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I am not one to really bump old threads, so I decided to blog this!
this is in reply to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221
I agree with many of the things that have been said in this thread. I agree with Nazgul in stating "it will happen, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when". I also agree with the last two good responses that have stated that the American Culture as a whole has not really been accommodating to having professional gaming on television.
My question to you all on teamliquid now is this: Will Starcraft 2 even the playing field?
I believe it will!
Factual points and Question:
1) SC2 has already been added by the MLG, and they ran wonderful king-of-the-hill style showmatches, and will now be having it at circuit events. This is a step in the right direction, and one that is overdue! This will polevault it to the next level, like having it on ESPN. America is ready to embrace progaming. Is it still to enthralled with Football, Basketball, and Baseball, but not nearly as much as it used to be.
2) Blizzard's legal action with KeSPA makes me believe that they are bitter about the amount of money that was made off of their game. I'm sure they're happy with WoW, but they would rather have two cash cows than one. They will not make the same mistake they made with SC1 on SC2.
3) The World Cup. The World Cup?!, you ask? Yes. The World Cup. The World Cup is proof to me that America is "ready for something new"
For me it is safe to write off SC1, but I believe with SC2 Americans/Europeans may reach the level of Koreans.
 
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I sure hope so! Starcraft 2 could def be one to start it off. It won't be like in korea though: dominated by one game. Shooters will always be a popular choice.
I love that link btw. TL was a very different place. Why are we all reading threads from 2002 tho? Reminds me of when I was a leader in a TF2 clan. At one point I decided to leave to concentrate on school work, I made a huge sappy post about how much I loved the clan blah blah blah. I rejoined months later, and years after that recruits would make fun of me about it, even tho it was 30 pages back in forum archives :p
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Thanks Bill Murray I now feel old after having clicked on that link.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
2v2 let's go Bill.
BW not SCII though yay.
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Gaming is so main stream these days, at least over here, that I think future international E-sports developing seems almost inevitable.
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The world cup is hardly indicative of much... it's not like football/soccer isn't already pretty big in the US - obviously a bit of a fringe thing, but you've had professional leagues and attendances in the tens of thousands for every game for decades. I wouldn't call the WC "something new" at all; it's just a country that already kind of sort of cares a little bit about soccer ooing and aahing over the biggest soccer event once every 4 years.
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It will never become mainstream in America. America has been taught to hate games because they're violent and kids will go out and shoot their friends if they play them. We're not like the east, we're terrified of everything businessmen who see opportunities to make money/are afraid of losing business decide is bad.
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I think Starcraft will be "bigger" in NA and europe with the launch of star2 because of the casuals and all saying like "hey I have 54745746 more achievement points then you, this game is awesome" and with the graphics it has more of a chance then BW did, not saying BW wasn't good but Starcraft 2 seems like a more obvious choice.
I don't think NA and europe will be as big (although I wish) as Korea (obvious) but I think there will be alot more tournaments and this game has alot more potential then BW did. 2 more expansions to come, maybe more? who knows.
What Starcraft 2 needs now is LAN, Chat channels and x-realm play.. aswell as few other things like BW-esq. replays.
On August 02 2010 11:30 tfmdjeff wrote:
It will never become mainstream in America. America has been taught to hate games because they're violent and kids will go out and shoot their friends if they play them. We're not like the east, we're terrified of everything businessmen who see opportunities to make money/are afraid of losing business decide is bad.
^^
This..A lot of people from North America and Europe see video games as a "waste of time" if they don't game.
Although. I am surprised at the Tournaments so far, as for as online Starcraft 2 has more potential then anything I can think of.
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No. America might be ready to have fun, but if you're talking about international competition, we're still not there yet.
I mean, this is by no means targeting the American players that are already really good, I"m just talking about mainstream America in general.
Half of the people that I meet from America talking about Starcraft yell out ZERG RUSH. Either that or they say Protoss is imbalanced.
I think we're still stuck in our little bubble here. It's gonna take a while to pop it.
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is the MLG currently even CLOSE to being as big in the states as OGN/MBC Game are in Korea? I don't think so... (i really dont know but i really really doubt it since most people I know dont know wtf MLG is).
