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I'm not what you can call a mass gamer. I never got more than 150 games during one season when i used to play on Iccup.
That's mostly because i need to be in a "good" mood to ladder and i need to warm up.
If people are around me, if i'm worried, if i have exams during the week etc ... i usually don't ladder and just play a couple of 2v2.
However when i'm in what i call a "competitive" mood, i can play 20+ game one day and then stop completly during the next week.
So what's the problem ?
Many people have already complained about Sc2 having a stupid division system or the lack of channels, but what makes me really mad is that retarded bonus pool system.
I feel that Blizzard designed this game to be played casually like 4-5 games every 4-5 days because of that stupid bonus pool.
I really don't understand why you have to wait to get your +44pts wins whereas a legit mass gamer or someone like me who doesn't play often but enjoy long sessions only get half once they have cleared the bonus.
It gets really annoying when you have a ~ 30-15 and still are 80pts behind someone with 22-18 because of the bonus pool.
What i like with broodwar ladders is that you could play when you wanted now i feel that you have to mass games or to play only when you have a full bonus pool.
There are many things wrong with the Beta atm and i really hope that Blizzard will fix this problem too because it is frustrating to get +14 because you enjoy long sessions. Some people will answer that i have to play more but i'm not writing this just because i'm too lazy to play an extra couple of games.
Nah i really think that this system makes the ladder biased especially at the top where the win/loss ratio needs to be high ( no before flaming i'm not talking about my 1500 gold but more like 1800+ plat ).
/rant.
P-S: Actually it is way worse than the Motw system on iccup. You could get a +30% now it is like +100% -.-
 
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I think it's a good system that allows hardcore players the ability to dominate the ladder but also gives people with less time on their hands the ability to stay competitive.
It's similar to the experience bonus in WoW (if they even still have that, I dunno) that you accumulated when logged off.
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On May 20 2010 07:54 Piy wrote:
I think it's a good system that allows hardcore players the ability to dominate the ladder but also gives people with less time on their hands the ability to stay competitive.
It's similar to the experience bonus in WoW (if they even still have that, I dunno) that you accumulated when logged off.
And if you are in between ? :/
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On May 20 2010 07:56 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 07:54 Piy wrote:
I think it's a good system that allows hardcore players the ability to dominate the ladder but also gives people with less time on their hands the ability to stay competitive.
It's similar to the experience bonus in WoW (if they even still have that, I dunno) that you accumulated when logged off. And if you are in between ? :/
Then you still benefit from the bonus system.
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Um, unless you are CAPPING OUT your bonus pool for not playing in ages then you gain the same bonus as they do. Its based on hours on your account, whether or not you play during them I believe. The guy 22-18 probably played high ranked players and so they are higher rated. In any case, if you gain more points due to bonus pool, and player higher rated players, you were eventually drop back to what you should be without bonus.
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I really don't have a problem with bonus pool. I'm *fairly* sure that even if you are playing 24/7 you still accumulate the same amount of bonus pool as someone who is offline for a few days. (Only difference is their bonus pool is actually a POOL, whereas mass gamers would be getting 1 bonus pool every so often, and then using it) Mass gamers will still remain on the top, right?
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yeah, the bonus pool system is really scaring me off from longer sessions, even though i tell myself its only beta. if they gave us larger bonus pools or just scrapped the whole thing i'd enjoy it a lot more. or if icc got a server running :D
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I don't think it is the bonus pool that is the problem, it's more the "favoured" system and how it allocates points for wins and takes away points for losses. It seems you generally always lose very few points, and gain a lot in my experience so far. The bonus pool itself isn't very big.
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On May 20 2010 07:58 Kong John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 07:56 Boblion wrote:On May 20 2010 07:54 Piy wrote:
I think it's a good system that allows hardcore players the ability to dominate the ladder but also gives people with less time on their hands the ability to stay competitive.
It's similar to the experience bonus in WoW (if they even still have that, I dunno) that you accumulated when logged off. And if you are in between ? :/ Then you still benefit from the bonus system.
Yeah and that's why 22-18 had more points than my 30-15.
Read the OP please.
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On May 20 2010 07:58 Kong John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 07:56 Boblion wrote:On May 20 2010 07:54 Piy wrote:
I think it's a good system that allows hardcore players the ability to dominate the ladder but also gives people with less time on their hands the ability to stay competitive.
It's similar to the experience bonus in WoW (if they even still have that, I dunno) that you accumulated when logged off. And if you are in between ? :/ Then you still benefit from the bonus system.
That is correct. I don't see why people are complaining.
