• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:42
CEST 16:42
KST 23:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed14Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll6Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Who will win EWC 2025? The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Help: rep cant save
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 815 users

Thoughts on the Beta

Blogs > Dromar
Post a Reply
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-05 01:05:49
May 05 2010 00:28 GMT
#1
So, recently a friend of mine got an extra key and gave it to me (thanks btw). So far I've played about 15 ranked matches, including the placement matches, all as Zerg.

Anyway, there are several threads discussing the state of the game right now, and I thought I'd comment on my (admittedly limited) personal experience so far, as well as make some of my own observations.

[D]Zerg Threat in Early Game
When I got into the beta, I really had no idea what was standard. I knew roaches and marauders were popular, and voidray/banshee/reaper/hellion rushes were common. So before I played any ranked games, I familiarized myself with the UI, hotkeys, unit costs/HP/damage/etc. in some 1v1 comp stomps, and came up with a basic build:
-13pool
-15gas
-don't actually know the numbers, but I had it timed so that my inject larva and roach den would finish just as I had enough min/gas/supply to build 6 roaches
-afterward, second gas/lair/macro/expo.
I would make a few lings for scouting, and I always send my first 2 lings to the watchtowers. I'm surprised this isn't done more often. You see everything coming your way.

I used this build for ZvT and ZvZ, and for ZvP I just kind of got speedlings and went from there, which usually resulted in mass hydra/muta on 2 base.

Of course, now I've read a bit on the SC2 strategy forum, I'm pretty sure that build qualifies as a "roach rush," which brings me to my first thought:

The way the game is played now is nothing like how it will be played in even one year. Currently, many players are just figuring out some "XXX unit rush" build, and going with it. They'll see what it works against, what it doesn't work against, and what timings are involved, and they'll develop better builds as a result. This is already happening. Against gold players, every game I've played has been me fending off some type of rush (voidray, banshee, proxy 2gate...). Against platinum players, it's been 50/50 between some well-executed rush and a macro build.

The biggest possible exception to the italicized statement IMO is Zerg. They really don't have many viable opening options. One reason is limited unit compositions before lair tech. One reason is great walling/defensive abilities of the other races. One big reason IMO is that, while Terran and Protoss have units that they can "rush" and be effective with (one or two unanswered banshees/voidrays/whatevers can be gg), Zerg doesn't have anything like this. Three mutas are an annoyance at best, and T and P will already have the infrastructure to deal with them, or at least minimize the damage. The difference is, to harass as Zerg, you need lots of units, which requires lots of economic strength, especially gas. Players are gas-starved in SC2 more than in BW. While a couple hundred gas can put together a rush for T or P, Zerg needs lots more, which can't be done on one base, nor can it be done in a timely fashion.

However, I'm not saying that's a problem. Zerg doesn't really have a whole lot of rushes in its arsenal in BW either. But part of it is the way the opponent plays. And I think that'll change over time. Namely, once Zerg players are able to consistently stop rush builds from Protoss and Terran, while pursuing a strong economic opening, Protoss and Terran will have no choice but to FE themselves to keep up economically.

So, continuing my story, I went 4-1 in placement matches and got placed in gold. The game I lost was to a voidray rush, that I could have won, but I didn't know that any two buildings next to each-other made a ling-tight wall. That's really too bad. Had I known that, I would have just run past his cannons and destroyed his main, but I got greedy and thought I could win it right there. Also, cannons have 300 life now? Wow. It's needed because roaches do so much damage, but it makes lings pretty worthless against them.

Anyway, after those matches, I watched Artotis' stream. And it was awesome. He played some great games on the Asia server, as Zerg, and answered questions afterward. Very informative. The biggest thing I learned is that FE is still an option for Zerg.

So, FE is viable it seems (I mean, I assume Artosis knows what he's doing, and that's what he does). And as I've said, T and P will need to FE themselves to keep up eventually. But the question is, will they be able to keep up even then? IMO, Queen is much, much stronger macro tool than MULE or Chrono. I think T and P will have to FE while still pressuring the Zerg with aggressive tech timings, harass, or both, otherwise Zerg will just out-power them. Droning up is so easy in SC2, that in fact, watching replays of myself, I usually end games with 80+ drones. It's so easy I've been making too many! But I was a macro-whore in BW too. With the Queen as strong as it is, I think Zerg might become dominant too easily if they had more options available early.

