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What's on Your Mind?

Blogs > mmp
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
May 09 2010 13:03 GMT
#1
I want to know what's on your mind.

I'm bored and I think you can help me. People get their kicks in different ways. Some comb threads with the intent to troll and observe the subsequent arguments that develop; I prefer to do the arguing. The "General" thread usually has some snippet of news, politics, or philosophy to jump on, but I'm not seeing anything good right now (just kpop and manga shit).

So for my own amusement (to hell with yours), please post a comment with any statement or question of a controversial nature and the side you would like me to defend and I will make a case. Fair subjects include (but are not limited to): anything and everything.

I'm happy to do research and educate myself, but please be accommodating if a wealth of knowledge in a particular field is necessary. I already know what I believe, but I'm more curious what's on your mind.

An example, pulled from a recent TL thread, "Defend (through moral reconciliation) the Belgian legislation to ban the wearing of burkas in public." news link

Or a silly example, "Prove that Koreans are genetically superior at Starcraft." I doubt I would be able to find necessary information to hold such a claim but I'd do the research and offer an argument, however meaningless or tongue-in-cheek it may result. For the lulz.

Bring it on!

*
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43972 Posts
May 09 2010 13:06 GMT
#2
Make a case against GM crops/livestock created through deliberate selective breeding for traits.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
May 09 2010 13:11 GMT
#3
On May 09 2010 22:06 KwarK wrote:
Make a case against GM crops/livestock created through deliberate selective breeding for traits.


This is far better than I was expecting to receive from a first post. Thank you, I'll take your case.

... (in progress)
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
x2fst
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
1272 Posts
May 09 2010 13:52 GMT
#4
Make a point in favor of settlers land rights in countries with displaced indigenous populations like the USA or Australia.
muda, is a crime for me to wear a shirt, cos I is so good lookin
HCastorp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States388 Posts
May 09 2010 13:53 GMT
#5
On May 09 2010 22:06 KwarK wrote:
Make a case against GM crops/livestock created through deliberate selective breeding for traits.


Maybe I'm dumb. But isn't GM usually used to mean crops/livestock created through genetic engineering, as opposed to simply selecting breeding pairs?
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
May 09 2010 14:12 GMT
#6
On May 09 2010 22:53 HCastorp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 22:06 KwarK wrote:
Make a case against GM crops/livestock created through deliberate selective breeding for traits.


Maybe I'm dumb. But isn't GM usually used to mean crops/livestock created through genetic engineering, as opposed to simply selecting breeding pairs?


This is correct. GMO's are genetically engineered. Selective breeding has been done since agriculture was created, the veggies and crops that you eat today are made by man, and not by nature and natural selection.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
May 09 2010 14:38 GMT
#7
The US government planned the 9/11 attacks, planned detonation man.

Discuss.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
airtown
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States410 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 14:49:02
May 09 2010 14:44 GMT
#8
Make a case that our sense of morality is culturally acquired, not innate.

Edit: Also, make a case that it's innate, not culturally acquired.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
HCastorp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States388 Posts
May 09 2010 14:47 GMT
#9
On May 09 2010 23:44 4iner wrote:
Make a case that our sense of morality is culturally acquired, not inane.

Edit: Also, make a case that it's inane, not culturally acquired.


I think you mean innate:

inane [ɪˈneɪn]
adj
senseless, unimaginative, or empty; unintelligent inane remarks
airtown
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States410 Posts
May 09 2010 14:49 GMT
#10
On May 09 2010 23:47 HCastorp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 23:44 4iner wrote:
Make a case that our sense of morality is culturally acquired, not inane.

Edit: Also, make a case that it's inane, not culturally acquired.


I think you mean innate:

inane [ɪˈneɪn]
adj
senseless, unimaginative, or empty; unintelligent inane remarks


Lol thx, must be too early in the morning for me.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
HCastorp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States388 Posts
May 09 2010 14:54 GMT
#11
Making a case that our sense of morality is inane would be fun too though :p
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
May 09 2010 14:57 GMT
#12
I'm almost done with Kwark's, wrapping things up at a good 1000 words. Just a minute...
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
ZBiR
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
Poland1092 Posts
May 09 2010 15:04 GMT
#13
Prove that making threads like this isn't pointless using known cases and own experience.
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 15:47:44
May 09 2010 15:26 GMT
#14
On May 09 2010 22:06 KwarK wrote:
Make a case against GM crops/livestock created through deliberate selective breeding for traits.


