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[SC2]Zergs are playing horrible late game ZvT

Blogs > avilo
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1 2 Next All
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
May 31 2010 06:41 GMT
#1
I was watching some iccup tv games, and I managed to catch a qxc vs sheth game that went into late game.

QXC was turtling hard with T mech, playing a good solid style, and sheth had also macro'd up and had a gigantic lead.

Now we all are reading/hearing lots of whining about T mech versus Z, but here is where I have a huge problem:

Zergs are playing bad and stubborn late game.

Yes, bold statement, but it's true. I said it weeks ago, but Zergs still refuse to abuse the true potential of nydus canals, and that qxc vs sheth game was clearly the situation where you need to go nydus vs T mech or drop - which sheth did try a drop, except he hesitated and paid for it.

Now, Sheth had a huge bankroll in this game of minerals/gas and was maxed with max larva at his hatches so he could re-max after suiciding his army.

He spent over 6k/6k+ in suiciding his army over and over into qxc's mech defense.

Enter Zerg whining in chat after that. Then the next problem is people saying "ultra's suck" and not realizing their reasoning is entirely incorrect.

Ultras "suck" in SC1 also if you suicide over and over into sieged tanks. Ultras are the same deal here...of course they suck if you're going to suicide into sieged tanks.

The next stage of ZvT late game is mass nydus worms. Called it here first. If I played Zerg this is what I would be doing:

Going into late game macro game versus mech, and then getting 10-20 nydus worms. Does not matter if they have sensor towers.

Rather than wasting 6k+ minerals/gas worth of units stubbornly suiciding into the ball, why not spend just around 2k/2k minerals/gas into 20 nydus worms, put them all on 1 hotkey, and then in late game, literally spawn all 20 at once in 20 diff locations.

That is the key now to late game ZvT versus mech especially. You will not be able to stop all of the nydus worms, especially with T immobility.

Called it here. Stop playing bad, and build nydus worms Zergs!

***
Sup
Antiochus
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada548 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-31 06:50:48
May 31 2010 06:49 GMT
#2
This whole idea is just hilarious and I fully endorse it. Defintly trying it out the next time i get into a ZvT late game where T is just turtling.

I mean you dont even need 20 of them just 1 going up at each expo.
All play and no work makes Jack unemployed.
deth
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Australia1757 Posts
May 31 2010 06:50 GMT
#3
Exactly what I've been advocating. 5/5 man
Failsafe
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States1298 Posts
May 31 2010 06:51 GMT
#4
lol

i have no idea if performing the nydus abuse you describe is a foundation for late game zerg play. your idea is pretty cool but i'm not sure that using 20 nydus canals should determine the quality of your play.

i do agree that everyone is bad at late game play. wonder why that is
MrBitter: Phoenixes... They're like flying hellions. Always cost efficient.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
May 31 2010 06:57 GMT
#5
it sounds hilarious and like it would be something "funny" but I am completely serious.
Anyone that has played Zero Hour knows the power of tunnels.

And watching sheth vs QXC where sheth has 11k/8k and only 2 nydus networks is making me cringe!!! both are playing good though

Sup
condoriano
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States826 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-31 07:02:23
May 31 2010 06:58 GMT
#6
Try it yourself first, calling someone out on "whining" while they have to deal with the hardest thing in whole sc2 is a bit stupid. It's like playing a zvt on destination, if T doesn't fuck up there is no good way of winning.

On May 31 2010 15:57 avilo wrote:
it sounds hilarious and like it would be something "funny" but I am completely serious.
Anyone that has played Zero Hour knows the power of tunnels.

And watching sheth vs QXC where sheth has 11k/8k and only 2 nydus networks is making me cringe!!! both are playing good though



Drops don't do shit in this game, don't exaggerate. I'm not sure about the tunnels, but you won't have that many units to send everywhere, you will be supply blocked and it still wouldn't be enough to do that. 2 supply units suck and get obliterated in small numbers. It could work but is this an only way to win? How can you always depend on something like this lol. Basically you are saying there is no other way to beat mech (which i agree with).
Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat?
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
May 31 2010 06:58 GMT
#7
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iccup-tv

game 5 is going on right now, and sheth is actually in great position. So is QXC of course. Still only 2 nydus netwroks though
Sup
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
May 31 2010 06:59 GMT
#8
On May 31 2010 15:58 condoriano wrote:
Try it yourself first, calling someone out on "whining" while they have to deal with the hardest thing in whole sc2 is a bit stupid. It's like playing a zvt on destination, if T doesn't fuck up there is no good way of winning.


I do not play Zerg, but if I did it is exactly what I would be doing right now. And no Zerg in SC2 on earth is doing it right now.

Yet.
Sup
CCGaunt
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States417 Posts
May 31 2010 06:59 GMT
#9
Zerg late game is a bit underbalanced compared to other races in certain situations, but I really like your ideas.

Nydus worms as new recall drops, whattt?!

