• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:48
CEST 23:48
KST 06:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview9[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9
Community News
Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?4Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris45Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!15Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw? #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again! 2024/25 Off-Season Roster Moves
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Monday Nights Weeklies LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments 🏆 GTL Season 2 – StarCraft II Team League $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies
Brood War
General
Starcraft at lower levels TvP Victoria gamers ASL20 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: herO's Baffling Game
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group F [IPSL] CSLAN Review and CSLPRO Reimagined! Small VOD Thread 2.0 Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 665 users

Becoming more efficient + help with my zvz build?

Blogs > Vanka
Post a Reply
Vanka
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
China1336 Posts
October 23 2010 21:09 GMT
#1
So, even though I got into BW pretty late (first games I saw live were the 08-09 proleague finals), I got really hardcore into it really quickly. My friend hated starcraft for whatever reason, and since I played a pirated copy from china with all the cheats on when I was in grade school, I asked him for his copy. When I first got online (the pirated copies didn't have cdkeys, naturally), I just ended up playing fastest and big game hunters, and but as I got more and more into proleague, I started doing iccup last January.

Progression was actually appreciably fast enough (though I stuck on 2v2 for too long), the first season I was D, the second I was D+ and the third (just as SC2 beta was coming out), I should have been C-. The days as I was going over 2700+ points on iccup were right before finals and term paper due dates, so when I was playing I was super stressed out and nervous, so I ended up playing really well as I was clicking the hell out of everything. I hit 2950 points a couple hours before the final, and then after the final I slept for 14 hours and the first thing I did when I woke up was boot up BW.

Christ that was dumb, I was so groggy and tired after sleeping so long that I couldn't play at all. I ended losing something like 15 games in a row. By the time I won a game, I was already back down to D. At that point, SC2 was out so I just went, "screw BW, too hard."

The thing is, I went into BW with a full understanding of how hard the game is. I also knew that I would be for a very long time, a relatively low apm player (I was never good at typing fast, even). As such, I picked a lot of bad habits that would have soon stopped my progression past C-. For instance, large army control: I didn't hotkey my army. Yeah, I put my muta stack as 1, and I kept some lings hotkeyed in case I needed to engage in the middle of the map. Yeah, 4-8 were hatcheries and I used that to macro. But when I attacked, I just clicked all over my rally points and a-moved to the opponent's base. I got to D+ because I would start timing the groups I was sending, so I would send the slow units first, and I would time it so that the army from one base would arrive at the same time as the other. To dodge storms, I would just box select the hydras under fire and move them back, no hotkeys involved. My late game was terrible: the larger these armies got, the more I would have to select manually from my rally points. Since I always would rush ultras, my defiler use was extremely subpar.

Then, when I switched, the first thing I noticed about 1v1 in SC2 that it was honest to god, a joke compared to the level I was playing even at D+ (though I never did avoid Korean hours). I had no clue how the game worked compared to the established standards of bw, so every game I winged it, and won because I had more apm at even in low diamond. I just hey, this game is super easy, and just messed around. Once I started actually losing (at the time though, it was mostly to 4 gate), I just went and did team games to mess around in--I'm like #120 in NA random 3v3 whoo.

Recently, however, I went back and played a handful of bw games and was surprised to learn, while my game sense had gone to absolute shit, I was still able to do everything that I used to be able to do. My apm was around the same. So I went and took a couple ladder games seriously, and now I'm at the wonderfully mediocre level of 1100 diamond, and the games I'm winning are because my opponents are doing stupid shit and making huge mistakes, because 1100 diamond players are pretty terrible. I'm at the point though, that sometime soon I'm going to have to stop messing around and work on my fundamentals.



Anyway, so finally arriving at the point, I've decided to stick with sc2 seriously, and that means I have to correct a lot of my bad habits, like using the fact that I was a low apm player as an excuse. So there's a couple things I would like some opinions on.

1)I need to stop playing on this laggy old laptop. I've decided to get parts online for a desktop that I can get someone to assemble, but any recommendations for a keyboard/mouse?