RTS will never be as big in the states are other genres. it's just too complicated for most americans. MLG is only still going because halo has a huge audience even though it's an awful spectator sport because it's halo.
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I agree with Nazgul in stating "it will happen, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when".
I hope the answer to the 8 year old question is, SOON. 
Maybe SC2 will get a Madden Nation style TV shows.
Or maybe an internet channel will ride to the top with progaming. (GOM?)
But right now it seems like scrabble, magic and the mustard belt all get better coverage than e-sports.
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On August 02 2010 12:17 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +I agree with Nazgul in stating "it will happen, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when". I hope the answer to the 8 year old question is, SOON.
lets hope that isnt Blizzards version of SOON...where SOON lasts forever and a few years can = SOON  all in all, the wait was worth it lol
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On August 02 2010 12:01 Ideas wrote:
RTS will never be as big in the states are other genres. it's just too complicated for most americans. MLG is only still going because halo has a huge audience even though it's an awful spectator sport because it's halo.
I don't necessarily agree with this statement. American's like some of the more (comparatively) complicated sports - Baseball (ripe with tons of statistics, as well as different approaches to the plate/different pitches in different situations/situational baserunning/slow pacing) and American football (the whole "strategy" behind the game, different forms of defense, offensive schemes, etc etc).
I don't think the issue is the "complexity" behind RTS's, I think the issue is the acceptance of videogames into mainstream society in America. Generally, gaming is frowned upon.
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On August 02 2010 14:16 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 12:01 Ideas wrote:
RTS will never be as big in the states are other genres. it's just too complicated for most americans. MLG is only still going because halo has a huge audience even though it's an awful spectator sport because it's halo. I don't necessarily agree with this statement. American's like some of the more (comparatively) complicated sports - Baseball (ripe with tons of statistics, as well as different approaches to the plate/different pitches in different situations/situational baserunning/slow pacing) and American football (the whole "strategy" behind the game, different forms of defense, offensive schemes, etc etc). I don't think the issue is the "complexity" behind RTS's, I think the issue is the acceptance of videogames into mainstream society in America. Generally, gaming is frowned upon.
you are right about videogames just not being accepted into mainstream yet (at least in a positive way), but i think most of those sports are far simplar to understand than starcraft (baseball = hit the ball and run, basketball = get ball in basket, football = get ball to the endzone). although they are a lot more complicated than that in reality, they are simple enough that many people can enjoy them without knowing all the intricacies (lots of people watch the superbowl every year but dont know all the positions or fouls etc). also it's nearly impossible for a sport to just pick up and get popular. what was the last mainstream sport to pickup? football? and that was a long fucking time ago lol. most sports today are popular because it's just tradition that people learn and play these sports when theyre young.
although some videogames are widely accepted into pop culture, they are soooo much more simple and easier to understand than starcraft (halo, CoD, the sims, tetris, mario).
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On August 02 2010 15:06 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 14:16 Comeh wrote:On August 02 2010 12:01 Ideas wrote:
RTS will never be as big in the states are other genres. it's just too complicated for most americans. MLG is only still going because halo has a huge audience even though it's an awful spectator sport because it's halo. I don't necessarily agree with this statement. American's like some of the more (comparatively) complicated sports - Baseball (ripe with tons of statistics, as well as different approaches to the plate/different pitches in different situations/situational baserunning/slow pacing) and American football (the whole "strategy" behind the game, different forms of defense, offensive schemes, etc etc). I don't think the issue is the "complexity" behind RTS's, I think the issue is the acceptance of videogames into mainstream society in America. Generally, gaming is frowned upon. you are right about videogames just not being accepted into mainstream yet (at least in a positive way), but i think most of those sports are far simplar to understand than starcraft (baseball = hit the ball and run, basketball = get ball in basket, football = get ball to the endzone). although they are a lot more complicated than that in reality, they are simple enough that many people can enjoy them without knowing all the intricacies (lots of people watch the superbowl every year but dont know all the positions or fouls etc). also it's nearly impossible for a sport to just pick up and get popular. what was the last mainstream sport to pickup? football? and that was a long fucking time ago lol. most sports today are popular because it's just tradition that people learn and play these sports when theyre young. although some videogames are widely accepted into pop culture, they are soooo much more simple and easier to understand than starcraft (halo, CoD, the sims, tetris, mario).
