counter-Strike, Street Fighter... he may come off as brash and rude, but his dedication is unmatched.
He doesn't pit communities against one another, he doesn't try to claim one community is better than another... he just wants to see eSports grow, and he has his own way of doing it. I think he gets a bit of hate from this particular community because he's not as intimate with the members as others are. But people should at least give him the benefit of the doubt, because he's done nothing but help promote the community to OTHER communities.
On November 12 2010 05:11 djWHEAT wrote: I just wanted to make a quick point about the "venue".
Have you ever tried to herd cats? I'd imagine it would be really difficult. Let's pretend for a minute that StarCraft 2 players are a bit like cats. Difficult to herd. It's hard enough to schedule ONE player for an interview after the event let alone 10-12 players.
nLazerus offered to let us use his room as the place to record BECAUSE everyone was going to be there already, and from a production standpoint, that seemed to be the easiest way to actually accomplish what we wanted to accomplish... which was to pack as many guests into the show as humanly possible.
TRUST ME, if I could do it over again, I would definitely change a few things. For example, we were literally right in the middle of the "party". If I could do it over again, I would have moved the setup to a bit quieter of a location, but it would have still been within the party. Because the broadcast was there, with all the guests, it made it incredibly easy to bring them on and I wouldn't want to lose that ability.
When I look at the show from a production perspective there's no way that show could have been done WITHOUT being at that gathering of gamers. You can read that as an excuse all you want, but most people don't consider the production side of this show. It's not as easy as setting up some equipment and magically everything happening. In fact, it took us 2 hours just to get everything ready for the show... and that was after a grueling 12 hour day of Finals.
Regardless, I understand why some believe the venue wasn't the best. And that's fine. I get it. However, I don't agree that it reflected poorly on LO3. I think LO3 has proven in the past that our aim isn't to have the most amazing sets or production... our aim is to bring as much of esports as we can to the masses... and this presented a great opportunity to do just that. Where there is eSports, LO3 will follow. And if that happens to be in a hotel room with nearly every top gamer from the MLG Dallas tournament... then so be it.
tl;dr - I accept that some people didn't think the venue was a good choice, but at the end of the day, the show wouldn't have been possible without a post-event party in which all the top gamers were attending. Also if I could do it over again I wouldn't change the "venue" but I would try to find a quieter location within said venue for the show.
Question for you sir: was the MLG LO3 indicative of regular LO3? If I enjoy Day 9 and SOTG, which one of the billions of shows that you're on should I give a chance?
And yes, I give you and JP credit for even getting people to show up. Kudos.
On November 12 2010 05:02 Defacer wrote: To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
Many people have this same first impression of Slasher. But in his defense, he is one of the most passionate people in eSports as far as I'm concerned.
There's not another person on this planet that knows as much as this guy knows about nearly every single community in gaming. Whether Quake, StarCraft, WoW, Counter-Strike, Street Fighter... he may come off as brash and rude, but his dedication is unmatched.
He doesn't pit communities against one another, he doesn't try to claim one community is better than another... he just wants to see eSports grow, and he has his own way of doing it. I think he gets a bit of hate from this particular community because he's not as intimate with the members as others are. But people should at least give him the benefit of the doubt, because he's done nothing but help promote the community to OTHER communities.
Dude's just got to simmer down a bit. I'm sure he's a great guy, but you know how you'll go to a party and there's a guy that almost comes on too strong and doesn't know when to back off?
tl;dr - I accept that some people didn't think the venue was a good choice, but at the end of the day, the show wouldn't have been possible without a post-event party in which all the top gamers were attending. Also if I could do it over again I wouldn't change the "venue" but I would try to find a quieter location within said venue for the show.
I think the venue was a great choice because it was the kind of show you NEVER get to see. You might want to use a directional mic if you do something similar but I would love to see more shows like this in the future.
On November 12 2010 04:43 Klamity wrote: I apologize. It was more of the latter in that it was a gross over-generalization.
And perhaps the second part of your post comes down to a misunderstanding. It seems to me like you're more or less saying you don't care about criticism of the show and are going to continue doing whatever the hell you feel like doing.
Regardless, my main point is that you seem to neglect the fact that the people who the cast were also viewers. I'm disappointed that you don't seem to be taking their words or worries seriously. Criticism isn't meant to be insulting to you, it's meant to help.
I never once said I don't care about criticism of the show... if I really didn't care, I probably wouldn't have even bothered to post my thoughts on the situation. I take viewer criticism very seriously and while we don't try to cater to every single request, complaint, etc. I'd rather know and understand every view and angle from the audience/community.
