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i cant watch the rep right now but..
gas steal in zvz? couldnt you just destroy him with pure lings? even if they're unspeeded?
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i went 12pool he went 9pool so i was on the defensive with an econ advantage.
if you could take just a few minute to even skim the rep i'd appreciate it. thanks.
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Ok, fellow D- player here so take this with a big grain of salt. Perhaps some stronger player will correct me, and I can learn something too.
In the ZvZ I think you made a big mistake by being too passive after you repelled his first ling attack. The timing before you gain the benefits of your extra hatch,along with the timing when he has mutas and you don't are his two big timings to hurt you. He barely did any damage with his lings, so now its your turn to use tour hatchery advantage to hurt him. The extra hatchery should have given you a chance to put on serious pressure before his mutas came out.
I'm not sure about your decision to expand at that point. I couldn't quite tell if expanding prevented you from putting on pressure, or if you had so many minerals that it didn't affect your ability to build zerglings/tech/put up a spore. If it cut into any of those, I think you should have waited, because I think your ling pressure could have prevented him from expanding before you in any case.
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Lyriene
United States346 Posts
I saw your ZvT replay and I'll point out a few things that I noticed. (I'm B-  )
Facing mechanic Terran with Zerg can be a pain, but it's easier to deal with than bionic because there are less variables.
1. The biggest thing that led to your loss was your drone and expo count. When his mech ball was growing larger toward the midgame, your drone count was really low. Your natural's saturation was fine, but everywhere else, there were too little drones. Hydra-Muta is the correct counter to mech, however, you need the resources to back it up. Naturally, you want to expand faster as a result. You should be completely running at least 4 bases when he comes out.
2. Macro macro macro. This adds on from the previous point about drone count. If you fall behind in macro, you can't defeat mech. Even with good macro, mechanic units can be deadly, so you wanna make sure there are no hatcheries with 3 larvas, ever. Make sure you get used to hotkeying Hatcheries. During battles, you can override hotkeys with units but make sure when the map's idle, you hotkey those Hatcheries.
3. Scouting. Mechanic's strength relies heavily on resources. If you can snipe off some workers, he will be down a lot. During the game, you should have tried to poke around his mineral lines because he lacked a lot of defense. Of course, high-ranked players will plant a lot of turrets but in the early game, they can't afford to do that so use your Mutalisks actively. They can also be used to snipe off lone tanks, which delays their push even further. You also want to deny his 3rd as much as possible, because the difference between 2 gas and 3 gas is tremendous. If you see from scouting that he's going for an expansion, expand yourself as well. You want to be ahead by at least 2 expansions against mechanic Terran.
4. Unit composition. You should always look out for Tank to Goliath ratio. In your game, you should have been able to tell that his Tank count was really low compared to his Goliaths. Therefore, you should have made more Hydralisks. After you sniped off those few Tanks with your Mutas, he would have been crushed had your macro kept up. But let's say you have no idea what his unit composition is. When in doubt, build Mutalisks. You can defeat mech with only Mutalisks because Goliaths do little damage against Mutalisks and Tanks are useless. This will also naturally force your opponent to mass Goliaths and this is when you can switch to mass ground army or even continue to stay with Mutalisks if your gas keeps up. Basically, screw with his mind to build unbalanced composition between Tanks and Gols. You should utilize ultra-lings towards the end game and drop and various places because it really hurts the Terran to split his army for defense.
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Lyriene B- already? Goddamn you're so beastly fast O_O
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ty lyriene!
hcastorp yeah i realize i should ahve made more lings instead of drones right at that time, it woud also ahve saved my natural later on
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On June 30 2010 12:28 nath wrote:
i went 12pool he went 9pool so i was on the defensive with an econ advantage.
if you could take just a few minute to even skim the rep i'd appreciate it. thanks.
I really can't 
If my phone had an app to watch sc reps i totally would, but no one has been awesome enough to make one yet.
9pool means that they're going to be getting a faster lair than you. Gas steal means they just lost a larvae and 100minerals. Expand, then force your opponent to continually make lings instead of drones or mutas, and you'll eventially be able to absolutely rape him. Details later...
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just lost a brutal zvp when i was 5 bases to 2. from wc3 i have really good micro early game but once i have so many fucking units i cant do SHIT with them...i cant engage with a zerg army...with a terran the army is more structured and shit but with zerg its like u have a billion units and you can't really use groups effectively past 100 food.
edit: unless i had more skill...not saying its impossible
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ZvZ:
First things first: your 12pool was significantly delayed, since you threw it down at 250 minerals instead of 200
Now you don't absolutely need to do this, but I would much rather chuck that hatchery down at my natural, since your 12pool lings will still come in time to halt a 9pool.