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Presumably your rating will stabilize at a certain number if you play a huge number of games and your skill doesn't change as you're playing them. I don't think the bonus pool affects this number (except in the very short term; it can temporarily push you above but not by very many points) -> if your rating gets higher than it should be, you lose more per loss and get less per win without bonus points. I suppose if you only played when you had enough bonus points to double the reward for any potential win you could stabilize at a slightly higher rating maybe.
Bonus points certainly get you up to your stable rating faster.
But I don't actually know how the system works. If it doesn't work this way then it seems broken to me.
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As far as I know, everyone gets the same amount of bonus pool points no matter when they decide to play and use them. You aren't penalized in any way for mass gaming, and people who only play with bonus points aren't getting any advantage in the standings. At 30-15, you received just as many bonus points as the guy who's 22-18 (or you will after you use your current bonus points if you haven't yet); if you're below him on the ladder, it's just because he played better opponents.
The bonus pool system allows people to increase their rating without actually becoming any better. Without it, an average gamer who improved at an average rate would always remain at 1000, which isn't very encouraging. With bonus, everyone gets to keep moving up ~100 points a week by winning 50% of the time.
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I can't be sure that I comprehend,
The workings of the bonus pool,
Receive a raft of points to commend,
And to reward me for going to school?
Yet I'm a man of many vices,
Sit down to play, force noobs to GG,
but soon when left to my own devices,
Find myself loading up Bad Company
I guess then what I'm trying to say,
Is that some of us need the bonus,
Because we don't get the chance to play,
Often enough so that pros don't own us
It doesn't make the bonus pool right,
But goes some way to help our plight
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Now i don't really get it.
The maximum point i have got after a win was +44 ( didn't ladder for one week and i played vs a favoured opponent ).
But when my bonus pool is empty i get like something like +14.
So you are all saying that i also benefit from the bonus but why would i risk to lose 5-10 points for 14 when i can wait two days and get a +30-44 ?
When you start to get better competition i think it makes the ladder biased.
I mean let's say you have a 50% win ratio your expected point value after one match if you have an empty bonus pool is like 14-5 or 14-10 ~ 5-10 pts.
If your bonus pool is full it is at least twice. After clearing the bonus you have almost no incentive to play more.
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On May 20 2010 08:21 Boblion wrote:
Now i don't really get it.
The maximum point i have got after a win was +44 ( didn't ladder for one week and i played vs a favoured opponent ).
But when my bonus pool is empty i get like something like +14.
So you are all saying that i also benefit from the bonus but why would i risk to lose 5-10 points for 14 when i can wait two days and get a +30-44 ?
When you start to get better competition i think it makes the ladder biased.
I mean let's say you have a 50% win ratio your expected point value after one match if you have an empty bonus pool is like 14-5 or 14-10 ~ 5-10 pts.
If your bonus pool is full it is at least twice. After clearing the bonus you have almost no incentive to play more.
Maybe you can play because Starcraft 2 is fun? Who only plays SC2 to get to the top of the ladder, but doesn't even enjoy it?
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I think the only thing the bonus pool discourages is getting to the top of the ladder, and then staying there without playing any more games because their bonus points will accumulate without being used. So it's pretty much like rank decay, as seen in wc3 ladder, except more of a "loss of opportunity gain" instead of an outright loss, making it seem nicer and more positive than any kind of exp decay. Which is actually a pretty good idea if you think about it...
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well, that was unexpected and awesome... (edit: sonnet's post)
The person with less wins and more points then you is not because of the bonus pool system, that is simply how the ladder works, they are playing higher level players then you. Matchmaking happens based on a hidden number in the background, and then points are allocated based on a comparison of the visible numbers.
example, I play and show I am at 1600 in the invisible ranking system, I will be playing other 1600 ranked players, who generally will have 1600 pts. If I am only 1100 though because I just started into the plat league, then I will be getting 20-24 pts a win until I am at the 1600 level, at which point I will level out to the standard 12. If you are generally playing against people favored, the system is trying to boost you up, if you are generally favored the system is checking to see if you need to be lowered down.
Bonus points are simply a flat bonus amount of points added to everybody's pool over time (they just happen to be added when you win). You have accumilated the same number of bonus points as the other people who started the same time as you (it may even give a starting pool of bonus points based on how old the division is)
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On May 20 2010 08:26 GenesisX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 08:21 Boblion wrote:
Now i don't really get it.
The maximum point i have got after a win was +44 ( didn't ladder for one week and i played vs a favoured opponent ).
But when my bonus pool is empty i get like something like +14.
So you are all saying that i also benefit from the bonus but why would i risk to lose 5-10 points for 14 when i can wait two days and get a +30-44 ?
When you start to get better competition i think it makes the ladder biased.