Maybe the point I should have made is... this isn't much different that what I've been doing for the past 8 years with these shows. And that hasn't "prevented" me, the communities I'm involved in, or my co-hosts from having a successful career in video gaming.
My only complaint about the criticism is from those who didn't even watch the show, and so they just made assumptions about the content without actually seeing what it contained (or they took someone else's assumptions and ran with it...). Everyone who watched it all learned a great deal about the players/staff/personalities interviewed, yet some made it sound like we were bringing Ret on and asking him what his favorite sexual position was. That was simply NOT the case.
I completely stand by the content we created that night. If people didn't like the venue or felt the environment wasn't acceptable for that show, there's not much I CAN do about that.
But I certainly don't dismiss the intelligent criticism we get about the shows and the content we create... sometimes I just don't agree with it.
That's just the impression your initial post gave. I realize that what's happened happened and there aren't a whole bunch of negatives that resulted from it, but all I personally want is for you to be conscious of this in the future and it seems like you are.
As stated, a lot of people enjoyed the majority of the show, there were just some things (pointed out numerous times) which were questionable.
On November 12 2010 05:19 Defacer wrote: Question for you sir: was the MLG LO3 indicative of regular LO3? If I enjoy Day 9 and SOTG, which one of the billions of shows that you're on should I give a chance?
And yes, I give you and JP credit for even getting people to show up. Kudos.
Yes it was indicative of a regular LO3 in terms of the guests/content. We've always prided ourselves in the ability to bring on guests that people would be interested in hearing from. Whether that's a top player, an industry figure, a manager, etc... we bring interviews and content that you probably aren't going to find anywhere else.
Was it indicative of a regular LO3 in terms of the environment? No. I do LO3 in my living room. Anytime it's NOT done in my living room is obviously going to stray from the norm. But I'm also not one of those people who's going to go, "well I don't have my setup, so I'm not going to do a show".
I would suggest you check out the Church of Esports on Sunday which includes Weapon of Choice at 2PM EST and Live On Three immediately after at 4PM EST.
And to be fair, Slasher did most of the work in terms of asking players to come on the show.
On November 12 2010 05:02 Defacer wrote: To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
Many people have this same first impression of Slasher. But in his defense, he is one of the most passionate people in eSports as far as I'm concerned.
There's not another person on this planet that knows as much as this guy knows about nearly every single community in gaming. Whether Quake, StarCraft, WoW, Counter-Strike, Street Fighter... he may come off as brash and rude, but his dedication is unmatched.
He doesn't pit communities against one another, he doesn't try to claim one community is better than another... he just wants to see eSports grow, and he has his own way of doing it. I think he gets a bit of hate from this particular community because he's not as intimate with the members as others are. But people should at least give him the benefit of the doubt, because he's done nothing but help promote the community to OTHER communities.
Dude's just got to simmer down a bit. I'm sure he's a great guy, but you know how you'll go to a party and there's a guy that almost comes on too strong and doesn't know when to back off?
Just relax. Be Nony. Chill.
He's defending one of his close friends, how horrible of him.
LO3 afterparty was amazing and I hope to see more shows that are that fun, feature that many players and gossip. It was so amazing I watched nearly the whole thing, right after a day of MLG viewing to have that right after was insane and epic.
If people don't like it I recommend they just don't watch.
On November 12 2010 05:02 Defacer wrote: To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
Many people have this same first impression of Slasher. But in his defense, he is one of the most passionate people in eSports as far as I'm concerned.
There's not another person on this planet that knows as much as this guy knows about nearly every single community in gaming. Whether Quake, StarCraft, WoW, Counter-Strike, Street Fighter... he may come off as brash and rude, but his dedication is unmatched.
He doesn't pit communities against one another, he doesn't try to claim one community is better than another... he just wants to see eSports grow, and he has his own way of doing it. I think he gets a bit of hate from this particular community because he's not as intimate with the members as others are. But people should at least give him the benefit of the doubt, because he's done nothing but help promote the community to OTHER communities.
Dude's just got to simmer down a bit. I'm sure he's a great guy, but you know how you'll go to a party and there's a guy that almost comes on too strong and doesn't know when to back off?
Just relax. Be Nony. Chill.
I was as relaxed as I could be, Blue Moon is a pretty good beer. I respect your criticism, but that's just who I am, and you wouldn't have those players to listen to if I didn't try to round them up beforehand. And arranging the players in order for interviews (Laz first for hosting, Jinro for winning, IdrA's disappointing finish, etc) while not having the same team back to back (the final order went LG, Day9, EG, TL, EG, LG, EG, TL, TL, JP) is tough to do, so some yelling at people was necessary.
