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I was reading this news article (about the lack of interaction between players in the game), and there are the usual hive mind responses ("it's beta!" "Sc2 has MORE interaction"), and i stumbled upon this gem of a post
+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2010 11:06 Misrah wrote:Great article and a great read! thanks for the time that you had put into this! I really enjoyed your point of view, and i agree 100%! Everyone who plays and enjoys sc2 should take note:If you found fault with this article, i have only a few things to say to you... arguments of sc2 vs BW are over. BW is nigh un-attainable in a game ever again. So will bw always be better than sc2? yes... But what you all need to start realizing is that when people have dissenting opinions about sc2, they are not trying to destroy the game! They are trying to make it better, so it can hopefully live up to the name of SCBW! Secondly- to anyone that shares the logic of 'sc2 is still in beta' you need to to take a hard look at your arguments. They are not valid for a number of reasons. There are no hidden gems or hidden tricks to be found out... sc2 is figured out from a mechanical point of view. in the article, the OP is simply pointing out the fact that if this is all sc2 has to mechanically offer, it is going to be a poor excuse for BW. Lastly- Newcomers to SC should really learn to listen. Listen to more experienced players, listen to more well thought out opinions. I am getting sick and tired of your one liner rebuttals. I am talking to you- 'sc2 is in beta' 'apm elitist' 'everything has not been figured out yet' 'sounds like another crybaby' posters. Listen up and respect the hard work and opinion of the forum veterans. these people will know more about sc and rts than you ever will. they understand both games very intimately- and when one of them creates a wonderful piece, it's simply rude to answer with a simple one liner. Here is a wake up call! Don't come into a gaming community involved with ONE GAME FOR THE PAST DECADE- and somehow kid yourself that you have an enlightened opinion. /rant edit: my sig was made for a thread like this 
This is a complaint that is nothing new, but I would like to take it a step further. Firstly, I would like to make some claims and concessions. Despite my join date, I am not a "SC2 poster." I watched proleauge, grinded ICCUP and lurked TL for many months before getting a account; I felt too newb to post anything of value until then. However, I understand that I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as many of the forum elders, about the community or the game. However, this is still something i'd like to express.
Team Liquid is a site for competitive Starcraft. It's a place where people strive towards the highest form of e-sport possible. Those who didn't play, watched the Korean pros. We love Starcraft, and we talk about the good old days.
Now, lots of the posters are not of this mindset. They have no idea what they're talking about. Though this is quite evident in the SC2 forums, it is especially clear in the chats of unmoderated userstreams while the beta was down. They do not value the idea of Starcraft BW. They feel singled out because they didn't play BW, and feel discriminated against (rightfully so). As such, they believe that old timers need to get with the times, and the only people who complain about SC2 are just "blinded by their stupid love for a poorly designed game."
However, to me, Teamliquid is not just a community for lovers of Starcraft (one or two). It is a community for competitive Starcraft. When I come here for a discussion about interaction in SC2, I really don't want to hear that I'm in love with the past. The fact might be true, but I come to TL to talking with like-minded people. I don't want to talk with people who do not share my reverence of competitive play.
The disrespect for this mindset (which you can easily find in the linked thread above) is un-TeamLiquid. Its contrary to the community.
I feel like I'm part of a group which defines itself by an idea. Now many people who do not respect this idea have joined the group, and I fear that the original idea will be forgotten. I fear for Teamliquid's purity essence.
I know if I wait a year or two, then equilibrium will be restored, but I don't want to wait that long. I want new TL-ers to understand this mindset, and behave in context to its importance to TL. If I'm way out of line in this blog, please share your thoughts, but do so in an intellectual way. I'm not limiting this to BW veterans, the "sc2 crop" should share too, as long as its not knee jerk posts such as those outlined above.
 
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I totally agree.
Though, those who are just waltzing in here who are taking time to think about their opinions are fine by me. I'm SCBW forever, but I understand you _don't_ need to know all the precedents of an "art form" (or whatever) to bring a fresh or revolutionizing perspective on it. Irreverence for the past can often be exactly what certain arts and sports need to push forward, it just depends on how the irreverence is channeled, really.
I'm an old fogie when it comes to this stuff, BW is the only game I play and don't have an interest in any others. I don't know what a stalker does or how to counter it. I encourage the newbies to leave me and my kind behind, because I'm not worried about broodwar anymore, it has grown up to be a bright young man. The future of SC2 is a battle that isn't mine but is an important one none the less.
Posters who are always doing one liners about why their game is better are all lame in my eyes, even if they are all for BW.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
So you basically say that you don't like to hear opinions different from yours.
I am a member since 2004 and love competitive BW, and I believe that "it's still in beta and has a long way to go before you can even draw conclusions" and "the major factor behind your complaints is nostalgia" are absolutely valid arguments, especially with regards to that article.
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So you basically say that you don't like to hear opinions different from yours.
derpaderp wrote:
I come to TL to talking with like-minded people.
YEAH i come to talking. But its not so much that i dont want to hear differing opinions, i jsut want to hear ideas from the same perspective as me. I want to hear from people who want to attain the same goals that i do, who want to play the same kind of game. I dont want to hear people who play solitare tell me how to improve my favorite game, you know?
