SC2 already has the experience and the top-notch players, and yet it's still powerfully underwhelming. The issue is not with how much we can do in the coming years to develop the game even further, the issue is with the fundamentals of the game itself. It just doesn't have the same potential that BW had (and reached).
Sure, SC2 might be entertaining and exciting for the viewers. Sure, it might still be difficult, fun, and rewarding for the players. But it doesn't do it in the same way that BW did it for all the hardcore players.
It's lacking many things that BW has and instead has so many superfluous gadgets and gizmos that are just so meh.
Pardon me for being 'that guy' but how exactly do you know that? Like...any of it?
How do you know it doesn't have the same potential, or that it doesn't do it for all the 'hardcore' players? Like...you're speaking for a lot of people here, and I don't really know where you come off doing it. A number of vocal people have said they're not playing SC2, but there's a whole new lot coming to SC2 as well who are hard core gamers from other games like War3 and the like. And as for potential, how do you know? Have you tried every unit combo, every ability in every situation and tried units in various mechanical situations to tease out any extra uses? I doubt it. Just give the game time before you judge it and the community so broadly. It may well happen that it doesn't have the depth, but we have no way of knowing it yet. The game hasn't even been released.
I think he just means it doesn't have the potential to be as exciting, which I agree with. What mostly turns me off watching Sc2 is that its hardly impressive, mainly because its easier to pull the stuff off.
This makes my jaw drop but with smartcasting any competent player can replicate it in sc2
On July 22 2010 02:14 butchji wrote: Comparing StarCraft2 with StarCraft1 without BroodWar and any balancing would be more reasonable
Care to explain how exactly that makes sense?
Because it took like almost a decade to make BroodWar that perfect? Comparing it to a not even released game without its addons is just unfair.
How is it unfair? Blizzard has had this much time to perfect their game. It should be better than BW right off the bat. and TvZ aside, I'd argue that its definitely comparable to BW in terms of balance, so I dont know what you're getting at by saying it should be compared to sc without balancing. The balance in SC2 is fine. Thats not even the topic of discussion here. The thing is that the reason so many 'tense' moments happened in BW was because you had to struggle against the interface to do certain micro tricks, and that units and spells dealt ridiculous amounts of splash or AoE damage, or were ridiculous in some way or the other. Think about the most 'AAARGHHH' moments in BW, what were they? Lurkerling flanks, mnm micro against lurkers, reaver drops, well placed storms, swarms, I could go on, but anyone who has watched BW knows this. See a common theme? These are all situations that arise because of spells dealing incredible amounts of damage, or being plain out imbalanced (dark swarm, psionic storm, lets face it, those were insane) BW was balanced on the razors edge because everything was so insanely powerful. SC2 however is going the other way, maintaining balance by mellowing it down, understandable since you dont need to struggle against the interface (the other point) to cast spells and do micro. Spells cant be atrociously powerful because they are MUCH easier to cast now. As a result, see someone cast 8 storm? Meh who cares, a bronze player could do it. Do you see what I mean? This isnt a problem that can be solved by the wait and see approach
I think I would definitely think the same way if I was nerding StarCraft for the last decade 24/7 and have like 300 APM. For the casual gamer I think StarCraft 2 is more fun. Don't get me wrong I love BroodWar but all the "meeeeh, starcraft 2 sux so much" is so over the top - Don't get it why you have to tell that to everyone anyway? Just keep playing BroodWar and enjoy it calmly. Of course the pro scene will never reach the astonishment of BroodWar but it will succeed in other ways.
I think that all the top foreigners switched to SC2 because of : - all the sponsors opportunities and big cash prizes. I'm not saying it's wrong, most of them are still studying, or still young, and we all know young people need as much money as possible :D - the other part are good BW players but not top players, andt SC2 is giving them a second chance to be on top.
And once again, I find SC2 terrible to watch, I'd rather watch a curling game. Oh, btw, if you want to watch an amazing PvP with back and forth and incredible defenses, watch Pure vs Pusan from MBC vs Fox day3. You won't ever see that in a SC2 PvP + Show Spoiler +
On July 22 2010 02:14 butchji wrote: Comparing StarCraft2 with StarCraft1 without BroodWar and any balancing would be more reasonable
Care to explain how exactly that makes sense?
Because it took like almost a decade to make BroodWar that perfect? Comparing it to a not even released game without its addons is just unfair.