Block your ramp before concentrating on the gas. only when your have at the very least 4 lings blocking the ramp should you send anything to start hammering the gas. letting the zerglings up and killing drones is not something you should let happen.
if you decide to expand, then you'll need a lot more zerglings in your natural before you can afford to start hammering the gas. but that's fine since you'll soon get more lings than them with your larva advantage. And thus more zerglings, and so they'll have to play defensively.
yeah, don't build drones. you're already at an econ advantage, you don't need more of one.
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you now have a crapload more zerglings than they do, send a few out to start pressuring/scouting. and your ovies need to be more spread out so you can see where their ling force is.
if you make more zerglings instead of drones, and started pressuring, your opponent will have to waste larva on zerglings instead of mutas, which allows you to delay your evo.
and you just let a bunch of zerglings run right by you. that's what lost you the game right there. it allowed your opponent to force you on the defensive, which opens up their window for mutas.
why are you still making drones? you need zerglings! or scourge, but you don't have a spire. or a lair. come to think of it, why do you have any drones on gas at all if you're not going to use it? hell, do you even have speed? no, you're just getting it now...
the spore placement at your nat... maybe you should try protecting your mineral line, not just your hatchery
goddammit, stop making drones! you have a stupid high drone count in your main already, make some more zerglings!
this is only half over, but i have a feeling i dont need to watch the rest of it if its just you turtling on one base.
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I haven't watched the reps but if you are D- level zerg there are some simple steps to improve.
1. Make sure the macro is as solid as you can make it. Also, learn something about drone management. You don't want to make too few drones or your eco will be horrible later but if you drone whore at the wrong times you could die.
2. Engage in battles intelligently. Try not to suicide a ton of units if you don't have to and attack when it seems advantageous.
3. Scout a lot and don't let the enemy take free bases (especially important in zvp). Actively think about what is going on, like what the enemy is doing, how to counter their army composition, how to take advantage of their position (if they are far away you could try a drop for example).
There is a ton of complexity in the game of course but you need to get basics down before you can really utilize more advanced knowledge.
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On June 30 2010 14:44 nath wrote:
just lost a brutal zvp when i was 5 bases to 2. from wc3 i have really good micro early game but once i have so many fucking units i cant do SHIT with them...i cant engage with a zerg army...with a terran the army is more structured and shit but with zerg its like u have a billion units and you can't really use groups effectively past 100 food.
edit: unless i had more skill...not saying its impossible
You're way too micro-oriented in your zvp replay. Time to drop that wc3 mindset and concentrate on macro.
I'm a D+ zerg. I guess you can consider me a high D if you really want since I consistently lose against D+, but the improvement is there. ZvP is a brutal matchup for newer zergs.Many D tosses will sit in their base, harass the hell out of you, take a third, get about a 150 army, destroy your expansions, and a good portion of them will do mass sair/dt at the end. While this is infuriating to lose to time and again, the protoss is playing to their strengths. Toss units are the strongest in the game, don't expect to defeat their army in a head-on battle.
First, the replay. Going overpool is ok, but the pool was so late you could have morphed the two larva to drones, moved to the expansion and 12 hatched. Granted, most toss on Destination won't let you do that so easily. Sometimes I go to expand after an overpool and find a finished pylon at the nat!
Anyway, you were supply blocked at 18, 27, and 35 before I stopped paying attention. These three alone would cause you to lose against an early zealot push off two bases (which you see most of the time). You were correct to go three hatch off two bases after scouting 1 base tech, but your plan wasn't well-executed. The muta harass was a good call.
Your advertising at the top for killing half the probes was a bit of an overstatement. You killed enough to put some hurt on the toss, but your macro was so off that any advantage you would have won was voided. For the rest of the game your issue was macro, followed at the end by upgrades (3-0-3 toss vs. 1-0/1-1 zerg....OUCH!). You advertised at the top that you "macrod ok to the end" getting 4k/4k or something like that, but whenever I looked back to your base you had idle larva and thousands of resources in the back. Practice makes the macro better. A lot of the times it's the reason I lose a game too, so you're far from alone with this issue.
