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Over the past few days I felt like I've been playing more and more ZvZ. (and losing most of them) And so, this evening, after watching MLG's exciting conclusion, I (painstakingly) went through my last 50 ladder matches, and recorded my wins vs losses in each matchup.
Obviously 50 games is a tiny sample size, but I think its enough of one to at least notice some fun trends in my play.
Prior to going over these, I would have said that ZvP is my best matchup, ZvZ my worst, and that my ZvT falls somewhere in between. Here's what the numbers said:
Out of 50 games...
Total ZvT: 10
W: 8
L: 2
Total ZvP: 17
W: 10
L: 7
Total ZvZ: 23(!!!)
W: 6
L: 17
My conclusion:
What the FUUUCCCCKKKK!!!
Almost half of my last 50 games have been ZvZ, and of those games, I'm barely winning 25% of the time. Words cannot begin to describe how hopeless I feel when I see another Zerg across from me on the loading screen.
I was surprised to see that my W/L in ZvP was so close to even. I've been working hard on that matchup, and in spite of the numbers, still have the most confidence in it.
While I was surprised at the amount of losses, I do know exactly what they stem from. Timing pushes thrown in the face of my muta/ling. At least this reinforces something I already knew: Be more mindful of that timing window.
The ZvT stats really surprised me. I've never been overly confident in my ZvT. I have to feel like my high win rate there is just a deception of the abnormally small amount of games I've played. Only 20% of my last 50 ladder games have been vT. Where have all the Terrans gone? =(
The other side of my high win rate vT, I feel, comes from the tendency of most Terrans at my level to all-in at some point in the game.
It might be one base, or it might be two, but its rare that I ever run across a T player on the ladder who takes a 3rd.
-shrug-
In closing, I have this to say:
Fuck you ZvZ. Fuck you matchmaking for forcing me to play one every other game.
FFFFFffffffffuuuuuuuu!!!!!!
... I can't wait to work on that matchup in my next session with iNcontroL!
... (On Wednesday. At 7PM EST. On my stream. Tune in!)
 
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I've also had an alarming amount of ZvZ's recently, and there is no satisfaction in winning that MU. In ZvZ, everyone is the loser.
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No kidding man, I'm around the 2k mark in diamond (I think from your stream thread i remember you being around there) and I've been FLOODED with zergs on the ladder. I'm not going to go back and count like you did but I'm certain it is similar percentages. I guess either the zergs play more games or there are a lot more of them now thanks to the new(ish) patch! (not that two players experiences can prove anything statistically!)
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Should have been smart like me and thought ahead! One of the reasons I didn't switch back to zerg at 1.1.2 (had been playing p for a week) was I hate zvz.
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What exactly are you having trouble with in ZvZ? I feel like I can help as I've got a pretty good understanding of most of the matchup. (still not sure about contaminate builds, and roach//roach bling vs speedling expo)
I get the impression people hate it because they don't quite understand it to be honest.
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On November 08 2010 11:45 Slayer91 wrote:
What exactly are you having trouble with in ZvZ? I feel like I can help as I've got a pretty good understanding of most of the matchup. (still not sure about contaminate builds, and roach//roach bling vs speedling expo)
I get the impression people hate it because they don't quite understand it to be honest.
As a 2100 Diamond Zerg player, I am not at all ashamed to admit that I don't have a fucking clue when it comes to ZvZ.
Everything from build orders, to transitions, to expanding, to army composition just feels foreign to me.
I know that roaches beat banes. But whenever I go roach, I lose to banes.
I know that hydra beat mutas. But whenever I go hydra, I lose to mutas.
I know that infestors are fucking awesome. But whenever I make infestors, I lose to some other asinine combination of units.
I played a ZvZ today where I went Roach/Broodlord. I had the stronger standing army, and the better economy.
I still fucking lost in a base race because broods are about as mobile as my fucking desk.
Sigh.
Fucking ZvZ.
