EPTBrood War - Page 2
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:14 butchji wrote: Comparing StarCraft2 with StarCraft1 without BroodWar and any balancing would be more reasonable Care to explain how exactly that makes sense? | ||
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:17 TheAntZ wrote: Care to explain how exactly that makes sense? Because it took like almost a decade to make BroodWar that perfect? Comparing it to a not even released game without its addons is just unfair. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:19 butchji wrote: Because it took like almost a decade to make BroodWar that perfect? Comparing it to a not even released game without its addons is just unfair. How is it unfair? Blizzard has had this much time to perfect their game. It should be better than BW right off the bat. and TvZ aside, I'd argue that its definitely comparable to BW in terms of balance, so I dont know what you're getting at by saying it should be compared to sc without balancing. The balance in SC2 is fine. Thats not even the topic of discussion here. The thing is that the reason so many 'tense' moments happened in BW was because you had to struggle against the interface to do certain micro tricks, and that units and spells dealt ridiculous amounts of splash or AoE damage, or were ridiculous in some way or the other. Think about the most 'AAARGHHH' moments in BW, what were they? Lurkerling flanks, mnm micro against lurkers, reaver drops, well placed storms, swarms, I could go on, but anyone who has watched BW knows this. See a common theme? These are all situations that arise because of spells dealing incredible amounts of damage, or being plain out imbalanced (dark swarm, psionic storm, lets face it, those were insane) BW was balanced on the razors edge because everything was so insanely powerful. SC2 however is going the other way, maintaining balance by mellowing it down, understandable since you dont need to struggle against the interface (the other point) to cast spells and do micro. Spells cant be atrociously powerful because they are MUCH easier to cast now. As a result, see someone cast 8 storm? Meh who cares, a bronze player could do it. Do you see what I mean? This isnt a problem that can be solved by the wait and see approach | ||
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gumbum8
United States721 Posts
On July 22 2010 01:54 Piy wrote: Of course you can't compare BW and a game that hasn't been released yet. C'mon. Everyone uses this as an excuse nowadays. I don't think it makes any sense to me, because while it's not out, it's basically in the form it will be in when it's released. No miracles are going to happen between now and then. Right now I don't like the game, and that's not changing on release. I'm going to play BW until SC2 is better than BW. I just feel bored playing SC2 compared to BW, so I won't play it until/if that changes. | ||
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Kaminate
United States49 Posts
BW for life! (or until I earn enough money to buy a computer with more than 500 mb memory) | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
It has little to do with anything else. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:36 Piy wrote: We are excited about a new game with new possibilities for creativity and interest. It lacks the polish of BW currently, but we are looking forward to actively experiencing it's growth, both as an esport and a game in itself. It has little to do with anything else. Sure, I dont think anyone wants SC2 to fail tbh, not even the most die-hard BW fans. I mean come on, if its gonna be a better game, theres no reason not to play it. The thing is, right now, its not. And the reasons its not dont seem to be something that will change with patching and expansions (read above to see what I mean) Im just trying to get an explanation to refute those problems/points from someone, I am definitely not an SC2 anti-fan | ||
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Entertaining
Canada793 Posts
On July 22 2010 00:44 Misrah wrote: yes but we no better now, we are actively looking for it and can't find it. you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs. QTF Even winning in sc2 is boring. After a game the most thrill i get is being excited to change games. