• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:10
CEST 09:10
KST 16:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-62PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)8Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE14Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b8IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly5
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 1/8 Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b
Tourneys
SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-6 PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion BW General Discussion BW Drama: Terror's Debt Incident + C9 disbanding BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Making an Online Broodwar Manager Game
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS Escore Tournament - Season 3 2v2v2v2 Tournament
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation PvT advise for noobs
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
What is a Gamer?
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10211 users

ZvT Rant

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 21 2010 07:47 GMT
#1
I've reached 800 points or so in diamond, which makes me top 500 in NA. I can't seem to get higher though because of my Brood War C- level mechanics. Posting here because the thread's probably going to get closed in strategy.

At any rate, whenever I'm up against Protoss and I lose, I can figure out why I lost and learn from there. For example, a few games ago, I lost to an early stalker zealot push because it came before the 4 warpgate timing I'm used to. Cool, I'll scout that a bit better and maybe add a sunken at my nat earlier. Early pheonix into chargelots? Maybe I should get spores up if I see a stargate. Everything's pretty logical and I can see how I can improve in ZvP.

But ZvT holy shit, that's a whole different story. Terran just has RIDICULOUS amount of options in the early game. Take this situation for example. Actually happened.

Steppes of war, I early drone scout in case of a reaper rush. I see nothing unusual, I send drone back to my base to mine. I open with pool, then hatch. He tries bunker rush, I scout it and he salvages just before I can kill it. No worries, I'm on 2 base to 1.

Now what? I scout his wallin with a zergling, see tech lab on barracks, see factory and a couple of marines. What the hell is he doing? Delayed reapers into mech? Maybe going for Banshees. Thor drop? I don't have a clue. I sacrifice an overlord to get a scout in, see a starport but by that point, I've already gotten ling speed against possible hellions and I have a roach warren in case any mass reapers comes along. My lair is really delayed so I try to catch up by adding an evolution chamber and maybe making a spore at each base and pumping a few more drones.

Then WTF A DOZEN MARINES AND FOUR HELLIONS COME RUNNING TO MY BASE! I have 4 lings, not nearly enough larva and I can't do **** against it. I type gg shortly afterwards.

Point is, Terran just has a ridiculous amount of options they can do and Zerg can't respond in time. To compensate for everything a Terran can do, I have to make:

1. Fast lair
2. Fast ling speed
3. Fast roach warren
4. Fast expo
5. Have enough army NOT TO DIE IMMEDIETELY

Tell me that is fair. Proposed balance changes, maybe shorten the time to make a spine crawler BY HALF AT LEAST! Make ling speed cheaper, roach warren cheaper, hell make it so Zerg can at least figure out what the Terran is doing before lair tech. Playing blind is no fun at all and it's just stupid what Zerg has to do to stay alive. Sure, weaken the later game if you need to BUT MAKE IT SO ZERG CAN STAY ALIVE PAST 8 MINUTES!

ModernAgeShaman
Profile Joined January 2008
Norway484 Posts
August 21 2010 08:03 GMT
#2
I find delaying your lair while powering economy and getting 4-6 queens is a good bet, also putting down 3 crawlers and getting some roaches is a good safe way to play blind. the queens make fast work of banshees (although if he keeps massing them you'll need hydras and overseer possibly, but that would take him a lot more time and therefore you can easily have lairtech by then without rushing for it). note that you don't really need speedlings if you get a lot of queens like this as they are very capable of holding off reapers by themselves (if he masses them throw a few roaches to defend and don't forget transfuse, it's also very important to spread the creep fast and far, the earlier the better). queens are very durable and I think the answer to a lot of the zerg problems can be solved by more queens.
anyway, doing this you don't need a fast lair. you don't need fast ling speed. you don't need a fast roach warren. you can however expo and power your economy before you try to tech to 4 things at once and rape your income.
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-21 08:18:21
August 21 2010 08:08 GMT
#3
Safe, one base play into expand is the answer, imo.

I've been using one base mutas and one base roach, and I've probably won 18 of my last 20 ZvTs.

