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If you are a fan of Korean BW, you probably have opinions about some of its players. Maybe you have even argued about them! I am one such person. But while from time to time we may have different evaluations of specific players and that is cool, sometimes people use ranking systems in ways that make me mad:
Flash has been coming off a tough month, judging from his TL Power Rank position. He had a lot to prove in this game. With his winrate under 80%, a convincing win over an S-class zerg was exactly what he needed to assuage the fears of his fans. Zero, on the other hand, is competing for the title of Woongjin Stars ace (more on this later).
Zero is not S-class! Grahhhhhh. Given such recent debate on the subject, I want to give my 3 cents (more cents than other people give HA) on the subject.
The basic ranking system goes S, A, B, C, D, F with whatever plussed, minuses, and slashes you want thrown in and roughly, S>A>B>C>D>F. The exact meaning of each tier is pretty subjective with one exception: the S-Class is special. I couldn't find the origin of this type of ranking system but I did find this:
The name "S-Class" derives from the German word "Sonderklasse" of which "S-Class" is an abbreviation. Sonderklasse means "special class" (or rather: "In a class of its own")
S-class is not just the best N of something for some value of N. It signifies a near-transcendence of the ranking system. If a BW player is S class they ought to be the unquestioned favorite against any other non-S class player, if a fighting game character is S class they ought to have a favorable matchup against almost every other character in the game, etc. Given this definition it is clear that currently the only players who are S-class are  Flash and  Jaedong.
And because I couldn't resist stirring up some passionate internet arguments, here is how I rank the first TLPD page of players:
S
Flash, Jaedong
A+/A:Fantasy,  Stork, Sea, EffOrt, Leta, Bisu
A-/B+:Light, ZerO, Kal, free, HiyA, JangBi, BeSt
B:Stats, RorO, Snow, BaBy, Kwanro, fOrGG, Calm, Midas, Violet
B-/C+:Horang2, Pure, great, Movie, sKyHigh, Shine, Action, Iris
C:Classic, Neo.G_Soulkey, s2, Hydra, Tempest
D:July
F:Hyuk (lol j/k; Hyuk isn't on the first page of players in TLPD)
If you feel a ranking is too high or too low that might be because I ranked that player by how they're playing right now rather than their overall potential (e.g. Calm, Baby). Also if a player is good/bad at one matchup but bad/good at the other two, I will probably use the two regular matchups rather than the one anomaly (e.g. Skyhigh). It makes sense to talk about rankings within specific matchups or to differentiate between potential and current performance, but I am too lazy to do those things. Also in general, the higher up the ranking the more confident I am in that ranking.
If you want to fight me, bring it >
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Isn't a person of any class by definition the unquestioned favourite over anyone of any class below him?
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On August 10 2010 04:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Isn't a person of any class by definition the unquestioned favourite over anyone of any class below him?
No. That would only work if everyone was equally skilled at every matchup.
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Your ranking looks like how I would have ranked these guys a year ago... (barring July)
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I don't understand. Why is your ranking system authoritative? I happen to think that ZerO is a fantastic player mechanically who often shows flashes of creative genius. Who is to say that he is not an S-Class player? Well, besides you, I guess.
The term S-class, I am sure, does not come from Mercedes Benz. In Korean interviews and articles, the term has been used to describe many more players than the ones at the very top. Leta, I specifically remember, is an example.
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wooooh....shine b-/c+???
The only thing that this guy has done that is impressive is reach the final four of the of a starleague. in my opinion he should be moved down to the c class.
if you rank a person by how he is playing right now, best should be dropped down one spot. he has been tearing it up in the proleague but in the individual leagues he has not been doing so well. Leta seems like a tossup but im thinking that he's fine where he is.
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So three time OSL champion is D-class player  ?
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On August 10 2010 04:16 Mikami_ wrote:So three time OSL champion is D-class player ?
he's basing them on how they're playing right now.
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Sonderklasse would be more like an euphemism for retards or other out of the norm people. Like Special Olympics you know?
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Your list is so bad it's not even worth arguing over...
Action and Iris at B-? That's just stupid. July is king, putting him at D is blasphemy.
Oh... and Bisu isn't S Class either? Wtf kid...