I mean let's say you have a 50% win ratio your expected point value after one match if you have an empty bonus pool is like 14-5 or 14-10 ~ 5-10 pts.
If your bonus pool is full it is at least twice. After clearing the bonus you have almost no incentive to play more.
Maybe you can play because Starcraft 2 is fun? Who only plays SC2 to get to the top of the ladder, but doesn't even enjoy it?
Laddering is mostly about achieving a rank ( even if it is modest ). If i want to play for fun i can always make a private game with my friends 
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I like it because it encourages people to play different game types. You don't have to play one game type constantly to maintain your position. Besides, can't be letting those bonus points go to waste! I can't wait for 3v3 and 4v4 ladders... hopefully they institute one for FFA as well.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2010 08:03 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 07:58 Kong John wrote:On May 20 2010 07:56 Boblion wrote:On May 20 2010 07:54 Piy wrote:
I think it's a good system that allows hardcore players the ability to dominate the ladder but also gives people with less time on their hands the ability to stay competitive.
It's similar to the experience bonus in WoW (if they even still have that, I dunno) that you accumulated when logged off. And if you are in between ? :/ Then you still benefit from the bonus system. Yeah and that's why 22-18 had more points than my 30-15. Read the OP please.
Do you have any guarantee that the difference doesn't have to do with him having more wins against better players or less losses against worse players?
IMO the bonus pool was implemented to combat a problem that occurred in WoW arenas, which was that people who had reached a certain point on the ladder (say, top of their battlegroup) would stop playing for fear of losing their spot. This way, you're incentivized to play at least enough to consume your bonus pool, because a player worse than you that's consuming more of his bonus pool points will still rise to a higher rating than you.
On May 20 2010 08:34 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 08:26 GenesisX wrote:On May 20 2010 08:21 Boblion wrote:
Now i don't really get it.
The maximum point i have got after a win was +44 ( didn't ladder for one week and i played vs a favoured opponent ).
But when my bonus pool is empty i get like something like +14.
So you are all saying that i also benefit from the bonus but why would i risk to lose 5-10 points for 14 when i can wait two days and get a +30-44 ?
When you start to get better competition i think it makes the ladder biased.
I mean let's say you have a 50% win ratio your expected point value after one match if you have an empty bonus pool is like 14-5 or 14-10 ~ 5-10 pts.
If your bonus pool is full it is at least twice. After clearing the bonus you have almost no incentive to play more.
Maybe you can play because Starcraft 2 is fun? Who only plays SC2 to get to the top of the ladder, but doesn't even enjoy it? Laddering is mostly about achieving a rank ( even if it is modest ). If i want to play for fun i can always make a private game with my friends
Laddering is about improving at the game. To that end, the entire rating system is just a facade to make stats-conscious people feel good about themselves, because it's not even used for the real matchmaking (purportedly, another hidden rating is used for that purpose).
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I agree that the bonus pool system isn't appropriate. I don't really how it operates particularly, it just doesn't seem to fit what a ladder is. In WoW, it makes sense to have rest experience to help casual players keep up with other players who put more time in. Everyone's trying to get to level whatever and not everyone wants to put in a huge amount of time played in order to get there.
A ladder like the one in SC2 doesn't really seem to benefit from a rest experience system like the bonus pool. It's hard for me to understand what motivated Blizzard to put it in. Why not just have a winning streak bonus so that people whose rating is below their level of play can reach their appropriate level more quickly? What does a rest experience system do? I don't see how it can benefit casual players in the same way that a rest experience system benefits players in WoW.
If anything, giving casual players extra points is just gonna make it easier for casual players to end up getting matched with non-casual players. Then the casual players will lose more often. If anything it seems like the bonus pool system is a bad alternative to something like a win streak system for awarding rating
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It actually is a great system!
- First of all it helps casual gamers to be somewhat able to keep up with hardcore gamers.
- Also because everybody accumulates a bonus pool it effectively inflates the ranking system, which means that even if you do not improve your skill at all, you still will be able to steadily increase your points' count over time; and this is a great incentive for players to continue laddering! (an example: in iCCup you were stuck at a certain rank, say C+, and you simply were not good enough to gain a higher rank. In Bnet 2.0 you might get stuck at say rank 40 in you division with 1400 points in the beginning, but due to the inflation of points your ranking will certainly increase over time! If you do not improve you will be still rank 40 in your div, but your points will increase to say 1600, which will give you a feeling of accomplishment!
On May 20 2010 07:52 Boblion wrote:
I really don't understand why you have to wait to get your +44pts wins whereas a legit mass gamer or someone like me who doesn't play often but enjoy long sessions only get half once they have cleared the bonus. It gets really annoying when you have a ~ 30-15 and still are 80pts behind someone with 22-18 because of the bonus pool.