783 Diamond right now.

Edit: Also, ohai bowman ; )
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
August 21 2010 08:59 GMT
#4
Ur right they do have alot of options
However i got some questions
Did you have some early spine crawlers just in case?
Did your ovi die from just a couple marines and he hiding rest?

kaleidoscope
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore2887 Posts
August 21 2010 09:24 GMT
#5
On August 21 2010 17:59 Tabbris wrote:
Ur right they do have alot of options
However i got some questions
Did you have some early spine crawlers just in case?
Did your ovi die from just a couple marines and he hiding rest?



precisely, it just takes a couple of marines and u can prevent the OL from diving into ur base to scout.. and also knowing the positioning and the angle where the initial OL comes in, you can hide the fact that you may take 2 gas; u can place ur hidden tech.. and even scouting a starport with tech lab can be different strategies.. the key is not to just know the tech, and also the number of buildings he commited to (1fac/starport is different from 2-3 facs/starport)
대지따라 돌린게 시간이다.. 흘러가고 돌아오지도 않고..
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4839 Posts
August 21 2010 09:38 GMT
#6
In Broodwar, if you don't tech to mutalisk quickly, Terran has tons of crazy options against you. It sounds like the same is true for SC2.
My strategy is to fork people.
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
August 21 2010 09:56 GMT
#7
Thors are way too good vs mutas. 1 thor and some marine support takes out 67244 mutas, its ridiculous
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4839 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-21 10:05:51
August 21 2010 10:05 GMT
#8
Marine/Valkyrie was pretty sick against mutalisk too (and Science Vessels were ridiculous, once they were up). The presence of mutalisk will still drastically reduce the opponent's options and force him to build defenses.
My strategy is to fork people.
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-21 10:38:33
August 21 2010 10:37 GMT
#9
On August 21 2010 19:05 Severedevil wrote:
Marine/Valkyrie was pretty sick against mutalisk too (and Science Vessels were ridiculous, once they were up). The presence of mutalisk will still drastically reduce the opponent's options and force him to build defenses.


It won't though, mutas just suck royally vs thors and turrets. There so easy to shut down its a joke. As for the Sc1 marine / valk thing, perhaps u need to review what mutas role is in ZvT
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
Sentenal
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States12398 Posts
August 21 2010 13:16 GMT
#10
It feels like that in PvT too. Just not to that extreme, but its still incredibly frustrating.
"Apparently, Sentenal is a paragon of friendship and tolerance. " - Ech0ne
mesohawny
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada193 Posts
August 21 2010 13:41 GMT
#11
ZvT sucks... we need bigger maps so we can actually get spines up and build lings in time to counter those kind of garbage strats.

is it is right now, it takes terran 25-30 seconds to get to your base on msot maps.... spines take 50 seconds to put up.... looooovely.
love you long time
sva
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States749 Posts
August 21 2010 21:15 GMT
#12
If you spread your muta's out against Thor's muta's actually gain the advantage, but if you clump them up the Thor is better.

Keep in mind that Thor's are great because of splash damage, spreading muta's cuts damage down significantly.

I agree that Terran has more options then zerg does early game, but I don't think it's what people make it out to be.
Megalisk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States6095 Posts
August 21 2010 21:28 GMT
#13
On August 21 2010 19:05 Severedevil wrote:
Marine/Valkyrie was pretty sick against mutalisk too (and Science Vessels were ridiculous, once they were up). The presence of mutalisk will still drastically reduce the opponent's options and force him to build defenses.


Mutas role in sc1 were 99% for harassing ands delaying his push so that you can safely get to 3rd gas and hive, not as head to head combat units.
Tear stained american saints and dirty guitar dreams across a universe of desert and blue sky , gas station coffee love letters and two dollar pistol kisses from thirty five dollar hotel room stationary .
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Afreeca Starleague
04:00
Qualifiers Day 1
Afreeca ASL 2958
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 160
FoxeR 62
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 5614
Zeus 841
Leta 545
Dewaltoss 68
Terrorterran 32
ZergMaN 15
League of Legends
JimRising 602
Counter-Strike
summit1g8058
Other Games
WinterStarcraft582
C9.Mang0344
ceh9316
Happy257
ROOTCatZ113
RuFF_SC268
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick905
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 150
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2277
League of Legends
• Stunt486
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
1h 50m
ByuN vs SHIN
Solar vs Lambo
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3h 50m
Afreeca Starleague
20h 50m
RSL Revival
1d 1h
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 4h
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W5
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
RSL Revival: Season 6
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026

Upcoming

ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W6
Escore Tournament S3: W7
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSLAN 4
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.