You specify that the modification in question is simply the selective breeding of existing species. I think it's ambiguous whether or not you intended to include genetic engineering as an objectionable modification - it is distinct from the vanilla old-fashioned techniques of breeding, but I will assume you meant GM to include direct manipulation of genetic material and traditional (Mendel-style selection) breeding.

In biological engineering, the state of the art gives us the ability to very handily say exactly how much of which proteins we would like to be expressed in a resultant strain. The state of the art also allows us to enumerate and verify that we've gotten exactly what we hoped for in the genetic code. This is the (arguably, but for the sake of this discussion) easy part, and this growing field tackles work of this scale on a daily basis.

The hard part is to now drift in the wake of your alterations and observe precisely how your strain grows and develops. You can introduce GFP into a mouse and have an adorable glow-in-the-dark pet mouse, but this says little about how vulnerable it becomes to nocturnal predators. Nor does it say anything about the resulting biochemistry inside of the rodent - the presence of free radicals, its propensity to any number of rodent-borne diseases, what bacteria it may harbor, its evolutionarily-determined benchmark for homeostasis, and so on, let alone a care for its own health or comfort (that isn't an issue).

Now what does any of this matter to us if we're only interested in eating the damn thing. Well as I've already cautioned, when you alter a creature's biochemistry you put it at risk to new disease, new afflictions, new "corruptions" that if not properly accounted for by the existing health standards can slip through to the consumer unchecked. These standards are not merely invented by an epiphany of scientists or lawmakers, but are adapted as necessitated by changing health risks - to be blunt, in hindsight of a calamitous event (the bovinial spongiform scares in the UK are but one example I can point to).

Unfortunately, standards for food safety can only measure things on the opposite end from where they started: in a laboratory. The growing plant or animal throughout its life stages is the black box in this system and we're in an unnecessary hurry to get this food on our plates without taking a moment to appreciate just what's happening inside that box. Although tests can apply a rubric of diverse criteria to identify a number of things that interest us, its the things you're not testing for that we need to worry about. The fact of the matter is you're dealing with a fundamentally distinct organism than that from which you stenciled.

You must account for the long-term effects of altered genetic code. You must account for the new pests and bacteria for which you've created a host. You must account for any toxins that weren't present previously, or were only at tolerable levels. We've altered the dosage and it will take years, even decades, to identify the most significant effects - these tests could take place in a lab, but it's not in the market's interest to delay profit.

Let's talk about meat. Some people like it rare, they like it juicy, they like it tender - no one puts themselves at greater risk of food-borne illness than this person, and occasionally they pay the price for it because the beef was of poor grade, or the sushi bar served fish past its date, or the kitchen countertop wasn't respected from contact with raw food, or any number of everyday blunders. Obviously you can kill most of the bad things in your food just by cooking them but some people are nonetheless afflicted, whether by a slip-up at the farm, untidiness in the kitchen, or their own desire to consume raw food.

But not all mammals and certainly not all humans react identically to raw meat. Stomach acids, bacteria that have chosen you for a host, and even immune system all play a roll in determining just how safe food is to you individually. And this says very little about people with allergies but I think you'll see that this isn't a trivial matter worth writing off in legislation. In the U.S. I am proud to say that if you have an allergy (perhaps fatal) to certain nuts, you can expect to see in boldfaced font a warning on food labels that will alert you even if the food may have only come in contact with machinery that processed nuts. It's important to recognize that mistakes happen in the kitchen and it's a deathly serious matter.

The risk is there and slip-ups happen all the time. Fortunately our bodies have already adapted in some capacity and some of us (but not all of us) are able to consume many foods in their rawest form. Appreciate this, but only with the lemma that it comes from the long-term adaptation to a fixed set of plants and animals that practice has shown to be acceptable to our health. When culture tells you to eat this food but not that one, it is based on a wisdom of thousands of years of culinary experience - and I want you to imagine what frightful reaction struck the first discover of nightshade and what horrible discomfort it would have imparted on those people. It may look like food, it might even taste good, but fuck it all, this one was evolved to kill me.

