You probably don't know me. You probably don't care, but I'll be sticking to Brood War.
Overall, it's just the better game. Sure, Starcraft 2 has minor stuff like flanking and expanding patterns, and yes, it has micro and strategy, but you can't compare that to Brood War.
Brood War was just perfect. You can't recreate a lurker contain in Z v P in Starcraft 2. The moment of insane micro when a Protoss tries to break out, the Zerg tries to snipe the observer and the Protoss in turn, tries to storm the **** out of every living Zerg unit while trying to save his observer at the same time. There's no Starcraft 2 equivalent.
Same with a moment where you break a Terran push. Sure, you can blink stalkers up to siege tanks, but chargelots running up to tanks doesn't compare to shuttles dropping zealots that drag mines into the largest cluster of Terran units you can find, while vultures try to snipe the zealots before being exploded themselves.
Zerg vs Terran, how the hell do you recreate 2 lurkers defending a ramp or science vessel vs defiler micro in Starcraft 2? Blargh! You can't. Not to mention the recent introduction of bio early game into mech late game. There's no real SC2 equivalent.
I will be playing SC2 every now and then once I pick up the game, because yes, it's not a bad game by any means, and its fun, but it doesn't compare to the awesomeness that is Brood War and progaming scene. Brood War Iccup ladder ftw.
lol hi neo at first reading your post I couldn't help but feel disgusted by what I was sure was another newb guy who went onto iccup and got smashed. But I see its you neo! come on now man, you gotta be better then that. You gotta understand you can't expect epic moments like that, and you can have other scenarios where its intense, for example holding off a baneling push with just 2 sentries can be very nerve wrecking because 1 FF fuck up and its over thats all she wrote. Things like this will come naturally as we evolve as players and find out new combos and tricks.
On July 22 2010 00:41 ramen247 wrote: go ahead but broodwar at first did not have this insane micro either.
yes but we no better now, we are actively looking for it and can't find it. you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs.
On July 22 2010 00:41 ramen247 wrote: go ahead but broodwar at first did not have this insane micro either.
yes but we no better now, we are actively looking for it and can't find it. you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs.
...you do realize that you don't "Actively" look for it, you instead are awed by a player going above and beyond the call, don't expect freaking pro gamer level micro beyond the basic strategies we have carved out. For gods sake its not even released and you're bitching like a baby, give it 6 months and especially now that there are korean pro gamers in it, let them figure it out for us.
I'm mainly quitting BW cuz there's no more competition anymore. If there were still tournies and Clan leagues with active people i'd still play till im like 30 XD.
But right now i plan to focus much more attention on korean BW scene, that i never did before.
I agree with ella - your reasons suck, but the conclusion is good.
BW went through a bunch of patches, evolution of players, and over ten years of development. You can't expect SC2 to pick of where BW left off. It's a new game and will grow. Time is the only thing that can validate your claims, and there simply hasn't been enough it.
On July 22 2010 00:52 YPang wrote: I'm mainly quitting BW cuz there's no more competition anymore. If there were still tournies and Clan leagues with active people i'd still play till im like 30 XD.
ICCUP in itself is still extremely competitive though. Sure, no money prize or even trips or anything like that, but still, practicing hard and managing to move up the ranks is still extremely challenging and rewarding.
On July 22 2010 00:41 ramen247 wrote: go ahead but broodwar at first did not have this insane micro either.
yes but we no better now, we are actively looking for it and can't find it. you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs.
brawl was designed to be a shit game. it was designed not to be competitive. sakuri even said so. that's a false analogy
and looking for it is really irrelevant. nobody looked for wavedashing. hell, the developers even knew about wavedashing but it took years for anybody else to come up with it. it was discovered by accident. nobody was looking for certain micro tricks/gimmicks etc. these things are discovered, not invented. it takes time, and dedication, but they happen. the impatience among the community is profoundly misplaced, and it hurts the game when people don't even give it a chance when they expect the game to be as developed as bw right out of the gate.
