EPTAt times I feel I'm bit too "concrete" for my own good, thinking very close to objects and pictures, rather than general theories. Alot of factors goes into how people turn up though, there are quite a few Asian mathmaticians here at berkeley, but the majority of the students in math major here is not asian, they're into eecs or some shit
Asian Math Secrets - Page 3
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
At times I feel I'm bit too "concrete" for my own good, thinking very close to objects and pictures, rather than general theories. Alot of factors goes into how people turn up though, there are quite a few Asian mathmaticians here at berkeley, but the majority of the students in math major here is not asian, they're into eecs or some shit | ||
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Thats_The_Spirit
Netherlands138 Posts
On July 09 2010 05:04 spinesheath wrote: So what if you ask an asian child to subtract 3 from 12? Sorry but the 12 - 2 example only applies in very few cases. I would hardly call that an advantage of the asian number system. The western numbers have all the same information in them, they just use position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100 and so on. So there we have a disadvantage: The western system only uses 10 digits, the asian system uses about 10 + log10(number range). Plus/Minus 1 I guess, to lazy to check. An asian child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, the number 10 and multiplication to calculate stuff up to 99. A western child has to be taught the numbers 0 to 9, multiplication and the concept of higher digit positions. Both systems need a deeper understanding whenever it's not something simple as simple as 10 * x, 10 + x, (10+x) - x. To become good at mathematics you need practice. A lot of practice, even if your naturally talented. For most people that's the single most important factor. And we all know that working hard and is a common theme in asian culture. The 12 - 2 example indeed applies in a few cases, but the important part of the OP is that the asian child will encounter the concept of substraction first, because of the way numbers are spoken. And all learned skills are cumulative. So if the child already understands the concept of 12 - 2, it might be easier for the child to figure out 12 - 3. And the part about western numbers using position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100, etc, the way you write it down is not yet relevant for the young child, it's the spoken language that makes him/her understand the concept. And besides, not all asian countries have new characters for 10, 100, etc. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
But I digress... | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
OP's argument is a simple one, perhaps he overextended that idea a bit too much which caused some confusions, but in short: OP argues: In pre-school period when children encounter numbers for the first time by parents speaking to them, Asians have an advantage right away because of their language structure. OP does a very good job explaining why there is such advantage. However, OP made a bit of a generalisation that seems to cause the people to think that his argument is this instead: The Asian language is what makes Asians good at math. Then of course, people in the thread started to argue: "Oh it's because they put more emphasis on education also" "Oh it's because the Asians come to U.S. is already the smartest of Asians" "Oh it's because they also force their kids to memorise multiplication tables" "Oh it's because ..." ... Which are all valid points on their own, but they do not invalidate OP's original argument, as his original argument is in a very narrow scope where the additional arguments do not apply. He is talking about a specific period of time, that is, birth until grade-school, where the Asian language gives Asians an advantage at math that is not enjoyed by English speakers. And comparisons of math capabilities of children in high school and beyond do not apply. Hope it clears things up a bit. | ||
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
On July 09 2010 06:53 evanthebouncy! wrote: Sure, education emphasis plays probably a much larger role on mathematics achievement than the way we count. But I've lived in U.S. for almost... 9 years now? And all my theoretical math I learned here, my understand of math in Chinese covers up to solving systems of linear equations and that is all, which comes nowhere close to my math education in the States. Still, when it comes to arithmentics, Chinese language makes so much more sense than English so I never ever do arithmentic in English because it sucks balls compared to Chinese in terms of simplicity and speed, even pronounciation. Something you learned when you were young comes easier in your first language than your second language. Ok. Do you really think your experience abstracts to some sort of human universal when it comes to learning math? That we should take it as proof that Chinese is absolutely faster than English when it comes to arithmetic? Come on. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On July 09 2010 06:57 evanthebouncy! wrote: Oh yeah I fucking hate asians who do pre-med, mindless drones they are, afraid of taking hard classes to hurt their GPA and they "compete" with one another in retardedly easy classes that doesn't require half their brain power. But I digress... i know these ppl, it doesn't even require them to attend class t-t | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On July 09 2010 07:16 mucker wrote: Something you learned when you were young comes easier in your first language than your second language. Ok. Do you really think your experience abstracts to some sort of human universal when it comes to learning math? That we should take it as proof that Chinese is absolutely faster than English when it comes to arithmetic? Come on. Not nessesarily. A lot of times I find certain expressions much more natural in English than in Chinese, and I learned English after Chinese. For instance, when I try to argue something logically, English makes a lot more sense than Chinese (good for poems thou). Of course, it does not constitute as a "proof" for anything, but again, I am not trying to prove to you Chinese is absolutely faster than English when it comes to arithmetic. And now that I've told u that in the case of expressing logic, I used to do them in Chinese but now I do them in English, it means there is something inherently to the English language that makes it better than Chinese in terms of expressing logic, for me. Similarly, I hope you can understand there is something inherently to Chinese that makes it faster for arithmetic than English, for me, and the reason is not simply as I learned Chinese first before English. I do not expect people to pick up Chinese just for the sake of arithmetic, because they can never be comfortable with Chinese to begin with. However, as I speak both language equally on a daily basis, more English in terms of academic on top of that, the fact that I still use Chinese for arithmetic is significant. editing for a TLDR: In short, I use both Chinese and English. They are good at different things, and I feel inclined to use one over an other in different situations, and that choice is not because I have traditionally done something in one language over another, but because something inherent to that language makes it better than other at expressing certain ideas. | ||