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:26 TheAntZ wrote: How is it unfair? Blizzard has had this much time to perfect their game. It should be better than BW right off the bat. and TvZ aside, I'd argue that its definitely comparable to BW in terms of balance, so I dont know what you're getting at by saying it should be compared to sc without balancing. The balance in SC2 is fine. Thats not even the topic of discussion here. The thing is that the reason so many 'tense' moments happened in BW was because you had to struggle against the interface to do certain micro tricks, and that units and spells dealt ridiculous amounts of splash or AoE damage, or were ridiculous in some way or the other. Think about the most 'AAARGHHH' moments in BW, what were they? Lurkerling flanks, mnm micro against lurkers, reaver drops, well placed storms, swarms, I could go on, but anyone who has watched BW knows this. See a common theme? These are all situations that arise because of spells dealing incredible amounts of damage, or being plain out imbalanced (dark swarm, psionic storm, lets face it, those were insane) BW was balanced on the razors edge because everything was so insanely powerful. SC2 however is going the other way, maintaining balance by mellowing it down, understandable since you dont need to struggle against the interface (the other point) to cast spells and do micro. Spells cant be atrociously powerful because they are MUCH easier to cast now. As a result, see someone cast 8 storm? Meh who cares, a bronze player could do it. Do you see what I mean? This isnt a problem that can be solved by the wait and see approach Here is the thing. This is all on a POV. SC2 is better than BW right off the bat. The interface is better, the gameplay is smoother, the balance is better. What most here hate about it, is it doesn't have rediculous demands that make for exciting play. You don't see it because it is not a game being played by people who are paid to play it nonstop and have 12 years of strategy and build orders to follow. Of course you can argue that you already know what is happening with it and it will fail. Take a look at starcraft 1 from release day up until BW and tell me you knew it was a game that would have people playing it for money in a professional league. BW beta was really stupid. Hello reavers doing 250 damage per shot and other stupid balance issues. Sc2 beta was really stupid at the start but it got better and better over a few months it is still not perfect in any means.This is 1/3 of sc2 we are seeing. They have 2 more expansions to add on it until we see the vision Blizzard had for it(Blizzard always has the vision of the final product years down the road) I like both BW and SC2. BW will still be here SC2 will be coming and both should learn to live with each other. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:41 TheAntZ wrote: Sure, I dont think anyone wants SC2 to fail tbh, not even the most die-hard BW fans. I mean come on, if its gonna be a better game, theres no reason not to play it. The thing is, right now, its not. And the reasons its not dont seem to be something that will change with patching and expansions (read above to see what I mean) Im just trying to get an explanation to refute those problems/points from someone, I am definitely not an SC2 anti-fan That's the same logic that indicates that we should never watch any film but Citizen Kane because it is the best ever, and every film since then has been a waste of time. Nobody should have bothered writing plays after Hamlet. Noone should have released an album after Sgt. Pepper. Every RPG since FFIV deserved to sell no copies. See how bad this reasoning is? | ||
Arrian
United States889 Posts
On July 22 2010 01:26 ghrur wrote: Wavedashing didn't take years. It took like a year before people found it. People even implemented it a few months after its discovery. Also, people didn't look for wavedashing because it didn't exist in smash64 (and people hardly played that). Compare it to L-canceling which was in both, and I'm pretty sure Isai knew about it and looked for it. Your point being? This actually supports my point. You're not finding stuff because the same stuff isn't in this game for obvious reasons. It's going to take time to find the tricks/gimmicks/etc. There are good reasons why muta micro for example isn't in this one, and reasons why other tricks aren't in it either. Every game has exploits. Every game. They just take time to find. And the tricks and gimmicks part actually applies to both games because regardless of the intent behind the creation of the games, the glitches/tricks/gimmicks will exist anyway. Even if Sakurai wanted Melee to be a shit game, if he didn't stop the glitches, it would be competitive. Exactly what I said. None of this refutes the idea that these things will take time, which was my point. Misrah was saying that they don't exist because they haven't been found already, which is ridiculous. Speaking of which, when was it stated that the developers knew of wavedashing already? I mean, they probably knew of L-canceling because it was in both 64 and melee, and then auto-canceling in brawl, but wavedashing? Go take it up with Smashboards. That's where i heard it from, and I tend to trust them on issues of smash. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:50 Piy wrote: That's the same logic that indicates that we should never watch any film but Citizen Kane because it is the best ever, and every film since then has been a waste of time. Nobody should have bothered writing plays after Hamlet. Noone should have released an album after Sgt. Pepper. Every RPG since FFIV deserved to sell no copies. See how bad this reasoning is? I think you are exaggerating. Im not saying people shouldnt buy SC2, or play it, thats ridiculous. I'm just saying that I think there are certain aspects of it that keep it from having the scope to imrpove. I'd definitely buy the game, even if it was absolute shit, if only for the single player. But in a contest between BW and sc2 for long term play, if sc2 doesnt gain that 'oomph!' that BW had (in ways that i described in previous posts), then BW is simply the better game. This is not saying that sc2 will never gain that, I'm just not sure how it should, or how blizzard should go about making it so. | ||