2)Hotkeys. I'm really used to having 1-3 to keep important units on hand, and even more so in sc2 where large army control isn't actually a hard skill to learn. I kept hatcheries from 4-8 (with 0 my initial scouting overlord, and nothing usually for 9). If I put a second hatch in my main or nat, then I add it to 4 or 5, and sometimes I get lazy and hotkey my third, fourth, and fifth bases all to 6, but I like keeping it seperate. This means I don't have queens hotkeyed. This is actually fine: though doing a lot of rushes for team games has made my micro pretty decent, I'm very macro oriented and hit most of my injects just by going 4-4 on the hatchery and selecting it. Keeping all my hatches separate also lets me see the progress bar for the injects.

The question is, what do you think I should do? The current method currently works for me, but it's pretty inefficient. Should I just work on being able to be quick enough that I can just keep doing what I'm doing? I've tried putting my main at 5 and moving everything else up one, and hotkeying all my queens at 4, but I've been doing main hatch = 4 for so long it's going to take a while to adjust. Putting away 3 really seems unreasonable.

3) Spellcasters. I don't use them often. I'm pretty sure I've lost some zvts I should have won because I never got infestors. And well, I don't know how to use them, how to micro them, how to hotkey them relative to my army. I haven't got an internal timing where I would transition into them, because if I get that extra gas, my reaction is usually just go to hive tech instead. How should I practice incorporating infestor play, both in terms of actually getting them in a game and learning how to use fungal growth and neural parasite? This applies to overseers as well, using changlings and so on just seems like an apm sink that I don't usually have to spare.



As a (pretty long) side note, I made a strategy forum thread a bit back on the zvz build (it's that instead spending 250 min and 100 gas on a queen and ling speed as soon as your pool finishes, getting a lair and a spine crawler) I use. The general response in the thread was people figuring that they could break it using whatever they usually do without actually thinking about it in action. Of course, that just made me want to make it actually viable. I don't have a practice partner, so if you have any idea about a couple things, it would really help me in beating the build out.

First of all, the normal build consists of throwing down 4 spines while your lair is building as your only defense. 4 well positioned spines withstands the majority of busts (4 with a 5th and 6th building withstands almost all of them), but naturally that's weak to a hatch first build. Mutas will be out by the time a roach push builds up that can take 4 spines easily. The response to a hatch first build, I've found, is building a hatch at my expansion instead of three spines. So far, I haven't faced an opponent that went all-in aggression on a hatch first build though, so it'd be really nice if some one could verify whether 2 spines (or 1 spine at both main/nat) can withstand an aggressive 14 hatch or 14 pool/15 hatch, or whether I would need more to hold.

Secondly, 10 broodlords rape hydra/infestor or hydra/infestor/roach. So far, people responding that composition to my lair-before-queen into mutas, will do an initial push, in which I control well and wipe out with banelings, or I control poorly and get fungaled and lose. Crushing that first push, though, gives me enough time (since hydras are so expensive to build up and move off creep) to rush to greater spire and make 10 broodlords by the time a second push comes around (sacking a third also gives you more time). The question is, at what approximate hydra count/infestor count to do zerg players feel comfortable doing that first push against a mutaling zerg? If I could figure that out, it'd be easier to see if I could rush greater spire before the first push comes, or whether I should stick with trying to coordinate 3 groups of banelings running into his ball so they don't all get fungaled.

Zvendetta
Profile Joined July 2010
United States321 Posts
October 23 2010 21:38 GMT
#2
Do 10 BL's really rape hydra infester? It seems like 20 or so hydras could just b-line for the BL's, ignoring the broodlings, then when the infester plops down FG its GG for those lock downe BL's.

I personally prefer ultras over BL's, if I can ever reach hive tech in ZvZ, they steam roll over roach hydra comps, which are big in ZvZ, and they work especially well against infester play since they can run through FG (and they can't get NP, but thats never really option in ZvZ)

Blog was very interesting, best of luck in future tournaments.