"it's still in beta and has a long way to go before you can even draw conclusions" and "the major factor behind your complaints is nostalgia" are absolutely valid arguments, especially with regards to that article.
it explains a phenomenon that exists right now, as well as a fear that they will continue into the future. It is a fact that the imbalances of BW spells have been toned down greatly. Imagine Dark swarm in this game right now, or consider that bio terran in BW completely nullified by storm.
Its not like any research into the game will make the game that much more volatile.
however, the real problem behind those arguments is the knee jerk aspect of it. the SC2 posters littering threads with those arguments is just as bad as me discouting their arguments because of their join dates.
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On July 13 2010 06:19 Random() wrote:
So you basically say that you don't like to hear opinions different from yours.
If you want to have a constructive conversation with someone, PLEASE don't start off responses with things like this unless they are REALLY warranted. In this case the OP gave and quoted several reasons why he feels that the opinion contrary to his is not valid. If you find fault with them then address the arguments individually, don't just piss people off.
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On July 13 2010 06:36 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 06:19 Random() wrote:
So you basically say that you don't like to hear opinions different from yours.
If you want to have a constructive conversation with someone, PLEASE don't start off responses with things like this unless they are REALLY warranted. In this case the OP gave and quoted several reasons why he feels that the opinion contrary to his is not valid. If you find fault with them then address the arguments individually, don't just piss people off.
Its fine, thats essentially what i'm saying. He characterized it wrong, but the idea is true. Kind of like how at a Harry Potter convention, we dont want to listen to how Twilight has higher literary value.
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You are trying to make a subjective view awfully objective.
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On July 13 2010 06:40 koreasilver wrote:
You are trying to make a subjective view awfully objective.
i dont know what that is in reference to
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A great deal of Misrah's post which you called a "gem". While it is true that reading the SC2 forums is like wading through a dumpster, saying things like:
arguments of sc2 vs BW are over. BW is nigh un-attainable in a game ever again. So will bw always be better than sc2? yes...
doesn't accomplish anything. Because it is a widely subjective claim. Then there's this:
Secondly- to anyone that shares the logic of 'sc2 is still in beta' you need to to take a hard look at your arguments. They are not valid for a number of reasons. There are no hidden gems or hidden tricks to be found out... sc2 is figured out from a mechanical point of view.
which is highly arguable - it's a completely blind leap of faith.
It doesn't matter if the majority of the new SC2 posters are garbage. Too many of the older BW fans suffer from excessive hubris. I mean:
They feel singled out because they didn't play BW, and feel discriminated against (rightfully so).
really?
What does this sort of arrogance accomplish but a suppression of thought?
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I apologize for my lack of clarity. the discrimination is not rightful (grammar :3), their feelings are.
Arguments that "things will be discovered" are just as bad as "things will never be discovered." the truth is, nobody knows, and using either iteration as support for any argument is just stupid.
The reason i feel that its a gem is because it addresses the disrespect for the mindset of this ideal that many of us are trying to achieve, i.e. a fun game to spectate and play, where good play will get you out of bad situations.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On July 13 2010 06:34 derpaderp wrote:
I want to hear from people who want to attain the same goals that i do, who want to play the same kind of game. I dont want to hear people who play solitare tell me how to improve my favorite game, you know?
Your favourite game (which is obviously BW) needs no improvement.
Starcraft 2 is a new game. A lot of BW people want it to be exactly like BW, down to reproducing the AI glitches. I think it is unreasonable. It's much like real sports, after all. If somebody goes and invents a new ball game you don't keep telling them that their game is wrong because it does not involve two baskets and five people on each team trying to put a ball into those baskets, although you have every right to tell them that their game is not as exciting as basketball.
I agree that SC2 is not as deep and exciting as BW at the moment. However, I don't think it is possible to fix that by trying to reproduce BW mechanics. The engine is very different, and you have to live with that. BW would be broken if it was just ported to SC2 engine, but you can't just ditch better pathfinding and better UI because it makes the game easier to control. You need to improve the game with those things in mind, which is as far as I can tell is exactly what Blizzard is trying to do.
And regarding "it's still beta" - just remember that most of the game-defining units were introduced in Broodwar, which is an expansion (I don't know much about Warcraft 3, but wasn't it the same with the Frozen Throne expansion?). Starcraft 2 is going to have two expansions, and quite obviously there will be game-changing new units or abilities.
To put it short, copying BW is not a reasonable way to improve SC2. Which is what non-hardcore people are trying to say, aren't they?
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i really appreciate the time and thought put into these responses, and they are wholly accurate. The reason that i really like these posts is because they are written by people who's mindset is congruent with what i believe, (and what i think TL should be).
This being said, i think we've gone to a different argument. Its absolutely true that i have no idea what sc2 is going to be like, but thats not my point. the point is that the average SC2 poster does not want with all their heart for sc2 to be a beautiful game. I believe that, because they have not lived and seen the growth of BW, they think the current scene of sc2 is "good enough." they think that our BW hope and nostalgia is ill-founded.
I believe that TL oldies want sc2 to be just as beautiful (if not more) than BW, and everyone has their own ideas for it. some people think that the current rendition will evolve into a beautiful game, while others think there needs to be brood war mechanics, while others still think that there needs to be brand new mechanics.
I'm just saying that the "sc2 poster" does not know the greatness that sc2 could achieve, and they dont value this greatness at all, and that is why they garbage up TL so much for me.
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EPT