On July 22 2010 00:41 ramen247 wrote: go ahead but broodwar at first did not have this insane micro either.
yes but we no better now, we are actively looking for it and can't find it. you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs.
Oh my goodness! I'm a noob? Whatever shall I do!? lol Btw, ssbb isn't like sc2 since sc2 will constantly be patched. Unless you count brawl plus.... or brawl minus haha
Anyways, I hope you're wrong Mr. OP. I really hope that SC2 will get better as time goes on.
On July 22 2010 00:41 ramen247 wrote: go ahead but broodwar at first did not have this insane micro either.
yes but we no better now, we are actively looking for it and can't find it. you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs.
but sf4 is popular when its inferior to its predecessors...I hope sc2 becomes popular, even if i dont like sc2.
bw isnt going to get more popular with time. So watching a starcraft 2 will be better than watching no sc.
Maybe it feels bad because I came up with it while I was bored and trying to waste time. Those weren't the only reasons I have, just so everyone understands. I haven't even gone into the high ground mechanics, how much harder macro is and the motivation factor in it.
On July 22 2010 00:41 ramen247 wrote: go ahead but broodwar at first did not have this insane micro either.
yes but we no better now, we are actively looking for it and can't find it. you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs.
brawl was designed to be a shit game. it was designed not to be competitive. sakuri even said so. that's a false analogy
and looking for it is really irrelevant. nobody looked for wavedashing. hell, the developers even knew about wavedashing but it took years for anybody else to come up with it. it was discovered by accident. nobody was looking for certain micro tricks/gimmicks etc. these things are discovered, not invented. it takes time, and dedication, but they happen. the impatience among the community is profoundly misplaced, and it hurts the game when people don't even give it a chance when they expect the game to be as developed as bw right out of the gate.
Wavedashing didn't take years. It took like a year before people found it. People even implemented it a few months after its discovery. Also, people didn't look for wavedashing because it didn't exist in smash64 (and people hardly played that). Compare it to L-canceling which was in both, and I'm pretty sure Isai knew about it and looked for it.
And the tricks and gimmicks part actually applies to both games because regardless of the intent behind the creation of the games, the glitches/tricks/gimmicks will exist anyway. Even if Sakurai wanted Melee to be a shit game, if he didn't stop the glitches, it would be competitive. Speaking of which, when was it stated that the developers knew of wavedashing already? I mean, they probably knew of L-canceling because it was in both 64 and melee, and then auto-canceling in brawl, but wavedashing?
i agree with OP. so far SC2 just doesnt have nearly as interesting unit chemistry between the races. so far it's basically just 2 balls of mostly ranged units (or zeals and zerglings which are the only 'useful" melee units in the game basically now) a-moving into each other with spells going off. maybe in time it will change but right now there's just no finesse like there is in any BW matchup.
In broodwar most of the 'epic' micro and tense moments came about because of players fighting against the interface for control. You dont need to fight against sc2, it gives it away easy. tl;dr: sc2 is a slut, bw is a hard to get prude. I'm gonna give it more time definitely, i still do watch it if not play, but I dont think micro and tense situations similar to BW will ever arise.
On July 22 2010 01:54 Piy wrote: Of course you can't compare BW and a game that hasn't been released yet. C'mon.
On July 11 2010 14:23 Ideas wrote: man i hate all this thought about "yea but SC2 isnt 12 years old!!!!"
it doesnt matter how old the game is. there is a competition between BW and SC2 right now, a competition to take up our free time. right now BW is out and costs 20$. SC2 is out and will cost 60$ in 3 weeks. basically you are all saying "yea BW is better but in a few years SC2 might be as good! just give it time!" is it unfair to compare the 2? absolutely not. Sure it has a lesser developed metagame but that doesnt mean i have to play this inferior game for 2 years until MAYBE it gets better.
basically BW is superior to SC2 right now in every gameplay regard except accessibility, which is where the masses of new SC2 users probably find most appealing (there is also probably the lot of people who like playing a game where most strategies are widely undiscovered, although that doesnt really apply to this comparison).
will SC2 improve and have greater dynamics over time? maybe. the expansions will add new units for sure, but even if they rival BW in terms of completely awesome game-changing units that are possibly the most exciting in the game, i have doubts that it will ever match the perfection of BW. a fun distraction for a time? sure, but it will just be like any other game i play for a week or 2 and then go back to my real game, BW.