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goldrush
Canada709 Posts
In my opinion, this is akin to seeing a correlation and then fitting a theory to suit the results. It's the common 'ice cream causes shark attacks' and then reasoning that sharks have some natural inclination to the smell of humans who eat ice cream. Which are all valid points on their own, but they do not invalidate OP's original argument, as his original argument is in a very narrow scope where the additional arguments do not apply. He is talking about a specific period of time, that is, birth until grade-school, where the Asian language gives Asians an advantage at math that is not enjoyed by English speakers. And comparisons of math capabilities of children in high school and beyond do not apply. I don't know if you can state that as fact solely based upon the OP's reasoning. | ||
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Dance.jhu
United States292 Posts
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white_horse
1019 Posts
And the reason why the stereotype that asians are good at math exist is not because asians are naturally smart or some other dumb reason. They generally study hard or their parents push them hard to do well in school overall, that is why it seems like asians seem to get the A's all the time. because they practice a lot. Some of my white friends call themselves "dumb" and "not naturally good at math" but the reality is that if they tried as hard as me and actually studied aggressively, they'd get good grades too. Race has nothing to do with it. | ||
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SoManyDeadLings
Canada255 Posts
In Chinese, the numbering system makes more sense and the numbers are shorter in syllables as well. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
I wouldn't say a small preconceived advantage at a certain part can cause a drastic difference in performance. Often academic performance comes down to learning habits and skills rather then using a different form of numbers or anything like that. Making background and culture far more important. Also if the OP statement was even true it's effects would be on early math not really related to the math given on the SAT's which has to do more with brain development and conceived notations. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On July 09 2010 06:56 Thats_The_Spirit wrote: The 12 - 2 example indeed applies in a few cases, but the important part of the OP is that the asian child will encounter the concept of substraction first, because of the way numbers are spoken. And all learned skills are cumulative. So if the child already understands the concept of 12 - 2, it might be easier for the child to figure out 12 - 3. And the part about western numbers using position of digits instead of whole new signs for 10, 100, etc, the way you write it down is not yet relevant for the young child, it's the spoken language that makes him/her understand the concept. And besides, not all asian countries have new characters for 10, 100, etc. Agreed it does not work for 12-3. Since it introduces a brand new concept of substracting from a base 10 and there is no way of the child figuring out how to approach this concept. However this is not the case for numbers that are not substracting from a base 10. For e.g. 19-9, 19-8..., 19-1. 18-8, 18-7, .... 11-1 (45 combinations from that alone) This is possible since the "10" and the single digits are separate in East Asian languages. On July 09 2010 05:35 Golden Ghost wrote: Sorry but this argument is just wishful thinking of the OP. You have so much different ways of using the numbers. For example where and English speaker would pronounce 24 as twenty-four in the Netherlands it would be vierentwintig (four and twenty). And when you take 81 it becomes eighty-one in English, eenentachtig (one and eighty) in Dutch and quatre-vingt-un (four twenty one) in French. If you would look to all different systems you would most likely find out your theory wouldn't hold up. My paper would only hold up if you have the group of people from different races studying at the same level of mathmatics. Thus it can only be tested on a country with different kinds of race/nationality (USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) studying at the same level. People seem to be comparing the level of mathematics from their country/school with the level of mathematics from their country/school. They are not studying at the same level of mathematics nor the fact they can study at higher level proves in anyway they have natural mathematic skills. Someone put their hand up if they are from USA or Australia: a Dutch, French or Russian are dominanting math in their class and not Asians. Also I'm Korean, not what you would call "wishful" thinking. On July 09 2010 09:12 semantics wrote: what about the concept of decimal points, unless there is a emphasis on using fractions which i thought was only a US thing which like addition and subtraction is taught at a young age. I think i learned negative numbers and fractions in the 3rd grade. I wouldn't say a small preconceived advantage at a certain part can cause a drastic difference in performance. Often academic performance comes down to learning habits and skills rather then using a different form of numbers or anything like that. Making background and culture far more important. Also if the OP statement was even true it's effects would be on early math not really related to the math given on the SAT's which has to do more with brain development and conceived notations. Indeed except the fact it is during the early child development. A child would have experienced different concept of numbers during their infancy. It would mean an East Asian child would have understood more of it before coming to school. A lot of people tend to think people learn math only in classrooms. On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans. And the reason why the stereotype that asians are good at math exist is not because asians are naturally smart or some other dumb reason. They generally study hard or their parents push them hard to do well in school overall, that is why it seems like asians seem to get the A's all the time. because they practice a lot. Some of my white friends call themselves "dumb" and "not naturally good at math" but the reality is that if they tried as hard as me and actually studied aggressively, they'd get good grades too. Race has nothing to do with it. No but we say in the same order they do. Every East Asian country does, a point I'm trying to make. We are not talking about children understanding Arabic numbers (not at all) but the actual words and the concept of numbers. A child who has learned 11, 12 or 13 do not recognise arabic numerals or rather words eleven, twelve and thirteen. Furthermore when Chinese do mathematics they use Arabic numerals not Chinese characters. | ||