How is it unfair? Blizzard has had this much time to perfect their game. It should be better than BW right off the bat. and TvZ aside, I'd argue that its definitely comparable to BW in terms of balance, so I dont know what you're getting at by saying it should be compared to sc without balancing. The balance in SC2 is fine. Thats not even the topic of discussion here. The thing is that the reason so many 'tense' moments happened in BW was because you had to struggle against the interface to do certain micro tricks, and that units and spells dealt ridiculous amounts of splash or AoE damage, or were ridiculous in some way or the other. Think about the most 'AAARGHHH' moments in BW, what were they? Lurkerling flanks, mnm micro against lurkers, reaver drops, well placed storms, swarms, I could go on, but anyone who has watched BW knows this. See a common theme? These are all situations that arise because of spells dealing incredible amounts of damage, or being plain out imbalanced (dark swarm, psionic storm, lets face it, those were insane) BW was balanced on the razors edge because everything was so insanely powerful. SC2 however is going the other way, maintaining balance by mellowing it down, understandable since you dont need to struggle against the interface (the other point) to cast spells and do micro. Spells cant be atrociously powerful because they are MUCH easier to cast now. As a result, see someone cast 8 storm? Meh who cares, a bronze player could do it. Do you see what I mean? This isnt a problem that can be solved by the wait and see approach
I think I would definitely think the same way if I was nerding StarCraft for the last decade 24/7 and have like 300 APM. For the casual gamer I think StarCraft 2 is more fun. Don't get me wrong I love BroodWar but all the "meeeeh, starcraft 2 sux so much" is so over the top - Don't get it why you have to tell that to everyone anyway? Just keep playing BroodWar and enjoy it calmly. Of course the pro scene will never reach the astonishment of BroodWar but it will succeed in other ways.
I never said starcraft 2 sucks, I dont know why people keep saying I said things that I didnt I said I dont think it is as good as BW. In its own right its an amazingly balanced game, its fun as hell, that much is true, but people keep saying that certain things that were in BW will arise in sc2 that are not currently there. Im tired of arguing the same point, i've already explained why I think that wont happen, and i've already explained its an OPINION, i acknowledge theres a very good chance that im wrong, and I will play the game if it gets better thats 100% guaranteed. But right now SC2 should have taken the best points of BW, could have been better than BW, but its still not. Also,
I think I would definitely think the same way if I was nerding StarCraft for the last decade 24/7 and have like 300 APM
Im a D+ player with maybe 140ish apm. The reason I currently prefer BW over sc2, is that when I watch SC2, I am not excited. Interested, if the game is good and showing good builds and unit compositions, i think 'hey thats smart' but I never stare at the screen all bug eyed like i do when a reavers scarab is about to pick to either blow up or dud. Already many examples have been given, but simply put theres a lot more exciting and tense stuff in BW, that makes watching it fun beyond just learning from the games you watch. And when you do the stuff you saw progamers doing and you do it well, that gives you a feeling of 'fuck yeah' but in sc2, everyone can do everything. The things that set good players aside from the people who play once a week are not easily visible just like that.
On July 22 2010 02:14 butchji wrote: Comparing StarCraft2 with StarCraft1 without BroodWar and any balancing would be more reasonable
Care to explain how exactly that makes sense?
Because it took like almost a decade to make BroodWar that perfect? Comparing it to a not even released game without its addons is just unfair.
How is it unfair? Blizzard has had this much time to perfect their game. It should be better than BW right off the bat. and TvZ aside, I'd argue that its definitely comparable to BW in terms of balance, so I dont know what you're getting at by saying it should be compared to sc without balancing. The balance in SC2 is fine. Thats not even the topic of discussion here. The thing is that the reason so many 'tense' moments happened in BW was because you had to struggle against the interface to do certain micro tricks, and that units and spells dealt ridiculous amounts of splash or AoE damage, or were ridiculous in some way or the other. Think about the most 'AAARGHHH' moments in BW, what were they? Lurkerling flanks, mnm micro against lurkers, reaver drops, well placed storms, swarms, I could go on, but anyone who has watched BW knows this. See a common theme? These are all situations that arise because of spells dealing incredible amounts of damage, or being plain out imbalanced (dark swarm, psionic storm, lets face it, those were insane) BW was balanced on the razors edge because everything was so insanely powerful. SC2 however is going the other way, maintaining balance by mellowing it down, understandable since you dont need to struggle against the interface (the other point) to cast spells and do micro. Spells cant be atrociously powerful because they are MUCH easier to cast now. As a result, see someone cast 8 storm? Meh who cares, a bronze player could do it. Do you see what I mean? This isnt a problem that can be solved by the wait and see approach
Here is the thing. This is all on a POV. SC2 is better than BW right off the bat. The interface is better, the gameplay is smoother, the balance is better. What most here hate about it, is it doesn't have rediculous demands that make for exciting play. You don't see it because it is not a game being played by people who are paid to play it nonstop and have 12 years of strategy and build orders to follow. Of course you can argue that you already know what is happening with it and it will fail. Take a look at starcraft 1 from release day up until BW and tell me you knew it was a game that would have people playing it for money in a professional league.