On July 11 2010 11:59 ApacheChief wrote: I don't think this is true at all.
StarCraft 2 probably has MORE interactions between the races, with early game spells like forcefield, EMP and fungal growth.
I don't understand...
Have you played/watched BW a decent amount? I'm guessing you haven't.
Spells were a lot more devastating in BW. They were ESSENTIAL to some tactics. Getting storm out for the mass hydra bust, getting dark swarm to save yourself from the M&M/tank push, getting irradiate out to stop the powerful muta sniping, getting spider mines to deal with the mass speedlots, and many more. These were all absolutely critical and powerful to stopping the opponent's powerful push/strategy. But the beauty about it is that even though it's a great and powerful spell to repel the opponent's strategy, the opponent can still make use of his units with superior micro. Storm dodging, moving all units out of dark swarm quickly, scourging science vessels (which even the Terran can counter with even better micro), zealot bombing, etc.
SC2 introduces too many elements that weaken the effect of these awesome spells because of how easy smart casting is. This is an extremely poor decision in terms of game dynamics because now everyone can storm with similar efficiency. On the other hand, a greater player in BW can make less templars AND storm far more effectively and faster than a player who is slower and not as micro-prepped. This is key, a BW player with a couple of templars against zerg is scary. But it's not scary at all in SC2 until they have a ton of templars. You EARN your "terrible terrible damage" in BW, the game doesn't just give it to you.
Things in SC2 like FF, fungal growth, marauders' concussive shells, etc, don't allow the opponent to overcome these "counters" with greater micro. It's just not possible. If I get FF'd, the only thing I can do is just.. let my trapped units attack. There's really nothing else you can do. Fungal growth? Well, you're just trapped until it wears off. And I'm sure everyone has experienced trying to run away from marauders with the trailing units have zero hope of living. They don't give the option of "hey, great micro can get me out of this pinch!" And that's what makes BW the great spectator sport it is today.
I think SC2 is fun to watch, but just for how long? Who knows. I still get goosebumps watching BW games. I hope SC2 can still do the same, but that might be asking for too much.
On July 11 2010 14:53 sluggaslamoo wrote: Yeah likewise, SC2 has had 7 years of design time plus 12 years of BW evolution, to create a game that should be 100x better than BW from the get-go.
SC2 should have taken what was so captivating in BW and made it even better. IMO SC2 just seems to be riding on the success of BW, and hoping that any change will still lead to a good game.
On July 11 2010 15:11 QibingZero wrote: The years we've spent since SC was released were not just spent learning how to play that game - they were largely spent learning how to play RTS games. The best WC2 players on Kali, the best SC players at launch... players at that skill level would have trouble holding D on iccup today. The first day a player like Idra or Nony touched SC2, they were better at it than anyone was at SC for years. This is how far the RTS world has come since.
What I'm getting at is that all of these 'give it time' posts are ridiculous. Do you really think the top players aren't trying out every possible way to win? With players being picked up by eSports teams before the game is even released, you'd better believe they're trying every little trick they can to get the advantage over others. Despite everything though, they can't make infestors as game-changing as defilers were. They can't make skirmishes come as interesting as marine vs lurker or goons vs early terran pressure. There are limitations in place that simply cannot be overcome by 'figuring more stuff out'.
By the way, there's a terrible misconception going on here. It didn't take 10+ years for Starcraft to be an amazing and dynamic game to play and watch. In fact, we've enjoyed it for that long.
On July 22 2010 00:41 ramen247 wrote: go ahead but broodwar at first did not have this insane micro either.
you sound just like ssbb players. At first they all said that, now everyone knows that braw is just a shit game and all of the hard core melee players predictions have come true- brawl and sc2 is for noobs.
EPT