Also, Kate (millies, the girl at the end of the show) will be posting a blog soon with some of her thoughts on the show and Dallas in general. God, why do women think they can write blogs? http://imgur.com/DKA5W.jpg
Make sure to tune into Weapon of Choice and Live On Three this Sunday at 2 and 4 PM EST respectively, at http://www.djWHEAT.tv
On November 12 2010 05:11 djWHEAT wrote: I just wanted to make a quick point about the "venue".
Have you ever tried to herd cats? I'd imagine it would be really difficult. Let's pretend for a minute that StarCraft 2 players are a bit like cats. Difficult to herd. It's hard enough to schedule ONE player for an interview after the event let alone 10-12 players.
nLazerus offered to let us use his room as the place to record BECAUSE everyone was going to be there already, and from a production standpoint, that seemed to be the easiest way to actually accomplish what we wanted to accomplish... which was to pack as many guests into the show as humanly possible.
TRUST ME, if I could do it over again, I would definitely change a few things. For example, we were literally right in the middle of the "party". If I could do it over again, I would have moved the setup to a bit quieter of a location, but it would have still been within the party. Because the broadcast was there, with all the guests, it made it incredibly easy to bring them on and I wouldn't want to lose that ability.
When I look at the show from a production perspective there's no way that show could have been done WITHOUT being at that gathering of gamers. You can read that as an excuse all you want, but most people don't consider the production side of this show. It's not as easy as setting up some equipment and magically everything happening. In fact, it took us 2 hours just to get everything ready for the show... and that was after a grueling 12 hour day of Finals.
Regardless, I understand why some believe the venue wasn't the best. And that's fine. I get it. However, I don't agree that it reflected poorly on LO3. I think LO3 has proven in the past that our aim isn't to have the most amazing sets or production... our aim is to bring as much of esports as we can to the masses... and this presented a great opportunity to do just that. Where there is eSports, LO3 will follow. And if that happens to be in a hotel room with nearly every top gamer from the MLG Dallas tournament... then so be it.
tl;dr - I accept that some people didn't think the venue was a good choice, but at the end of the day, the show wouldn't have been possible without a post-event party in which all the top gamers were attending. Also if I could do it over again I wouldn't change the "venue" but I would try to find a quieter location within said venue for the show.
Thank you for the response regarding the setup. I admit, it must be difficult to get a bunch of gamers lined up for a show. Like you stated, I just wish it would have been in a more isolated area where it could have been less chaotic.
Keep on doing what you do, wheat. Without people like you, I wouldn't have stuck with e-sports as long as I have.
As for the negative comments people have made about slasher: The guy is a total boss. He is the guy who tells it how he sees it and doesn't care about how he is received. His bluntness is something a show like Lo3 needs. He brings a different outlook on things, and that is awesome.
On November 12 2010 05:02 Defacer wrote: To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
Many people have this same first impression of Slasher. But in his defense, he is one of the most passionate people in eSports as far as I'm concerned.
There's not another person on this planet that knows as much as this guy knows about nearly every single community in gaming. Whether Quake, StarCraft, WoW, Counter-Strike, Street Fighter... he may come off as brash and rude, but his dedication is unmatched.
He doesn't pit communities against one another, he doesn't try to claim one community is better than another... he just wants to see eSports grow, and he has his own way of doing it. I think he gets a bit of hate from this particular community because he's not as intimate with the members as others are. But people should at least give him the benefit of the doubt, because he's done nothing but help promote the community to OTHER communities.
Dude's just got to simmer down a bit. I'm sure he's a great guy, but you know how you'll go to a party and there's a guy that almost comes on too strong and doesn't know when to back off?
Just relax. Be Nony. Chill.
I was as relaxed as I could be, Blue Moon is a pretty good beer. I respect your criticism, but that's just who I am, and you wouldn't have those players to listen to if I didn't try to round them up beforehand. And arranging the players in order for interviews (Laz first for hosting, Jinro for winning, IdrA's disappointing finish, etc) while not having the same team back to back (the final order went LG, Day9, EG, TL, EG, LG, EG, TL, TL, JP) is tough to do, so some yelling at people was necessary.