BW beta was really stupid. Hello reavers doing 250 damage per shot and other stupid balance issues. Sc2 beta was really stupid at the start but it got better and better over a few months it is still not perfect in any means.This is 1/3 of sc2 we are seeing. They have 2 more expansions to add on it until we see the vision Blizzard had for it(Blizzard always has the vision of the final product years down the road)
I like both BW and SC2. BW will still be here SC2 will be coming and both should learn to live with each other.
Wait wait wait, you aren't seriously trying to tell me that SC2 is more balanced than Brood War, are you?
I know you neobowman! I recognise your name from BWMN, anyway.
I think everyone on TL who loves SC should really watch every OSL finals ever made. It really gives you an appreciation of just how much this game has evolved and been through, and WHY it is such a good game. It is not so simple as 'you can do this and this which doesn't happen in such and such a game.' It's the way it is constantly fresh. At every point in SC history people have felt 'okay, we've basically got things figured out' or 'SC is basically dead' and then someone completely changes everything. I was going to write my own long rant on this but... Yeah. I think you get such a greater appreciation of StarCraft if you've been around for awhile, or at least take the time to learn it's history.
Who cares if SC2 MIGHT become good? SC:BW already is. SC:BW is a legitimate sport... more legitimate than hockey or baseball or football if you ask me. SC2 is just a game. Sure, it COULD become a sport, but it seems to be trying to hard. Games should become sports on their own (by the will of the players and fans), not because Blizzard paid a lot of money. I think we're going to see SC2 rejected by a lot of people who find Blizzard's presence a little overwhelming.
On July 22 2010 14:25 Megalisk wrote: WHY DOES EVERYONG USE THE ARGUMENT "IT TOOK A DECADE TO MAKE BROODWAR PERFECT", PATCH 1.08 CAME OUT IN 2001. It was the last balance patch.
I think that BW has always been a great game, but that to say it has been the same since 2001 is absurd. Many glitches have completely changed the dynamic of this game, and the way maps are made has evolved and influenced play as well. Remember when July was the only Zerg who could really muta micro? Everyone became July after Shark brought knowledge of magic boxes out into the open, but before that you could basically hold off muta with like 2 turrets because it was really hard to micro them effectively. Players used to use mineral patches and their own buildings to get the unwieldy beasts to stack. The same can be said of vultures. Before people learned patrol micro, you could counter them with speedlings if you wanted. This game is SO different every 2 years it's unbelievable.
On July 22 2010 15:33 Chef wrote: I know you neobowman! I recognise your name from BWMN, anyway.
I think everyone on TL who loves SC should really watch every OSL finals ever made. It really gives you an appreciation of just how much this game has evolved and been through, and WHY it is such a good game. It is not so simple as 'you can do this and this which doesn't happen in such and such a game.' It's the way it is constantly fresh. At every point in SC history people have felt 'okay, we've basically got things figured out' or 'SC is basically dead' and then someone completely changes everything. I was going to write my own long rant on this but... Yeah. I think you get such a greater appreciation of StarCraft if you've been around for awhile, or at least take the time to learn it's history.
Who cares if SC2 MIGHT become good? SC:BW already is. SC:BW is a legitimate sport... more legitimate than hockey or baseball or football if you ask me. SC2 is just a game. Sure, it COULD become a sport, but it seems to be trying to hard. Games should become sports on their own (by the will of the players and fans), not because Blizzard paid a lot of money. I think we're going to see SC2 rejected by a lot of people who find Blizzard's presence a little overwhelming.
EPT