Could have some really interesting play.
Take me to Korea
faction123
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia949 Posts
May 31 2010 07:03 GMT
#10
so what if they counterattack with their far superior army and float a building instead of trying to deal with 20 attacks at once?
NA Legend - stream: http://twitch.tv/faction60
condoriano
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States826 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-31 07:06:40
May 31 2010 07:05 GMT
#11
On May 31 2010 16:03 faction123 wrote:
so what if they counterattack with their far superior army and float a building instead of trying to deal with 20 attacks at once?


If T plays good he shouldn't be losing to this, there are 1000 things T can do. Ravens will help to defend with minimal losses too.

The only decent counter I've seen this far was Idra vs some terran, he massed broodlord/corruptors and broke tank/viking. But if t made ravens there was no way for that to happen.
Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat?
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
May 31 2010 07:10 GMT
#12
Yep just finished sheth and qxc game 5 and i totally agree with mass nydus worm harassment
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
May 31 2010 07:13 GMT
#13
i was banned from the ITL chat. I lol'd
Sup
Beyonder
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands15103 Posts
May 31 2010 07:14 GMT
#14
There is a substantial problem with this though: terrans have learned to put turrents everywhere, and keep some tanks back. Spawning nydus is next to impossible then on many maps. They are even planetary fortressing in their main on an extra CC...
Moderator
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
May 31 2010 07:28 GMT
#15
On May 31 2010 16:14 Beyonder wrote:
There is a substantial problem with this though: terrans have learned to put turrents everywhere, and keep some tanks back. Spawning nydus is next to impossible then on many maps. They are even planetary fortressing in their main on an extra CC...


Yep. But just because someone can defend something does not mean you do not do it. People keep using the logic, "oh, he is 100% defended, it's not even worth trying..."

Instead, by building that many nydus worms you're forcing Terran to spread more thin, and doing essentially what you always want to be doing - concentrating all of your force at one point.

With T army spread in diff places to "stop" this type of thing, it means your 200 supply ground is concentrated versus their split up force. Meaning you are free to kill supply depots, turrets, and whatever else little infrastructure there is or army is there at that location.

Once T finally re-routes their army to stop your units, you've already done damage and can get back in the worm, and re-pop out to another location all the way across the map. It's impossible for Terran mech to teleport, whereas with this type of late game Z play, like mentioned here it is a lot like SC1 TvP recalls, except with infinite energy, and the ability to re-max to 200/200 with accumulated larva at hatcheries.

and with something extreme like 10-20 nydus worms, you're going to be able to hit a hell of a lot of places and get 1 worm through. No one plays so perfect as to stop that many right now.

Sup
Grend
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1600 Posts
May 31 2010 07:44 GMT
#16
ThatS 2000/2000 worth of nydus.. A Worm only drops 1 unit at a time.
If youre going all in like this, wouldnt a doom drop be better? Terran ground beats zerg ground lategame anyway so when you end up losing your force youve also emptied your bank maling worms. You also need vision to worm so you would need ol everywhere - couple of vikings = trouble.
♞ Against the Wind - Bob Seger ♞
Motiva
Profile Joined November 2007
United States1774 Posts
May 31 2010 07:45 GMT
#17
Easier said than done sir.
Squallcloud
Profile Joined February 2008
France466 Posts
May 31 2010 07:55 GMT
#18
Saw the last match, oh the agony, zerg suiciding again and again and again in the terran ball.
He tried some nydus but didn't work really well.
I agree with the casters that mass corruptors broodlors was the answer, it's qxc air force that was the problem, with about 14kmin and 8k gaz money wasn't a problem.
Firebathero fanboy - It's not that i'm dumb i'm just controlled by a retarded infestor - Day[9]
MrStorkie
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom697 Posts
May 31 2010 07:59 GMT
#19
doom drop no longer works vs a terran who masses vikings + ravens..
Sheth did try a doom drop but it failed horribly... i think he managed to get away with overlords at 1hp from 2 HSMs
1a2a3a4z5z6d7d8d9p0p
Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
May 31 2010 08:05 GMT
#20
Yeah, after seeing that series I just don't see it happening. Good terrans are just using sensor towers really well, have turrets all around the map and have tanks nicely positioned around corners.

Once he gets ravens on 3-4 bases it's jsut over. I feel like I've tried everything.... I've even tried slow pushing across the map with spore crawlers. I've tried NPing the Ravens themselves but in the off chance that the terran gets sloppy and isolates his air army from his thors/turrets and I actually do manage to get a raven WHILE throwing down a Point defense drone with it, vikings actually eat them up fairly quickly. Zergs really can't do anything cute here...

I feel that the entire ZvT mech match up is just dependent on the terran getting his third base. As soon as he gets his third base that is when he really amasses enough units so that he can just leave just enough at his bases to make them impossible to break. I think this is why we need to get mutas to force him to get more thors than necessary, to force him to build a line of turrets to his third to delay that as soon as possible. And it's at this point where the terran is most vulernable to drops and a tech switch to roaches. Delay, harass, drop, pick off, while powering hard to broodlords and corruptors.

But yeah, it's not the thors that are the problems, or even vikings. It's point defense drones. It literally neuters every single attack that the zerg has in its arsenal. It provides supreme air control.
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
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