Also, Kate (millies, the girl at the end of the show) will be posting a blog soon with some of her thoughts on the show and Dallas in general. God, why do women think they can write blogs? http://imgur.com/DKA5W.jpg
Make sure to tune into Weapon of Choice and Live On Three this Sunday at 2 and 4 PM EST respectively, at http://www.djWHEAT.tv
Let me just clarify something: I wouldn't criticize or offer feedback at all if I didn't have an immense respect and appreciation for the work all you guys do: Slasher, JP, Wheat, Scoots etc. You guys are doing a GREAT job spreading and promoting esports.
Any feedback from me comes from a desire to see you guys keep evolving and improving your work. One measure of e-sports success is when you guys start making serious money from what you already do.
This reminds me of when the snowboarding scene was just about to blow-up and become mainstream. It's not about selling out or changing yourselves, but cashing in on all the hard work you put in.
On November 12 2010 04:43 Klamity wrote: I apologize. It was more of the latter in that it was a gross over-generalization.
And perhaps the second part of your post comes down to a misunderstanding. It seems to me like you're more or less saying you don't care about criticism of the show and are going to continue doing whatever the hell you feel like doing.
Regardless, my main point is that you seem to neglect the fact that the people who the cast were also viewers. I'm disappointed that you don't seem to be taking their words or worries seriously. Criticism isn't meant to be insulting to you, it's meant to help.
Everyone who watched it all learned a great deal about the players/staff/personalities interviewed, yet some made it sound like we were bringing Ret on and asking him what his favorite sexual position was. That was simply NOT the case.
I modded something along the lines of 2500 people at 1 AM for that show, and the chat was blowing the fuck up laughing and having a good time watching the show, where were all the haters of the show then? Its pretty evident that they are NOT the majority here, yet the more you guys inflate it, the more you take away from the actual, silent majority.
Absolutely. If you have any doubt that the vast majority would like to see more shows like this do a poll and I'm sure it will be better than 10-1 in favor.
Man why the hell are some members of the SC community such freaking prudes. Quit being whiny bitches and watch something else if you are a person that's like... "oh dear lord there drinking alcohol and playing beer pong hide my virgin eyes!"
Deal with it.
Keep bringing the best stuff to the SC2 community djWHEAT, Slasher & SirScoots you guys rock.
On November 12 2010 03:43 ZlaSHeR wrote:Like we've said several times who gives a shit if there was drinking, it was a party, that happens, they weren't broadcasting this under the FCC or under federal control, it was just a show.
And as I have stated, it was a great, entertaining stream. However, I feel *in my opinion* having it stamped as a live on 3 show just doesn't fit well.
I went to three CPL events. Each time, we(the players) had outrageous after parties. I am not against having fun. Hell, I encourage it. I *WISH* I was at MLG to experience it first hand.
All I ask is that people quit bringing strawman into the discussion.
I think the problem is that your interpretation of what LO3 is supposed to be is at odds with it's actual purpose.
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Well to me, it wasn't a LO3 broadcast, but an opportunity for the LO3 guys to pick up regular viewers of other shows: MLG, State of the Game, etc. Just in terms of a business strategy to boost their audience, it just seemed like a bit of a missed opportunity, especially with access to amazing guests.
Maybe they should do a short, "real" LO3 for half-an-hour after MLG, than go into after party mode. Best of both worlds.
If you think that's what that was about then you don't know Wheat at all. I 100% guarantee the conversation that spawned that show went something like this:
Wheat: We should do a LO3 after MLG when everyone is hanging out and we can get like everyone on the show at once. How badass would that be? Slasher: Yea dude that'll be awesome! Scoots: We need pizza for this to work.. Wheat: Let's do it, it'll be a lot of fun!!!"
Note the bolded word there. I know these guys well enough to know they did it for the fun factor and nothing else. If they cared about ratings they would have just created another show on Ustream under Wheat's main channel regardless what when Wheat's stream was having issues, and would not have used Cat In a Box.....
Seriously this was on channel Cat In a Box, I know I keep coming back to this but there is no universe out there that you can join on and notice it's called Cat in a Box and go to yourself "oh, this must be the MLG off hours channel, makes sense."
Now if you were an animal lover that only turned on the channel full expecting a cat in a box you may very well have a legitimate bitch....
The reason I do things like the LO3 Post-MLG Show, [...] is cause I'm a nerd just like you guys. That's my outlet. That's where I get to yell and bitch about this horrible game I played, vent about a developer who I think has screwed us over, argue the finer points of micro-transactions, etc. My outlet also happens to best convey my own personality which is loud, a little obnoxious, and (hopefully) entertaining.
If that's what wheat envisions for the show, how was this broadcast inappropriately stamped as a LO3 broadcast?
Because when I tune in on a normal Sunday, it isnt in an extremely loud environment with camera pans showing a bunch of people drinking and playing beer pong.