Now we've got a grad student in the lab with a hot idea on how we can make a plumper, juicier, nutritious whatever. I trust their methodology and I trust their results - it will be plumper, juicier, sexier, and whatever people happen to want. But the lab work ends when the thesis is done or when the company goes to market. In the U.S. (needless to say a major player in the biotech industry) the FDA has already made up its mind on GM foods. To put it simply, they've been judged "materially indistinguishable" from natural species and therefore are not subject to any new investigations or restrictions.

I will have to do some further investigation to find out just how the FDA came to this decision, but by the standard I've given you a GM food cannot be indistinguishable from its unmodified counterpart unless it has identical biochemistry - and it's the biochemistry that interests me. To say that they're "materially indistinguishable" is contradictory to the purpose of making a modification in the first place. If you find yourself eating a plumper, juicier, more nutritious whatever then the answer is clearly sitting right in front of you on your plate.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 15:50:19
May 09 2010 15:38 GMT
#15
On May 09 2010 22:52 x2fst wrote:
Make a point in favor of settlers land rights in countries with displaced indigenous populations like the USA or Australia.


I'm still correcting typos in the GM piece, but you're next...

And now I'm defending rebuttals, so it'll have to wait.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
May 09 2010 15:47 GMT
#16
You know whats on my mind? how ridiculously bad you are at 'Yo mama' jokes HEELLLOOOO
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
May 09 2010 15:47 GMT
#17
On May 10 2010 00:26 mmp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 22:06 KwarK wrote:
Make a case against GM crops/livestock created through deliberate selective breeding for traits.


+ Show Spoiler +
You specify that the modification in question is simply the selective breeding of existing species. I think it's ambiguous whether or not you intended to include genetic engineering as an objectionable modification - it is distinct from the vanilla old-fashioned techniques of breeding, but I will assume you meant GM to include direct manipulation of genetic material and traditional (Mendel-style selection) breeding.

In biological engineering, the state of the art gives us the ability to very handily say exactly how much of which proteins we would like to be expressed in a resultant strain. The state of the art also allows us to enumerate and verify that we've gotten exactly what we hoped for in the genetic code. This is the (arguably, but for the sake of this discussion) easy part, and this growing field tackles work of this scale on a daily basis.

The hard part is to now drift in the wake of your alterations and observe precisely how your strain grows and develops. You can introduce GFP into a mouse and have an adorable glow-in-the-dark pet mouse, but this says little about how vulnerable it becomes to nocturnal predators. Nor does it say anything about the resulting biochemistry inside of the rodent - the presence of free radicals, its propensity to any number of rodent-borne diseases, what bacteria it may harbor, its evolutionarily-determined benchmark for homeostasis, and so on, let alone a care for its own health or comfort (that isn't an issue).

Now what does any of this matter to us if we're only interested in eating the damn thing. Well as I've already cautioned, when you alter a creature's biochemistry you put it at risk to new disease, new afflictions, new "corruptions" that if not properly accounted for by the existing health standards can slip through to the consumer unchecked. These standards are not merely invented by an epiphany of scientists or lawmakers, but are adapted as necessitated by changing health risks - to be blunt, in hindsight of a calamitous event (the bovinial spongiform scares in the UK are but one example I can point to).

Unfortunately, standards for food safety can only measure things on the opposite end from where they started: in a laboratory. The growing plant or animal throughout its life stages is the black box in this system and we're in an unnecessary hurry to get this food on our plates without taking a moment to appreciate just what's happening inside that box. Although tests can apply a rubric of diverse criteria to identify a number of things that interest us, its the things you're not testing for that we need to worry about. The fact of the matter is you're dealing with a fundamentally distinct organism than that from which you stenciled.

You must account for the long-term effects of altered genetic code. You must account for the new pests and bacteria for which you've created a host. You must account for any toxins that weren't present previously, or were only at tolerable levels. We've altered the dosage and it will take years, even decades, to identify the most significant effects - these tests could take place in a lab, but it's not in the market's interest to delay profit.