Your micro is pretty good for a D-. The wc3 experience shining through? With a little more practice you can own a total protoss noob like this one. Their build was very late and their strategy was very unclear. So how did you lose? A massive zeal/goon/archon army plowed through your deficiently upgraded hydra army and took out your expansions. As I said earlier, clashing head on with a huge protoss ball is suicide - zerg units are cheap and weak. However, zerg units generally have equal or higher attack rates than protoss units, so you need to do your damage to the ball and run away before losing too much. You have to whittle them down and continually replace the units you're losing before, during, and after the battle. Any hatchery that has 3 larva for a considerable amount of time is losing potential units.
It feels like I just rambled a bunch of disorganized tips. Sorry about that . Hope it helps some!
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On July 01 2010 02:06 seRapH wrote:
ZvZ:
First things first: your 12pool was significantly delayed, since you threw it down at 250 minerals instead of 200
Now you don't absolutely need to do this, but I would much rather chuck that hatchery down at my natural, since your 12pool lings will still come in time to halt a 9pool.
Block your ramp before concentrating on the gas. only when your have at the very least 4 lings blocking the ramp should you send anything to start hammering the gas. letting the zerglings up and killing drones is not something you should let happen.
if you decide to expand, then you'll need a lot more zerglings in your natural before you can afford to start hammering the gas. but that's fine since you'll soon get more lings than them with your larva advantage. And thus more zerglings, and so they'll have to play defensively.
yeah, don't build drones. you're already at an econ advantage, you don't need more of one.
.
you now have a crapload more zerglings than they do, send a few out to start pressuring/scouting. and your ovies need to be more spread out so you can see where their ling force is.
if you make more zerglings instead of drones, and started pressuring, your opponent will have to waste larva on zerglings instead of mutas, which allows you to delay your evo.
and you just let a bunch of zerglings run right by you. that's what lost you the game right there. it allowed your opponent to force you on the defensive, which opens up their window for mutas.
why are you still making drones? you need zerglings! or scourge, but you don't have a spire. or a lair. come to think of it, why do you have any drones on gas at all if you're not going to use it? hell, do you even have speed? no, you're just getting it now...
the spore placement at your nat... maybe you should try protecting your mineral line, not just your hatchery
goddammit, stop making drones! you have a stupid high drone count in your main already, make some more zerglings!
this is only half over, but i have a feeling i dont need to watch the rest of it if its just you turtling on one base.
actually i believe i get my natural running again and win the first muta fights
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On July 01 2010 08:33 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 14:44 nath wrote:
just lost a brutal zvp when i was 5 bases to 2. from wc3 i have really good micro early game but once i have so many fucking units i cant do SHIT with them...i cant engage with a zerg army...with a terran the army is more structured and shit but with zerg its like u have a billion units and you can't really use groups effectively past 100 food.
edit: unless i had more skill...not saying its impossible You're way too micro-oriented in your zvp replay. Time to drop that wc3 mindset and concentrate on macro. I'm a D+ zerg. I guess you can consider me a high D if you really want since I consistently lose against D+, but the improvement is there. ZvP is a brutal matchup for newer zergs.Many D tosses will sit in their base, harass the hell out of you, take a third, get about a 150 army, destroy your expansions, and a good portion of them will do mass sair/dt at the end. While this is infuriating to lose to time and again, the protoss is playing to their strengths. Toss units are the strongest in the game, don't expect to defeat their army in a head-on battle. First, the replay. Going overpool is ok, but the pool was so late you could have morphed the two larva to drones, moved to the expansion and 12 hatched. Granted, most toss on Destination won't let you do that so easily. Sometimes I go to expand after an overpool and find a finished pylon at the nat! Anyway, you were supply blocked at 18, 27, and 35 before I stopped paying attention. These three alone would cause you to lose against an early zealot push off two bases (which you see most of the time). You were correct to go three hatch off two bases after scouting 1 base tech, but your plan wasn't well-executed. The muta harass was a good call. Your advertising at the top for killing half the probes was a bit of an overstatement. You killed enough to put some hurt on the toss, but your macro was so off that any advantage you would have won was voided. For the rest of the game your issue was macro, followed at the end by upgrades (3-0-3 toss vs. 1-0/1-1 zerg....OUCH!). You advertised at the top that you "macrod ok to the end" getting 4k/4k or something like that, but whenever I looked back to your base you had idle larva and thousands of resources in the back. Practice makes the macro better. A lot of the times it's the reason I lose a game too, so you're far from alone with this issue. Your micro is pretty good for a D-. The wc3 experience shining through? With a little more practice you can own a total protoss noob like this one. Their build was very late and their strategy was very unclear. So how did you lose? A massive zeal/goon/archon army plowed through your deficiently upgraded hydra army and took out your expansions. As I said earlier, clashing head on with a huge protoss ball is suicide - zerg units are cheap and weak. However, zerg units generally have equal or higher attack rates than protoss units, so you need to do your damage to the ball and run away before losing too much. You have to whittle them down and continually replace the units you're losing before, during, and after the battle. Any hatchery that has 3 larva for a considerable amount of time is losing potential units. It feels like I just rambled a bunch of disorganized tips. Sorry about that . Hope it helps some! yeah i meant macroed well until a certain point, i think after i got my 4th up/5th building it got out of hand.