That is it. The venue and atmosphere just didn't fit a typical Lo3 setup and I just think it gives a poor representation of what wheat does on a weekly basis.
When you tune into LO3 on Sunday's, you tune in at 11PM EST and right after the MLG Championships on channel Cat in a Box? The fact that is was at a time that did not even make sense for the show's name, after the championships, and on a channel that you 100% have never ever watched LO3 on EVER before that should have all been strong clues that this show may be slightly different then normal.
I think it only strengthens it. To me this is no different then having reporters in the locker rooms after sports games championships interviewing the players as they drink and party their asses off. It's just the E-Sports industry receives so little attention Wheat is one of the first guys to do this in SCII. The nice thing about E-Sports is instead of only showing the winners partying and the losers being all sad, you see EVERYONE hanging out having a good time. That spoke volumes to me right there to show where the overall level of respect in the SCII community is.
Diamond is 100% correct. That's pretty much the mentality of the crew.
wheat my only request is that you guys buy some clip on mics for next time lol. The post tourney show was awesome but haters gonna hate. I totally agree about straddling the line, everyone has the right to speak freely when they aren't in pro mode.
I have to say that there should have been more of the style of LO3 you did after the games during the downtime. Your post is well thought out (as expected) and to the point. People who think that any spectator sport/game started out by being 100% professional evidently do not watch ice hockey, boxing, or any other sport in the world.
There is a very obvious line between professional (a la the channel 5 news) and 'fun' that people can usually conceptualize.
That said, when Mountain Dew pays you $10 billion to be "professional Wheat," I will stop watching LO3. I know that will never happen, because as you said, LO3 and other shows you do are outlets for you.
Keep up the good work - I loved the show and the commentary. You and Day9 work excellently together.
That said, when Mountain Dew pays you $10 billion to be "professional Wheat," I will stop watching LO3. I know that will never happen, because as you said, LO3 and other shows you do are outlets for you.
I find it hilarious that people like me are considered 'the haters'.
Wheat, sell out all you want man. I won't judge you for being too successful. Those are the REAL haters.
On November 12 2010 05:02 Defacer wrote: To be frank, I found Slasher annoying. There you go. I said it. Wheat seems perfectly fine though.
Many people have this same first impression of Slasher. But in his defense, he is one of the most passionate people in eSports as far as I'm concerned.
There's not another person on this planet that knows as much as this guy knows about nearly every single community in gaming. Whether Quake, StarCraft, WoW, Counter-Strike, Street Fighter... he may come off as brash and rude, but his dedication is unmatched.
He doesn't pit communities against one another, he doesn't try to claim one community is better than another... he just wants to see eSports grow, and he has his own way of doing it. I think he gets a bit of hate from this particular community because he's not as intimate with the members as others are. But people should at least give him the benefit of the doubt, because he's done nothing but help promote the community to OTHER communities.
It's funny how much me and Slasher share in common other than having our names confused
On November 12 2010 05:11 djWHEAT wrote: I just wanted to make a quick point about the "venue".
Have you ever tried to herd cats? I'd imagine it would be really difficult. Let's pretend for a minute that StarCraft 2 players are a bit like cats. Difficult to herd. It's hard enough to schedule ONE player for an interview after the event let alone 10-12 players.
nLazerus offered to let us use his room as the place to record BECAUSE everyone was going to be there already, and from a production standpoint, that seemed to be the easiest way to actually accomplish what we wanted to accomplish... which was to pack as many guests into the show as humanly possible.
TRUST ME, if I could do it over again, I would definitely change a few things. For example, we were literally right in the middle of the "party". If I could do it over again, I would have moved the setup to a bit quieter of a location, but it would have still been within the party. Because the broadcast was there, with all the guests, it made it incredibly easy to bring them on and I wouldn't want to lose that ability.
When I look at the show from a production perspective there's no way that show could have been done WITHOUT being at that gathering of gamers. You can read that as an excuse all you want, but most people don't consider the production side of this show. It's not as easy as setting up some equipment and magically everything happening. In fact, it took us 2 hours just to get everything ready for the show... and that was after a grueling 12 hour day of Finals.
Regardless, I understand why some believe the venue wasn't the best. And that's fine. I get it. However, I don't agree that it reflected poorly on LO3. I think LO3 has proven in the past that our aim isn't to have the most amazing sets or production... our aim is to bring as much of esports as we can to the masses... and this presented a great opportunity to do just that. Where there is eSports, LO3 will follow. And if that happens to be in a hotel room with nearly every top gamer from the MLG Dallas tournament... then so be it.
tl;dr - I accept that some people didn't think the venue was a good choice, but at the end of the day, the show wouldn't have been possible without a post-event party in which all the top gamers were attending. Also if I could do it over again I wouldn't change the "venue" but I would try to find a quieter location within said venue for the show.