Let's talk about meat. Some people like it rare, they like it juicy, they like it tender - no one puts themselves at greater risk of food-borne illness than this person, and occasionally they pay the price for it because the beef was of poor grade, or the sushi bar served fish past its date, or the kitchen countertop wasn't respected from contact with raw food, or any number of everyday blunders. Obviously you can kill most of the bad things in your food just by cooking them but some people are nonetheless afflicted, whether by a slip-up at the farm, untidiness in the kitchen, or their own desire to consume raw food.

But not all mammals and certainly not all humans react identically to raw meat. Stomach acids, bacteria that have chosen you for a host, and even immune system all play a roll in determining just how safe food is to you individually. And this says very little about people with allergies but I think you'll see that this isn't a trivial matter worth writing off in legislation. In the U.S. I am proud to say that if you have an allergy (perhaps fatal) to certain nuts, you can expect to see in boldfaced font a warning on food labels that will alert you even if the food may have only come in contact with machinery that processed nuts. It's important to recognize that mistakes happen in the kitchen and it's a deathly serious matter.

The risk is there and slip-ups happen all the time. Fortunately our bodies have already adapted in some capacity and some of us (but not all of us) are able to consume many foods in their rawest form. Appreciate this, but only with the lemma that it comes from the long-term adaptation to a fixed set of plants and animals that practice has shown to be acceptable to our health. When culture tells you to eat this food but not that one, it is based on a wisdom of thousands of years of culinary experience - and I want you to imagine what frightful reaction struck the first discover of nightshade and what horrible discomfort it would have imparted on those people. It may look like food, it might even taste good, but fuck it all, this one was evolved to kill me.

Now we've got a grad student in the lab with a hot idea on how we can make a plumper, juicier, nutritious whatever. I trust their methodology and I trust their results - it will be plumper, juicier, sexier, and whatever people happen to want. But the lab work ends when the thesis is done or when the company goes to market. In the United States, needless to say a major player in the biotech industry, the FDA has already made up its mind on GM foods. To put it simply, they've been judged "materially indistinguishable" from natural species and therefore are not subject to any new investigations or restrictions.

I will have to do some further investigation to find out just how the FDA came to this decision, but by the standard I've given you a GM food cannot be indistinguishable from its unmodified counterpart unless it has identical biochemistry - and it's the biochemistry that interests me. To say that they're "materially indistinguishable" is contradictory to the purpose of making a modification in the first place. If I'm eating a plumper, juicier, more nutritious whatever then the answer is clearly sitting right in front of you on your plate.


I suggest you read up on this man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

[image loading]

[image loading]

You make the argument that they are genetically different, therefore the food is incomparable and could be dangerous and cause allergies/irritate gut bacteria. However, most of the food you eat is the same, an alphonso mango farmed in india is different from one farmed in egypt or the USA, genetically different. It's true that there are some "dangers" associated with GMO allergies, but the benefits far outweigh the few negatives, it's cheaper food, and a much larger food supply, and more durable food, this has helped developing countries a lot, and this man Norman Bourlag won the Nobel Prize for World peace for increasing the food supply in developing nations using his genetically modified wheat. Natural is a pretty stupid word, especially considering the things we farm are not natural, and are selectively breeded to get a certain product quality.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
May 09 2010 15:48 GMT
#18
On May 10 2010 00:47 TheAntZ wrote:
You know whats on my mind? how ridiculously bad you are at 'Yo mama' jokes HEELLLOOOO


lol you just kept ripping off wherever I took that one, and with little creativity to add. :p
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
May 09 2010 15:56 GMT
#19
On May 10 2010 00:48 mmp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2010 00:47 TheAntZ wrote:
You know whats on my mind? how ridiculously bad you are at 'Yo mama' jokes HEELLLOOOO


lol you just kept ripping off wherever I took that one, and with little creativity to add. :p

yeah, i just changed around the words
either that or you have no reading comprehension
also, theres very little creativity to be had with starcraft based yo mama jokes :/
this shows in your jokes too!
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 15:57:19
May 09 2010 15:56 GMT
#20
Argue that SC:BW is far, far better than SCII(this you should already have thought up yourself, if not then your bad at finding stuff to do)

edit: O and TheAntz ideas are great! ^^
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
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