yeah my micro will be ok since i played at a decently high level in wc3, maybe zerg isn't the race for me. also i know what you mean about upgrades; they are way more important in sc...in war3 its almost always more useful to have more units but here the upgrades really matter and you need to keep up with your opponent.
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On July 01 2010 10:17 nath wrote:
yeah my micro will be ok since i played at a decently high level in wc3, maybe zerg isn't the race for me. also i know what you mean about upgrades; they are way more important in sc...in war3 its almost always more useful to have more units but here the upgrades really matter and you need to keep up with your opponent.
The race for you is the one you enjoy playing the most. You've really got to enjoy them because you'll be getting to know them VERY well. Personally, I love zerg because they're freakin scary! When you're getting attacked it's not some organized strike, rather, a series of horrific waves weakening the opponent to the point of collapse. The zerg economy is slow to get going, but once it's rolling it's really hard to stop.
Other than that you'll run into issues on mechanics no matter which race you choose. Terran build orders are very precise and require a lot of attention to unit placement and strategic positioning. Zerg is the macro race, as you know by now. Protoss has a little of both, but has very particular parts of the game where they are at their strongest. Protoss is definitely more noob-friendly, as it takes less time to develop the proper mechanics. However, they are behind the strategic learning curve when they get to the D+/C- level. Stick with what you like, and have fun!
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well in wc3 i played orc, in sc2 i played terran, none of these really is like zerg.
orc is like a race that depends more heavily on micro and aggression. there is also little strategic variety.
this seems like terran in sc1 where there *CAN BE* little strategic variety while still playing at a high level if you want (Idra, Mind, oldFlash, etc)
micro and aggression might be elements of protoss however
engaging with a zerg army is just so hard, as you said i need to do damage and run away, i can't do that, i want to fight a straight up battle and kill them lol...(if my army is equal or greater)
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On July 01 2010 13:33 nath wrote:
this seems like terran in sc1 where there *CAN BE* little strategic variety while still playing at a high level if you want (Idra, Mind, oldFlash, etc)
micro and aggression might be elements of protoss however
engaging with a zerg army is just so hard, as you said i need to do damage and run away, i can't do that, i want to fight a straight up battle and kill them lol...(if my army is equal or greater)
Engaging with any army is hard. Positioning, amount, microing army while macroing, forming a plan and making split-second decisions are all basic emelents of the game. If you want as little strategy as possible AND playing at a high level go back to wc3.
Honestly, if you want to 1a2a3a your army into the enemy you'll have more success with protoss since they have the strongest army to hit head-on, but that's only against players that don't know what they're doing. Last night I played a protoss who exemplified the approach you want to take. FE vs. 5hat hyrdra. They opened 2 stargate sairs, and unfortuantely I didn't scout the second stargate and had a bunch of overlords raped. A player that knows how to use their advantage will build a bunch more gateways and ravage my third with a control group of +1 speedlots. Instead, they 1a'd a control group of slow, unupgraded lots into my third and I repelled it with only losing 2 sunken colonies. To their credit, they expanded with the advantage, but they approached the battle wrong every time. I won most of them with constant unit production, upgrades, and unit positioning. Unfortunately I was at such an economic deficit that in the time I caught up and rebuilt dead drones the toss teched to carriers. They spent all their time microing them, and losing a bunch to my superior macro and strategic fighting. They won purely based on a superior economy and lackluster macro, something I could have capitalized on had I not lost so many overlords.
Players like this can hit D+ with only a few months of casual practice, but if their harass fails and they can't get the economic advantage they're screwed seven ways from sunday. Is that really what you want to be?
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My point of view: i got my gas stolen in zvz,
can not stop laughing
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i switched back to terran the last 2 days and went from 800 to 1200 again...might just stick with T and go for D+.
i know it sounds retarded, dont flame, but i honestly can't tvz for my life lol...im a ton better at tvp and kinda bad but ok for my level at tvt
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EPT