Question for you sir: was the MLG LO3 indicative of regular LO3? If I enjoy Day 9 and SOTG, which one of the billions of shows that you're on should I give a chance?
And yes, I give you and JP credit for even getting people to show up. Kudos.
Depends on what you like. If you just want SC2 talk, watch Weapon of Choice, if you want progaming talk (every single pro game, community, team, etc. type of stuff) watch Live On Three, if you like video game reviews, watch Epileptic Gaming.
On November 11 2010 21:30 Morfildur wrote: I didn't see the show and i liked your casting at the MLG, but with this post and some of your replies in this thread (yes, i read all 10 pages existing when i started writing this post... including the "Toys'r'us child", "don't want to grow up",... seriously?) you lost a lot of my respect.
In the US it might be normal to party, get drunk, make bad jokes, laugh about blow job jokes, ... but you have an international audience (though thanks to bad american comedy shows - where they even tell you when to laugh - the difference isn't that big anymore sadly).
Maybe i'm just too old and don't understand your generation (though i'm propably younger than you, but since you don't want to grow up... well...), but i really don't like this immature attitude, no matter _where_ someone shows it. I don't respect TaKeSen for hiring a stripper to a tournament either (and thats me working in the adult industry maintaining a system storing and managing over 100 Terabyte Porn).
Well, i guess someone has to be the clown (or if you prefer, entertainer) for the lower classes so they never learn to rise above themselves and learn to be more than just... children.
Who do you rather be? The young marine on the battlefield who has an exciting, though quite short life, or the commander of the battleship in orbit?
Yes, this post might offend you and possibly a lot others, but well, have fun with your partying, spring breaks, comedy shows, college football,... come back to this post when you have finally grown up in about 30-40 years. Well, ok, if the world develops as i expect it will be in ruins by then, so i just hope everyone grows up before then... but i don't expect it.
Just a Note: To those who said the event was at night, children shouldn't watch it anyways... it's always afternoon somewhere on the world and some children might watch it (though i don't think it's the strongest argument against such a stream).
What motivates this kind of jack ass to post. He starts off with how superiour he is to Americans then goes onto say he is a porn pusher. So we are suppose to think you are mature yet cool. What I get from that is you are a hypocrit and a scumbag.
I want to apologize for my rude posts yesterday. I let my frustration with other people at work out on you folks, which was neither nice nor acceptable. I still do not agree with djWheats mindset, but after sleeping a night and calming down i see that i let my bad mood take control.
Ofc i consider everyone to be human (though some people i don't consider to be wise, but well, i still have to work with them every day).
Apologies to djWheat and any other person i might have offended.
At the poster above (who was not the motivation for the post btw): I'm not a "porn pusher", i work for one of the two major adult companies in germany, which means i have a thick hide regarding vulgar language, porn, strippers, etc, but there are still some things i can't accept... like strippers at SC2 tournaments.
Still not quite sure why you felt the need to post on the topic or Incontrol felt the need to sermonize once again to those unwashed masses of the internet.
Personally, I thought it was fun to see people in a chill, relaxed, post gaming environment. It was a privledge to see the progamer after party. You deigned to take time out of your deserved chill time to put on a production for us. I and it seems many others appreciate this.
Post like these and the mini rant on SOTG just seem to be making something out of nothing.
What people need to understand is that shows like LO3, Weapon of Choice, Day [9], JP and even the oft maligned HDStarcraft and Husky provide a huge service to the community. Attacking them is bad for the game. I have been in a similar situation and when you are attacked you are not in a good position to defend yourself, your motives or your goals even if it's purely for the benefit of others. SC2 is still in a make or break phase. We should be doing what we can to help, especially regarding those in a position to make a big difference. That doesn't mean you have to be a sycophant, I'm sure constructive criticism is welcome but try and keep it positive.
On November 12 2010 15:55 Sabu113 wrote: Post like these and the mini rant on SOTG just seem to be making something out of nothing.
And you may be right, but I did state in the original thread that I wanted to share my perspective. That thread was closed, and I didn't want to open another one, so I just posted a blog. I didn't realize it would get the feedback it did. Either way, I"m just happy to have gone on record.
Alright. Perhaps I'm stepping out of line by returning to the issue, if I am, feel free to mod me. I don't have many posts to my name, I realize this.