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On November 08 2010 11:55 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 11:45 Slayer91 wrote:
What exactly are you having trouble with in ZvZ? I feel like I can help as I've got a pretty good understanding of most of the matchup. (still not sure about contaminate builds, and roach//roach bling vs speedling expo)
I get the impression people hate it because they don't quite understand it to be honest. As a 2100 Diamond Zerg player, I am not at all ashamed to admit that I don't have a fucking clue when it comes to ZvZ. Everything from build orders, to transitions, to expanding, to army composition just feels foreign to me. I know that roaches beat banes. But whenever I go roach, I lose to banes. I know that hydra beat mutas. But whenever I go hydra, I lose to mutas. I know that infestors are fucking awesome. But whenever I make infestors, I lose to some other asinine combination of units. I played a ZvZ today where I went Roach/Broodlord. I had the stronger standing army, and the better economy. I still fucking lost in a base race because broods are about as mobile as my fucking desk. Sigh. Fucking ZvZ.
Yeah I'm a pretty similar to your rating on EU servers.
1: Don't go hydras against mutas. Mutas are the most mobile zerg unit and hydras are the least mobile. Hydras behind roaches only. Thats the only situation they work well. The way to hold off muta is queens and infestors. You add constant queens when you expect muta and you can expand, you don't need many roaches//lings whatever you were making before, just drones and queens. muta techers go drones and mutas so that allows them to invest a lot of minerals in economy while gaining intiative. The way I handle this is having queens which I need for larva and creep anyway and then go infestors which totally negates the harass and makes mutas a liability. I then use 3-4 200 energy queens in my army to tranfuse and infestors +queens to handle mutas.
You can go hydra if he tries to muta after you get 2 bases running.
2: Lings rapes roaches. Even with banelings, they help enough especially if you clump your roaches. Roaches however, are a great all around unit. Lings are useful for harass, early game, and once midgame hits they're worthless because banelings and fungal just own them so hard. They are also cheaper on larva so roach openings are more well rounded but you either need to get banelings or fast +1 attack (same with zealots, you 2 shot lings, turns roaches into zergling killing machines. If he gets +1 carapace you can go baneling or wait for +2 since you need +3 zergling armour to counteract that, lol). The reason roach openings are popular is you can go roach/baneling and you're better than ling baneling because roaches can snipe his banelings and you keep your banelings next to your roaches until he engages.
If you're going zerglings you want to have something behind it. Either mutas or an expo with enough drones to switch to roaches fast enough to defend a roach/baneling. If you can mass spine crawlers do that. VS speedling expo its probably better to roach bane expand and get lair so you can scout for either muta or what.
Infestors are support units, get them if he's going muta, but otherwise only when you've got spare gas. Having a fungal feels great, but its harder to notice the effect of 3-4 extra roaches in a fight, but the 3-4 roaches win.
What build order do you usually open with? I may have to rework mine but it was like
scout
14 pool
15 gas
2-4 lings depending on info queen, roach warren
get an evo chamber around 18, drone to 20, second queen if he's not going super fast ling speedi n which case you want to roach only.
22 ovi
make roaches and get +1 attack
If he's going ling baneling once +1 attack kicks in you're ahead, if he goes speedling into muta you stay on 1 base and get lair and add a third queen and expand and get an infestor defn. You should be able to defend without spore crawlers if you're doing it well. You can transition to a roach queen infestor attack and the only thing that beats that is mass roaches with more minerals than you. Queens are slow but they get there eventually just keep reinforcing and when you get on his creep you go kill him. I've beaten 1v2 base and 2v4 base roach/queen/infesor vs stuff like muta ling. Fungal mutas, fungal lings/banelings, kill muta with queen, roaches kill everything while being transfused.
If he goes muta and then ultra rushes and you're not comfortable with a timing attack you can go hydra/queen and stop roach production get 3 base and nydus him. Queens and hydra take only 18 damage from ultra and queens take with tranfuse and hydras deal the damage. You ened enough infestor/roach to deal with lings. I like to nydus his third in this situation (i've only done it once and people stopped trying to hive rush)
It might be smarter to go roach/baneling vs mass ling and not get +1, because he can get +1 carapace in reaction. its possible you can just go +1 attack THEN go roach baneling vs +1 carapace and just make an extra queen and some lings or something, I'm not sure.
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Clearly from this data we can start saying that ZvZ is pretty fucking imba at this point in the game. new patch needs to come out asap.
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The thing that im currently starting to grasp in ZvZ is that some strats are really map dependant. Particulary the use of Hydras, they are extremely strong on a map like blistering sands because of the narrow paths but they are really hard to pull off on maps like metalopolis so playing two "equal" BO will result in 2 totally different outcomes.
Still i think its by far my worst MU.
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EPT