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No, actually there is only two classes you need to know about: R & O
O of course meaning others.
I´ve always wondered why there isn´t any other abbreviations to otherwise describe players.
Like: Horang2 B-/C meaning he´s cheesy or Rock D/Ca meaning he goes carriers everytime.
That way not even the newcomers would ever have to watch anything but what they want.
Now how cool would that be?
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On August 10 2010 04:13 motbob wrote:
I don't understand. Why is your ranking system authoritative?
I am not claiming that my rankings are authoritative. I also don't have any real authority with regard to the exact definition of S-Class. However, if we are at the point where ZerO is considered S-Class then the term has lost most of its meaning.
I happen to think that ZerO is a fantastic player mechanically who often shows flashes of creative genius. Who is to say that he is not an S-Class player? Well, besides you, I guess.
And I would agree with you that ZerO is a good player, but he is not S-Class because Jaedong and Flash are both favored against him.
The term S-class, I am sure, does not come from Mercedes Benz.
I am pretty sure of that too, but google couldn't give an answer either way.
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On August 10 2010 04:11 Saracen wrote:
Your ranking looks like how I would have ranked these guys a year ago... (barring July)
I figured I would have a tendency to do that. Specifically what do you disagree with?
edit: I would guess Bisu and Jangbi at least.
Yes, I am ranking by current and not historical. Obviously July used to kick some major ass, but right now he's being eliminated from leagues by SungEun and Britney. At some point in the past Bisu or Stork or whoever may have been S-Class but right now that is Flash and Jaedong, period.
edit: The main point of this post was supposed to be the S-Class part, not the ranking part, and that ranking is obviously not perfectly accurate.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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On August 10 2010 04:15 Housemd wrote:if you rank a person by how he is playing right now, best should be dropped down one spot. he has been tearing it up in the proleague but in the individual leagues he has not been doing so well.
This is another thing: People overvalue starleague performance when it comes to ranking. The way they work (i.e. single elimination bracket structure) is not conducive to ranking by skill.
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Agree completely that S-class is way overused nowadays. It used to mean someone really outstanding, now people seem to use it to describe anyone who's better than your average A-teamer.
Though I guess it's in the nature of words that their meanings change so maybe it's not something to fret over.
Personally though, I'll continue to refuse to call anyone not named flash or jaedong S-class =p
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I agree with your definition of S Class and I believe that only Flash and Jaedong are S class. A is typically the highest but S is just that much better!
Of course some of your rankings I must disagree with though...
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If you're rating by current form Bisu should be in the same class as Stats and Jangbi probably no higher than Pure. Also either Kal or Effort's ranking doesn't make sense. If you're looking at the last 2 month Effort's is justified, if you're looking at 9-12 month Kal's is, but it can't be both.
I'd say anyone who could be competitive against the top players in Bo5s at their best is S class. That would be Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Effort, Leta and Sea. fOrgg doesn't count because even though he beat Jaedong and Flash it's unlikely that he'll ever play at that level again (and even if he did it would probably no longer be enough). For the same reason I wouldn't rate Julyzerg very high either.
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On August 10 2010 04:34 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 04:15 Housemd wrote:if you rank a person by how he is playing right now, best should be dropped down one spot. he has been tearing it up in the proleague but in the individual leagues he has not been doing so well. This is another thing: People overvalue starleague performance when it comes to ranking. The way they work (i.e. single elimination bracket structure) is not conducive to ranking by skill.
Uhm....actually starleague performance is really important. In proleague you usually get two chances a week to improve your record, if you do not play the ace match (which best usually does not do) So you actually have more chances to win (you also have higher chances to play against players that are lower levels that you).
in the osl and msl, you get players that are the same level than you and/or better than you. However, you will most likely meet these players in the ro16 onwards. Before that, the caliber of your opponents are low level. Think about that. If you lose games to lower level opponents, it just shows that you suck. In single elimination the stakes are raised and playing on a higher level and winning shows the true caliber of a player.
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I guess BW and fighting games use the same terminology for different things. I still think the fighting game definition is more useful.
However I would make an even broader claim: that the "age of heroes" has returned:
Hana Daetoo MSL - Flash and Jaedong meet in the finals.