So I watched the entire show live, and I REwatched the show again just recently. Additionally, I rewatched these alleged "final minutes of DOOM" which seemed to start the bandwagon rolling on calling the show unprofessional, uncalled for, and in several cases, ignorant.
After this, I attempted to read through, as closely as possible, the relevant threads in an attempt to understand the complaints. Unfortunately, I've been unsuccessful in finding a complaint detailing a SPECIFIC instance of unprofessionalism.
Sweeping generalizations about profanity at a party are abound, which is irrelevant because you're watching gamers in their dare I say, "natural" setting.
What I'm not hearing are specifics. I haven't heard: - "He called this person a !@$!" - "At 2:35, Wheat cold-cocked Day9 upside the head with a bottle of 80-proof" - "At the two hour mark, we can clearly see two people dry-humping on the couch" - "Somebody exposed themselves on the stream while simultaneously yelling NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED"
We all know nothing of this caliber happened. If you're going to make an argument, you need specifics.
So now my humble question. Can anyone please point out for me what exactly happened in the aforementioned "final minutes" that was so different from the rest of the stream that set this ball rolling? I'm just trying to understand what SPECIFICALLY people didn't appreciate about it.
Personally I've boiled it down to this 1) Slasher wanted to invite millie on, 2) Time was out, she came and sat next to him, 3) He loudly proclaimed the winner of the SoCal SF tournament. 4) Show ended.
Personally I found the show to be an absolutely exciting and insightful experience. It was great to see the gamers personalities shine through, and they are all extremely mature and intelligent people. Honestly after watching shows like this and listening to SotG, I almost want to become a progamer JUST to experience the sense of community and camaraderie that develops at these tournaments. I enjoyed it.
If anyone thinks the setting was unprofessional, they clearly haven't been to a fraternity, or had noisy meatheaded friends decide to throw an impromptu kegger and invite hookers over. When reading the tone of some of these negative responses, without actually watching the stream, you start to think that actually happened.
It didn't. Day9 had a pizza overdose. It was great. Please keep doing what you do Wheat.
I was just bounced back to this post from millie's MLG recap blog. Every part of the weekend was great to watch on stream, up to AND including your post-MLG show. Hope you something like that again in the future!
I liked the show! It was real, raw and uncut! Interviews with the best players and relaxed talks!
I'm amazed how so much hate, some 20 year old kids, can throw just because they talk like you do!!!!! yes, everybody is pissed because they talked like normal guys (altho a bit nerdy hehe)!
If you take starcraft out of the show and put nba or usa football it would be normal! but since it's drinking, starcraft, noise and nerds it's a scandal!! they even got a girl huhuh
On November 12 2010 12:15 Defacer wrote: I'll probably give Weapon of Choice a shot. I don't have time to follow ANOTHER game. And honestly, SC2 has the best players of any e-sport, I think.
Like Wheat said, and I agree with, you can't go around bashing other communities saying they're worse, or that their players aren't better if you want esports to grow individualistically or as a whole.
I follow every game, but Starcraft 2 the closest, there are differences in communities but you can't label one as better than any other one. To do that would just be blatantly ignorant.
On November 12 2010 12:15 Defacer wrote: I'll probably give Weapon of Choice a shot. I don't have time to follow ANOTHER game. And honestly, SC2 has the best players of any e-sport, I think.
Like Wheat said, and I agree with, you can't go around bashing other communities saying they're worse, or that their players aren't better if you want esports to grow individualistically or as a whole.
I follow every game, but Starcraft 2 the closest, there are differences in communities but you can't label one as better than any other one. To do that would just be blatantly ignorant.
Wasn't meant as a 'bash', more as a compliment to the prominent SC2 players.
You're right, I don't know enough about the other communities. I physically just don't have the time to follow that many sports. Between basketball and SC2 boards, that's enough for me.
I'm sure even a sport like billiards or darts could be interesting (probably not) if you really wanted to get into it.
After this, I attempted to read through, as closely as possible, the relevant threads in an attempt to understand the complaints. Unfortunately, I've been unsuccessful in finding a complaint detailing a SPECIFIC instance of unprofessionalism.
Sweeping generalizations about profanity at a party are abound, which is irrelevant because you're watching gamers in their dare I say, "natural" setting.
What I'm not hearing are specifics. I haven't heard: - "He called this person a !@$!" - "At 2:35, Wheat cold-cocked Day9 upside the head with a bottle of 80-proof" - "At the two hour mark, we can clearly see two people dry-humping on the couch" - "Somebody exposed themselves on the stream while simultaneously yelling NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED"
We all know nothing of this caliber happened. If you're going to make an argument, you need specifics.