As far as I am aware there is no bonus pool ceiling in the beta, thus everybody (mass gamer or casual gamer) will accumulate the exact same amount of bonus points in the same time window. Also you always generate bonus points, mass gamers just use them so fast that they cannot accumulate. So mass gamers (or people like you) will get only a few bonus points every other game while casual gamers will get a massive bonus plus the few games they play, but in the end all of you will have gained the exact same amount of bonus points (if you have finished your placement matches at the same time)
Also the stats discrepancy you describe may derive from many different reasons. An example would be that the people with more wins have been matched against less favored opponents for some reason.
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On May 20 2010 08:37 TheYango wrote:
Laddering is about improving at the game. To that end, the entire rating system is just a facade to make stats-conscious people feel good about themselves, because it's not even used for the real matchmaking (purportedly, another hidden rating is used for that purpose).
I don't at all agree that laddering is for improving. Having practice partners to let you practice what you want to practice is far more productive than laddering to improve in most cases. The only thing the ladder offers over having good practice partners is more diversity (well, and it's far easier to just start up a ladder match than it is to find a good practice partner).
Of course with no real prizes the ladder isn't really about being competitive either. It's quite possible Blizz will have real prizes for top performers after release though.
It's mainly just there as a way to quickly find someone at about your level to play a game of SC against for fun.
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You are totally wrong about how the bonus pool system works. Everyone gets it at the exact same pace. You still get it while you are playing. Sometimes I have a long session and in the middle of it I will get 1 bonus pool point.
You can't compare records and ELO points. People with the exact same record would have different ELOs even without the bonus pool. That's because you get different amount of points depending on your opponent strength.
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the bonus system would benefit people like u...why complain...wtf
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2010 09:02 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 08:37 TheYango wrote:
Laddering is about improving at the game. To that end, the entire rating system is just a facade to make stats-conscious people feel good about themselves, because it's not even used for the real matchmaking (purportedly, another hidden rating is used for that purpose). I don't at all agree that laddering is for improving. Having practice partners to let you practice what you want to practice is far more productive than laddering to improve in most cases. The only thing the ladder offers over having good practice partners is more diversity (well, and it's far easier to just start up a ladder match than it is to find a good practice partner). Of course with no real prizes the ladder isn't really about being competitive either. It's quite possible Blizz will have real prizes for top performers after release though. It's mainly just there as a way to quickly find someone at about your level to play a game of SC against for fun.
Fair enough. The point still stands that your displayed rating has absolutely nothing to do with the matchmaking system's ability to do this though.
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United States43168 Posts
On May 20 2010 08:21 Boblion wrote:
Now i don't really get it.
The maximum point i have got after a win was +44 ( didn't ladder for one week and i played vs a favoured opponent ).
But when my bonus pool is empty i get like something like +14.
So you are all saying that i also benefit from the bonus but why would i risk to lose 5-10 points for 14 when i can wait two days and get a +30-44 ?
When you start to get better competition i think it makes the ladder biased.
I mean let's say you have a 50% win ratio your expected point value after one match if you have an empty bonus pool is like 14-5 or 14-10 ~ 5-10 pts.
If your bonus pool is full it is at least twice. After clearing the bonus you have almost no incentive to play more.
If you play 20 games over 2 weeks at an average of 1-2 a day you'll accumulate X bonus points. If each Sunday you play 10 games you'll still have the same score with the same bonus points. The first guy will get a +1-2 bonus on each of his games while the second guy will get a +20ish bonus on the first game of each of his sessions. But pointswise they'll be exactly the same.
The only time it makes a huge difference is when someone starts in a lower league and ranks up. Because there you get a direct reduction from your points which means you "wasted" the bonus points getting leagued up. If you started in gold that'd explain the situation.
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I don't think you understand the bonus system.
It doesn't matter how long your sessions are or how often you play. As I understand it everyone gains bonus points at the same rate no matter how often you play.
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It seems like the bonus pool is primarily there to encourage players who are not improving compared to their peers. Their points still increase. It also encourages players who are at the top to keep playing because they are getting extra points from the bonus pool. I've seen it said that the purpose of the bonus pool is to let inactive players get an extra catch up boost in the face of points inflation, but it seems like the bonus pool itself is one of the main sources of inflation. Intuitively it feels like the bonus pool is a completely useless element, but it's hard to say without more trasparency about how the entire ladder works.
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Calgary25986 Posts
I only play about 3 games 2 times a week, so the bonus pool is amazing for me.
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EPT