By that same reasoning Starcraft just as simple as 'kill the other guy?' Plenty of people enjoy Starcraft without understanding any intricacies of the game. Wasn't it Husky (or HD) who once said that they got PMs from people who don't even play Starcraft saying that they enjoyed their videos? That in some ways is part of the entertainment value of Starcraft - you might not have a clue what's going on, but you know that when you see a battle, shit dying, the explosions, and yes, the commentators screaming make it exciting.
We're almost at the point where the first 'gaming' generation is getting to adulthood, aren't we? I've always thought of that as sort of a prerequisite for the formation of formal play with teams and leagues. I guess this wasn't the case for Broodwar and the Korean leagues, but it's my understanding that it was helped along by the economic recession of the time (oh wait). Now is finally they time when the people running startups and other small businesses can look back and say, 'oh yeah, I remember playing on my playstation' or whatever. When I was little my friend got a nintendo 64 and we'd play fifa all day long, pausing only to well, play real soccer. After like an hour we'd realize we couldn't do half the stuff we could do in the game, so we'd go back to the n64. It's those kinds of memories that inspire people to pursue their love of games as a profession. Those kinds of people didn't exist until recently though.
It's true that a large portion of America probably thinks of gaming as an activity for losers or nerds or geeks (I doubt they care about the distinction). The thing is, that a large portion of America also hates stuff like rap, or this metrosexual movement, and a ton of other crap. I have to admit that I'm not in a position to speak for the average american, but there's so much hate for all kinds of groups, sometimes it seems like gamers are just another one of these movements. As long as they're big enough, the community is ready to take steps toward professional gaming in the US.
Starcraft 2 reached a ton of people. I had a photo on flickr that wasn't supposed to be public and somehow was. It was of the iccup games list, nothing really special. Then a few days ago some random dude comments on it saying, 'Oh yeah! The old battlenet! I used to play on that and beat newbies!' It was kind of creepy actually, but I think it goes to show how the release brought back some old memories in so many americans that don't really consider themselves gamers. On release day my facebook newsfeed was covered with complaints about how Starcraft 2 hadn't come in the mail yet - complaints from people I never would've guessed played, much less cared about Starcraft 2.
I don't think we're going to see a Starcraft 2 OSL in the US tomorrow. It's going to take a while. I agree it won't be easy. But I mean, if there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that someone is going to give it a go. If there's money to be made, some random corporation will take a flyer on it. But make no mistake, things can pick up fast in the US given the right exposure. Remember when the World Series of Poker was just random day-time television on ESPN? WSOP has been around since like, the 1970s. But when I saw Chris Moneymaker go all-in on that stone cold bluff vs Sam Farha, I was hooked (maybe I was a little late to the party, but the point still stands). I'm confident Starcraft 2 will have those moments as well. Maybe poker is different because of the money-making potential. That's certainly a possibility. But there's probably some sort of deeper similarity between the two.
Anyway, I'm excited that MLG has added Starcraft 2 to their lineup. Maybe it goes somewhere, maybe it doesn't, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.
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what was the last mainstream sport to pickup?
Poker has really taken off since 2003.
So much so that it possibly stifled the growth of e-sports.
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On August 02 2010 19:45 Base wrote:
When I was little my friend got a nintendo 64 and we'd play fifa all day long, pausing only to well, play real soccer. After like an hour we'd realize we couldn't do half the stuff we could do in the game, so we'd go back to the n64. It's those kinds of memories that inspire people to pursue their love of games as a profession.
On August 02 2010 19:45 Base wrote:
It's true that a large portion of America probably thinks of gaming as an activity for losers or nerds or geeks (I doubt they care about the distinction).
I can't imagine why anyone would think that...
you chose to play virtual soccer because you think it takes less work and dedication than the real thing. That's just about the lamest reason for inspiration to pursue a video game career, and exactly why people have perceptions about gaming.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/news/StarCraft2_launch.jpg)