So now my humble question. Can anyone please point out for me what exactly happened in the aforementioned "final minutes" that was so different from the rest of the stream that set this ball rolling? I'm just trying to understand what SPECIFICALLY people didn't appreciate about it.
.
The end of the show was kind of a blur to me. I recall Slasher trying to pull off some kind of elaborate mass bow-down/cock-sucking joke that fell flat.
Profanity is irrelevant, but what people are actually saying is relevant. It all depends on context and intent. When Day9 calls InControl a piece of shit on SOTG it's obvious that it's just two guys busting each other's balls. When Scoots yells at HD and calls him a piece of shit ... well, that's obviously an instance where one guy got so frustrated that he overreacted and mishandled himself a little bit.
Just because a setting is supposed to be "natural" or "casual" doesn't mean that the show exists in a protective bubble, free of criticism of judgement, or normal social rules don't apply. That's just not the way the world, anywhere, works. I'm sure there's a kindergarten teacher out there somewhere, watching a cute 4-year old kid eat some paste during Creativity-Fun-Happy-Freedom-Time, and thinking to herself, "God, that kid's fucking stupid."
Like I was saying before, this is less about LO3's 'professionalism' -- they work hard and are professional whenever they want to be -- but more a case of them experimenting, and trying to find the balance between how casual they can be before it starts to get in the way of the show.
I did like the fact that I was able to time my smoke-breaks with Wheat's. That's something that all casts should have!
On November 12 2010 12:15 Defacer wrote: I'll probably give Weapon of Choice a shot. I don't have time to follow ANOTHER game. And honestly, SC2 has the best players of any e-sport, I think.
Like Wheat said, and I agree with, you can't go around bashing other communities saying they're worse, or that their players aren't better if you want esports to grow individualistically or as a whole.
I follow every game, but Starcraft 2 the closest, there are differences in communities but you can't label one as better than any other one. To do that would just be blatantly ignorant.
Wasn't meant as a 'bash', more as a compliment to the prominent SC2 players.
You're right, I don't know enough about the other communities. I physically just don't have the time to follow that many sports. Between basketball and SC2 boards, that's enough for me.
I'm sure even a sport like billiards or darts could be interesting (probably not) if you really wanted to get into it.
Replying to your later comment - so you didn't actually watch the end of the show, but you continue to speak on it. Just making sure!
Replying to your later comment - so you didn't actually watch the end of the show, but you continue to speak on it. Just making sure!
I personally never had an issue with the end of the show. I was just trying to be courteous and answer another poster's question.
I stopped watching at some point after JP's interview: Slasher was yelling something about bowing down and sucking, there was a shitload of yelling, Millie sat by the couch, and it was pretty clear they were going the close the show out because Wheat kept saying they had to get out of there.
But nice try trying to lump me in with some other guy's opinion.
Anyway, thanks for the vids. I was watching a lot of SFIII at one point, but had to give it up once. Once you work full-time and get engaged your days fill up really fast.
A watched the whole show from start to end - and loved it. To be fair, I think that this is exactly what the SC scene needs - real people. The biggest problem is that the nature of the game means that players should be isolated from the fans during the game. This might be fine in Korea, where they encourage players to hide their emotions, but if we want esports in the West to grow, we need personalities. The fact that no player comes even close to Day9 in popularity says enough about how important this is.
The problem of the cast was not the camera movement, the swearing or Millie's cleavage - it was the sound quality. I hope you continue doing after-shows - albeit with some adjustments.
P.S. Semi-related - some of these players earn about 1 million dollars every month, excluding sponsorship deals, and this was one of the biggest night of their lives. Talk about professionalism...
On November 11 2010 06:04 djWHEAT wrote: I just want to make it very clear to everyone who thinks otherwise, that you CAN straddle the line... and I'll do it till I die.
God fucking DAMN you are such a ridiculous baller. Hats off to you good sir.
A guy who vents his concerns in a respectful and constructive manner, also saying he loved 99% of the show - is labled a 'hater'. God I love the interwebs...
I want to say that Sir Scoots had it dead-on during the cast today. Framed the issue perfectly. The original poster and issue was simply about the potential for something bad to have happened. Nothing did, and the program was solid gold. Never change, but be careful!
EPT
\m/
![[image loading]](http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/1008/mlb_g_rays2_sw_580.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://h-3.abload.de/img/scientolowheatngof.jpg)