MBS/Automine
MBS is fine I think. Personally, I still hotkey each hatch separately, since I'm so used to using them like location keys from BW. Automine, I guess it's a necessary evil to keep up with the times, and other than being bored for the first minute of the game, I still find myself with lots to do, due to the new macro mechanics.

Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
I'm not really sure what to say here. Micro is much easier due to smartcasting, though I don't have much experience with that first-hand. If you don't include army positioning as part of micro, then it's a strong argument, as there's really not a whole lot to do other than put your units in the right spot/formation and attack. After that, you micro the units you have to keep them alive as long as possible, by pulling back lings that have taken 2 zealot hits, forming a concave in ranged vs melee battles, etc. But I think the fact that melee units aren't used as much makes most games just a range vs range battle, and there's not a whole lot to do there it seems.
Unit AI is pretty smart nowadays. Avoiding overkill (I haven't witnessed this myself, but I've heard about it), and quick surrounds both contribute to quicker battles, and more difficulty retreating from bad situations, leading to more one-sided battles if you get caught with the wrong unit combination.

edit: regarding micro, immediately after writing this I saw this thread, and though some of the things mentioned are actually pretty basic, there's a couple interesting things in there. So I guess there are some "tricks" found already. Good news.

Zerg Unit Diversity
Before I got into the beta, watching the occasional stream, it looked like Zerg was all about mass roach, mass hydra, or a combination of the two. So far, for me at least, it kind of is, but I haven't found it to be a problem so far at least. It could get boring quite easily. Overall, I think Zerg could be improved on, and before I heard of the release date I was expecting a major overhaul. That said it's not bad. What would I change? Offhand, I'd consider
1. making the Queen a less powerful macro tool,
2. giving them more viable pre-lair options that get around a blocked ramp and/or harassment options that cost <300 gas to initiate,
3. giving them a cost-effective early/mid-game anti-air option besides hydra
4. making hive tech more attractive
5. giving them another spell-caster besides infestor
6. changing at least one of the infestor's spells
I'll stop there.

Ranking System
I'd prefer a much more unified ranking system. One that allows players to make inter-division and inter-league comparisons. Why are there hundreds of "Platinum League #1's?" Who's actually #1? How does a 2000 gold player measure up against a 1250 platinum player?

Is it fun? Yes (at least for now). The matchmaking is great too, so that players can have fun against similarly skilled opponents.
Is the skill ceiling high enough? Yes, I think so.
Great spectator sport? ... It's fun to watch replays, that's for sure, since they're like FPVoDs and so comprehensive. I'm confident there will be PLAGUU!! and Rebo-Rebo-Rebo moments, as players refine builds to the point where one important unit sniped or well-cast spell is a big deal. I guess, yeah, it'll be a good spectator sport, as long as players and mapmakers are willing to innovate, and Blizzard is willing to make balance changes every once in a while.

Really, only time will tell, but those are my thoughts as of now. I'll probably read this a year from now and laugh at how wrong I was.

Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill Weekly #218
CranKy Ducklings160
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 228
SpeCial 160
mcanning 87
mouzHeroMarine 74
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 42046
Sea 3319
Larva 1979
EffOrt 1814
firebathero 1325
Stork 749
Mini 446
Light 363
Snow 362
Zeus 216
[ Show more ]
PianO 128
ToSsGirL 92
Sharp 80
Hyun 75
TY 72
sSak 68
Backho 60
sas.Sziky 57
Rush 33
Sacsri 27
GoRush 25
scan(afreeca) 22
Terrorterran 15
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
Noble 11
IntoTheRainbow 11
SilentControl 9
Shine 7
Hm[arnc] 6
Dota 2
Gorgc11184
singsing3127
qojqva965
syndereN260
Counter-Strike
sgares490
byalli303
markeloff89
edward23
Other Games
hiko1371
B2W.Neo1308
Lowko460
DeMusliM407
Fuzer 266
KnowMe125
QueenE66
Mew2King52
Trikslyr33
Pyrionflax26
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2412
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 12
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota259
League of Legends
• Nemesis5051
• Jankos1374
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
1h 18m
Fjant vs Babymarine
Mixu vs HiGhDrA
Gerald vs ArT
goblin vs MaNa
Jumy vs YoungYakov
Replay Cast
9h 18m
OSC
9h 18m
Epic.LAN
21h 18m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 19h
Epic.LAN
1d 21h
CSO Contender
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
4 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

JPL Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.