As a final note, infesters are the best unit in ZvT. They can lock down drop harass, decimate bioballs, and even support against mass thors which are a big problem. You are required to build an infestation pit to even get hive, so the time to get them is before you even consider ultras/BL's.
You should probably put that first 150 gas into pathogen glands instead of hive- the extra energy is absolutely crucial.
"Its as if I can see the gears of the Eternal Alchemy spinning before, and I can almost reach out and turn them with my hands."
Vanka
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
China1336 Posts
October 23 2010 23:09 GMT
#3
On October 24 2010 06:38 Zvendetta wrote:
Do 10 BL's really rape hydra infester? It seems like 20 or so hydras could just b-line for the BL's, ignoring the broodlings, then when the infester plops down FG its GG for those lock downe BL's.

I personally prefer ultras over BL's, if I can ever reach hive tech in ZvZ, they steam roll over roach hydra comps, which are big in ZvZ, and they work especially well against infester play since they can run through FG (and they can't get NP, but thats never really option in ZvZ)

Blog was very interesting, best of luck in future tournaments.

As a final note, infesters are the best unit in ZvT. They can lock down drop harass, decimate bioballs, and even support against mass thors which are a big problem. You are required to build an infestation pit to even get hive, so the time to get them is before you even consider ultras/BL's.
You should probably put that first 150 gas into pathogen glands instead of hive- the extra energy is absolutely crucial.


Thanks!

The thing is, the build I do relies on early spire and spire upgrades, so it's easier to transition into broodlords that are already 1-1 than getting two evos late into the game. I was somewhat misleading when I just said 10 broodlords, because it's much more like 10 broodlords + your leftover mutas + 40 something lings. With the lings, it's impossible to ignore the broodlings, because you can't really target fire to distinguish the two, and if he ends up fungal growthing the lings and mutas, then they just tank for the broodlords anyway.
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
October 23 2010 23:19 GMT
#4
It's those kind of mind blocks with the spellcasters as an example that are keeping you from becoming a better player. Too many people think nowadays. Just play play play and once you have the basics done without having to think about them that's when you actually start thinking about other shit.. Besides, spellcasters really are not hard to control, 90% people (even pros) from what I"ve seen just hotkey them to their main army, cast some shit, and let them go to the front and die. Hotkeying them to a seperate group and clicking 1 click 2 click ( + 3 click perhaps) may solve the issue, and I suggest that since you are trying to learn new habits that you always group your armies in various control groups. Either say zealot/stalker sentry collossus or just part 1 of army part 2 of army (part 3 of army) spellcasters (for flanking and such)
Still, I suggest you do not theorycraft. When you try to get good at something you don't nitpick the hardest/most tiny stuff, you always focus on the basics. Good luck.
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL Team Wars
21:30
Round 5
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
ZZZero.O34
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 253
Livibee 107
Vindicta 42
ProTech36
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2666
Calm 2292
Shuttle 471
Larva 424
Mini 316
EffOrt 208
sSak 75
TY 71
Aegong 36
ZZZero.O 34
League of Legends
Reynor92
Counter-Strike
fl0m4283
Stewie2K315
byalli214
Super Smash Bros
PPMD108
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu427
Other Games
tarik_tv8312
summit1g5880
Grubby2462
JuggernautJason89
Mew2King61
shahzam0
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 123
• musti20045 43
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 42
• HerbMon 26
• Pr0nogo 9
• Eskiya23 8
• iopq 6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21840
• WagamamaTV326
League of Legends
• TFBlade959
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur271
Other Games
• imaqtpie1420
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 12m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
12h 12m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 2h
LiuLi Cup
1d 13h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
OSC
3 days
MaNa vs SHIN
SKillous vs ShoWTimE
Bunny vs TBD
Cham vs TBD
RSL Revival
3 days
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
BSL Team Wars
3 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
GuMiho vs Cham
ByuN vs TriGGeR
Cosmonarchy
4 days
TriGGeR vs YoungYakov
YoungYakov vs HonMonO
HonMonO vs TriGGeR
[BSL 2025] Weekly
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Cure vs Bunny
Creator vs Zoun
BSL Team Wars
5 days
Team Hawk vs Team Sziky
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS1
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
Maestros of the Game
Sisters' Call Cup
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

LASL Season 20
2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
EC S1
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
Skyesports Masters 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.