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Vinnesta
Singapore285 Posts
On July 09 2010 08:54 white_horse wrote: OP, you need to change all the "asians" in your post to "chinese". Koreans don't use chinese characters for math, just regular numbers like americans. Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English. When I read this section in Outliers, I was thinking, "What nonsense! This is the perfect excuse for non-Asians to think they're weak in Math." The only significant reason for why Asians are good at Math is hard work. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On July 09 2010 10:45 Vinnesta wrote: Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English. Yeah although I specified in the OP I was clearly talking about the early stages of development before school even begins. I can't really say it's all hard work. I did get 100% in HSC for math, it had nothing to do with hard work, in fact I only did around 2 hours of math a week and I was forced into it (you got to understand if you get raw 90ish mark it scales to 100% so everyone in raw 90 to 100 get 100 <- Asian kids, percentile system). I seen a lot of non-Asian put a lot of effort in math, it was just not happening. At one point I was tutoring one of my friends in math. There is way too big of a gap it to be just "hard work" or even genetics. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On July 09 2010 10:45 Vinnesta wrote: Not only Chinese, but specifically China-born Chinese. Singapore has one of the highest Math scores in the world (according to the TIMSS), and we're a country with more than 70% Chinese. However, ALL of us learn math through an English medium. Case in point, I don't even know what "divide" is in Chinese. All numbers are written in Arabic numerals, and all lessons, notes, textbooks, and exams are done in English. When I read this section in Outliers, I was thinking, "What nonsense! This is the perfect excuse for non-Asians to think they're weak in Math." The only significant reason for why Asians are good at school is hard work. fixed that for you. Doing well in school related to someone being a hard worker, also someone who is willing to sit down mostly only as an observer while being lectured to on how something is done, and this is very prevalent in math that has little student interactivity. | ||
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Vinnesta
Singapore285 Posts
On July 09 2010 10:51 ooni wrote: Yeah although I specified in the OP I was clearly talking about the early stages of development before school even begins. I can't really say it's all hard work. I did get 100% in HSC for math, it had nothing to do with hard work, in fact I only did around 2 hours of math a week and I was forced into it (you got to understand if you get raw 90ish mark it scales to 100% so everyone in raw 90 to 100 get 100 <- Asian kids, percentile system). I seen a lot of non-Asian put a lot of effort in math, it was just not happening. At one point I was tutorting one of my friends in math. There is way big of a gap it to be just "hard work" or even genetics. Oh my mistake, I meant that if you were comparing children with similar IQ but learning math through different languages, there should be insignificant difference in their abilities. And the point about pre-school development, again I stick by my point that a lot of Singaporean families are English speaking, and almost never use Chinese at home. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On July 09 2010 11:00 Vinnesta wrote: Oh my mistake, I meant that if you were comparing children with similar IQ but learning math through different languages, there should be insignificant difference in their abilities. And the point about pre-school development, again I stick by my point that a lot of Singaporean families are English speaking, and almost never use Chinese at home. And I stand by the fact majority of top math students in Australia/USA are from Korea/China (probably due to lack of Japanese students in Australia). At the end of the day, majority of students who accel in math in a multicultural country like Australia are Koreans and Chinese. These are not 3+ gen East Asians, they are usually 1.5 or 2 generation. You can't just point out the fact that Singaporeans are good at math. In a country with diverse nationalities e.g. Australia, USA and Canada, 1.5 gen Chinese and Koreans accel in math. Deduce-> 1.5 gen Chinese and Koreans score better in mathematics compare to people from other countries despite the fact they are doing the exact same test and taught the same material. This is called a controlled test. We can narrow down and test non-controlled variables like hard work, language and natural talent. People from Singapore are good at math Deduce-> Singapore people are good are good at math. ^Cannot deduce to a point where People from Singapore score better in mathematics since they are not doing the same test nor taught at the same level. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
The asian american achievement gap is due to socioeconomic/educational differences of the parents. If you look at 3rd+ generation asian americans from families that immigrated before world war 2, ones that immigrated due to persecution or low income jobs, I doubt you'll find that much success. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On July 09 2010 11:45 igotmyown wrote: So the US is better than the rest of the world at multiplication because it uses ounces/pounds/inches/feet/miles instead of meters and grams. If all American kids learns pounds conversion during infancy, YES! This is infancy people. They don't even know what numbers look like. =__= | ||
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