Korean Air OSL S1 - Jaedong eliminated by Baby (he only had to play in the Ro36 because he got matched up against Flash in the previous OSL's Ro8, which was bullshit), Flash chokes to Effort in the finals.
NATE MSL - Flash and Jaedong meet in the finals.
EVER2009 OSL - Flash and Jaedong meet in the quarterfinals and the winner goes on to win the league.
This season is looking like more of the same. The only reason it's not obvious is that there's two heroes rather than just one.
A quote from that very article:
The surge of brilliant mechanical and strategical players due to the rise in professionalism in Starcraft has lead to the playing field to be leveled. The fundamental skills of A class gamers compares favourably to the skills of the S class which shows that the gap is becoming smaller and smaller between the progamers. Nowadays you can find brilliant skills from players who have fewer than ten televised games rather than just the top three gamers of the time before Savior. But the reason there is still an S class despite the closing skill gap, is that the S Class have a superior mental state. This idea that mental states defined winning semis and finals has trickled down into every single game. Maintaining the winning mindset is the key to the S-Class’s success.
Sounds like a pretty good description of Flash and Jaedong to me.
There's also their ~70% winrates (Flash 71.24%, Jaedong 68.41%) compared to their closest competitors of Fantasy (60.24%), Sea (61.20%), Effort (61.92%), Leta (60.76%), Stork (60.71%), and Bisu (63.34%). Winning percentage isn't necessarily the best measurement here, so let's check Elo:
The gap from Flash to Jaedong is 38.
The gap from Jaedong to fantasy is 45. There are 3 players (Sea, Effort, free) within 45 Elo of fantasy.
The gap from Flash to fantasy is 83. There are 10 players within 83 Elo of fantasy (Sea, Effort, free, Leta, Light, Stork, Bisu, Roro, Zero, Best).
Flash and Jaedong are still capable of losing, but so were the old heroes.
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On August 10 2010 05:04 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 04:34 Crunchums wrote:On August 10 2010 04:15 Housemd wrote:if you rank a person by how he is playing right now, best should be dropped down one spot. he has been tearing it up in the proleague but in the individual leagues he has not been doing so well. This is another thing: People overvalue starleague performance when it comes to ranking. The way they work (i.e. single elimination bracket structure) is not conducive to ranking by skill. Uhm....actually starleague performance is really important. In proleague you usually get two chances a week to improve your record, if you do not play the ace match (which best usually does not do) So you actually have more chances to win (you also have higher chances to play against players that are lower levels that you). in the osl and msl, you get players that are the same level than you and/or better than you. However, you will most likely meet these players in the ro16 onwards. Before that, the caliber of your opponents are low level. Think about that. If you lose games to lower level opponents, it just shows that you suck. In single elimination the stakes are raised and playing on a higher level and winning shows the true caliber of a player.
The problem is that the order you play other players in is pretty fluky. Say you run round robin Bo3's with every player from the Ro36 (not realistic obv) for the first Korean Air OSL. Maybe Jaedong still loses to Baby, but I'd imagine he ends up rank higher than he would if you rank the players based on how early they got eliminated. Why then, are you punishing Jaedong for having played Baby in the Ro36 instead of the Ro8 or the Ro4? Whenever a player makes it far into an individual league everyone takes that as an indicator that they are kicking major ass but if I set up a Ro16 group of Hyuk, Shine, Movie, Skyhigh two of those players are going to make it into the Ro8 but that is not very impressive. There's certainly a correlation between progressing in individual leagues and ranking because you're not going to do it unless you win some games, but people like to strip away the context. Games in starleagues should be treated just like any other game.
Ranking players is a difficult problem because we have very few data points and BW is a volatile game of hidden information.
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Yeah, I agree that Jaedong and Flash should be the ONLY s-class players as of right now
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I always think that S-Class are players that is favorite against everyone else except against other S-Class (50-50).
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Calgary25998 Posts
I actually agree with your definition of S Class; I'm happy because it's hard to define but you did it well. I think it was really stupid to rate the progamers in your OP, because you just shifted the discussion from what S actually is to why people disagree with your subjective rankings.
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EPT