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Polar_Nada
United States1548 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:55 TheAntZ wrote: I think you are exaggerating. Im not saying people shouldnt buy SC2, or play it, thats ridiculous. I'm just saying that I think there are certain aspects of it that keep it from having the scope to imrpove. I'd definitely buy the game, even if it was absolute shit, if only for the single player. But in a contest between BW and sc2 for long term play, if sc2 doesnt gain that 'oomph!' that BW had (in ways that i described in previous posts), then BW is simply the better game. This is not saying that sc2 will never gain that, I'm just not sure how it should, or how blizzard should go about making it so. how do you know that there are certain aspects to keep it from improving? also, u are making an IF statement. anything can happen. just give it some time! | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On July 22 2010 03:02 Polar_Nada wrote: how do you know that there are certain aspects to keep it from improving? also, u are making an IF statement. anything can happen. just give it some time! I dont KNOW, I just think so, based on BW. I mean the most exciting moments, as I already described, come from mechanics in the game that dont exist in SC2, for good reason; i.e, the better interface and smartcasting causing spells to become more easy to cast. again its just an opinion, and like I said yeah i'll buy it and play it, and if it becomes better than BW (from a spectator view) then definitely play it competitively too :D edit: I think a simple way to describe part of the problem, is that anything FLASHY, pleasant to view in sc2, can be done by even the slowest and worst player. The best players set themselves apart through means that you normally cant really see outright in a game, better macro, timings, unit combos, etc | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
On July 22 2010 03:19 LuckyFool wrote: I'm playing broodwar through usa wcg then it'll be pure sc2. sc2 is the future, it's what everyones interested in and it's where the money, sponsors, events and tournaments are headed so I have no choice. Neither do the major teams or top level players. Many people agree broodwar is the better game but what wins the day in the end are viewers and money. What do people want to watch and sponsor now? starcraft 2. Exactly for these reasons SC2 will last till the next "big" game comes out, just like WC3. People were playing it for 2 years, when there was money in it and after that it was all about DOTA. Nowadays its the same with SC2. Everyone is "omg I`m gonna be pro at SC2, I`m gonna win a thousand dollars from a tourney omg!". BW is art, bw is passion and in my mind there will never be better game than it. | ||
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shadesofkarma
Romania708 Posts
On July 22 2010 03:19 LuckyFool wrote: I'm playing broodwar through usa wcg then it'll be pure sc2. sc2 is the future, it's what everyones interested in and it's where the money, sponsors, events and tournaments are headed so I have no choice. Neither do the major teams or top level players. Many people agree broodwar is the better game but what wins the day in the end are viewers and money. What do people want to watch and sponsor now? starcraft 2. are you playing for the sponsors or because you love the game? | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On July 22 2010 02:55 TheAntZ wrote: I think you are exaggerating. Im not saying people shouldnt buy SC2, or play it, thats ridiculous. I'm just saying that I think there are certain aspects of it that keep it from having the scope to imrpove. I'd definitely buy the game, even if it was absolute shit, if only for the single player. But in a contest between BW and sc2 for long term play, if sc2 doesnt gain that 'oomph!' that BW had (in ways that i described in previous posts), then BW is simply the better game. This is not saying that sc2 will never gain that, I'm just not sure how it should, or how blizzard should go about making it so. But there's no way of predicting that. You just seem to be disagreeing for the sake of it. | ||
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Megalisk
United States6095 Posts
On July 22 2010 03:40 shadesofkarma wrote: are you playing for the sponsors or because you love the game? The top foreigners play SC2 because its a way to earn cash, which they can't do in SC1. | ||
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