• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:53
CEST 05:53
KST 12:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244
Community News
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?102Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!46Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Winner Will Earn a Spot at HSC 30! Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over September World Ranking: herO leads, Serral climbs
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly SC2 INu's Battles#20 [BO.9]
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This
Brood War
General
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! ASL22 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: Calm's Big Brain Play Vs Mini
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group B [ASL22] Ro16 Group A [ASL22] Ro24 Group F [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
F* the Children and Get Off …
TrAiDoS
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7139 users

Rehash

Blogs > mcneebs
Post a Reply
mcneebs
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada391 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 03:39:38
April 29 2010 03:32 GMT
#1
Over the last few weeks, I was privileged enough to meet a guy on IRC who let me use his spare account for a brief time to mess around with Starcraft 2. I was more than appreciative of the gesture of kindness, and owe him a huge thanks. This act of kindness towards a complete stranger was definitely something that I had not seen online in quite some time.

Sadly (and understandably), he has since given the account to a friend, rendering me betaless once more. I live in China where preordering is not an option. I just wanted to give a quick shout out to smog and thank him for letting me test out what I believe to be an amazing game.

I’m quite a lurker on TL. I spend a few hours a day reading the SC2 forums, the strategy forums, the NSFW picture thread, and always keeping a look out for beta contests. I’ve stated before that the reason I lurk so much isn’t because I’m shy, but I really don’t feel that my opinion is worth too much. Anything I can say, someone with twentyfold more experience can say better (and almost always articulate what they mean better than I can). I see 10 year veterans and 10 post newbies argue for and against every aspect of this game. Nerf this. Buff that. Zerg is OP. Zerg is UP. And while I think that most people feel justified in their opinions, I frankly think that teamliquid could pay for its server costs with everyone seeming to throw in their own two cents.

Again, I’ve been happy to just keep on keeping on, mostly ignoring those with the tier 1 icons, or those who seem oblivious to balance and just feel that their race is underpowered. There has been one thing however that I feel has been grossly overlooked by the community when addressing the balance of the game. The map editior.

[image loading]

pictured: Pandora’s box

“Mcneebs!” you may say. “If you don’t have the ability to see that broodlords are imba, how on earth can you claim that you know about map design?”

In 2004 I was playing quite a bit of competitive counter-strike. CS:S was still in beta development, and left4dead was merely a twinkie in Gabe Newell’s eye. I was approached by a friend of mine to work on a mod for the new engine, and I soon took the role as the lead 2D designer for a game called (creatively) goldeneye source. We took everyone’s favorite console FPS, and tried to remake it for the source engine. It was an ambitious project that got a lot of attention, and we constantly had to try to keep under the radar from MGM and EA (who had the 007 rights at the time). We were a ragtag team of designers, coders, sound guys and animators. Everyone was having a blast, and within a short time we managed to turn this

[image loading]


into this
[image loading]

I was thrilled with the new technology from my end. Normal mapping, specular/parallax maps, and (at the time) high resolution textures covered every wall, weapon, and model. It was great! But there was a fundamental problem that no one seemed to realize until it was too late. No one wanted to explore what the engine could do outside of a visual standpoint. We got so caught up in making sure that everything was replicated perfectly, that we never really took advantage of the fact that we could have greatly improved the game.

We never really cared if the maps were balanced, or if the weapons were over/under powered. In our minds, we already had the template. The greatest FPS console game ever made. We were looking at the entirety of the game, and trying to re achieve perfection without really thinking about what we had done. The game was great at the time. Having 4 people shooting rockets in a 200m square room that has basically nothing in it was acceptable at the time. But it wasn’t acceptable in 2004 onward. We had players that had loved goldeneye when they were kids, but had since spent years playing quake 3 or CS or whatever the FPS de la jour was at the time.

Sadly, in 2006 our lead project developer Nick Bishop committed suicide after losing a long struggle with depression. The development team fell apart and the game never came together. I still see the odd progress video pop up on dig, but the game is on life support at best, already looking incredibly dated and still in an “unreleased” state.

I’m sure where you can see where I’m going with this long winded comparison. We’ve been given a new game, with a new engine. New components, units, graphics, spells and abilities. The sad thing is, we’ve been given a handful of maps, and really haven’t been given the opportunity to test any unorthodox map making. Go on any map making discussion thread and you’ll see people trying to recreate every iccup map from destination to paranoid android. This is a natural thing. The old maps were great, and the new versions of those updated maps (a la lost temple) will be just as good.

[image loading]
pictured: 5 years of innnovative map making

The frightening thing to me is that we’re being asked to test the game on a series of “standard” maps with a few gimmicky components to each one. What we haven’t seen yet is unorthodox manipulation of the maps the way we did in SC1. When I saw the “blinking past destructible rocks” trick in the TL v EG clanwar, I thought to myself wow, I’d love to see a map with a “backdoor route” that consisted of like 10 sets of destructible rocks, but was able to be blink microed. I wonder how that would do. Apparently everyone else thought “FIX IT NOW!”

I’m not saying that blizzard should have released maps that are anything but standard. After all, the majority of the balance fixes we’ve seen would have been a necessity despite the innovation of the map design. But I think we’re all being a little quick to cry nerf. If glitching vultures was discovered in the SC beta, it would have been shouted down by the masses, and blizzard probably would have complied and had it fixed. Instead what we got was an exciting albeit unintentional tactic that had some maps designed specifically designed for it, further pushing the limits of both game balance and map innovation.

The same can be said for all kinds of things from mining out a backdoor, to the stacked temples that ended up (to my knowledge) being the template for the destructible rocks that always seem to block the sweet sweet gold minerals that we love so much.

In summary, all I can do is hope that blizzard lets us really play on these custom maps, and that the masses try their best to create more dynamic maps with all kinds of crazy things for us to explore. Reaper proof mains, blinkable (or non blinkable) islands, low HP destructible objects blocking paths, or even things like this dynamic lava system that floods parts of the low ground. Give all the tools to the masses, and I’m sure we can come out with a more balanced, dynamic game and not just rehash map concepts from the original that may or may not work.

As for me, I’m just going to continue lurking, making the occasional post, and keep an eye open for a beta key so that I can better understand the game.


You do it to yourself. Just you. You and no one else.
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
April 29 2010 04:36 GMT
#2
Holy crap goldeneye looks amazing.
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
BrodiaQ
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States892 Posts
April 29 2010 04:55 GMT
#3
On April 29 2010 13:36 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Holy crap goldeneye looks amazing.


Did you read all the blog and come up with that? Brilliant!

Very true. I've only seen people trying to make sc2's maps play out like Brood War's. While I love the BW maps it'd be pretty cool to see some unorthodox maps that could totally change the style of play in SC2.
"So come right up and let me squash your creativity with my iron fist of conservative play."--Nony
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 7m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft484
RuFF_SC2 198
ProTech146
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 2580
GuemChi 1800
Noble 79
Bale 27
IntoTheRainbow 6
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm205
League of Legends
JimRising 784
Counter-Strike
taco 302
minikerr40
Other Games
summit1g9234
XaKoH 508
Sick118
Maynarde105
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH338
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Light_VIP 28
• RayReign 19
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo841
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
6h 7m
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
GSL
7h 7m
PiGosaur Cup
20h 7m
Kung Fu Cup
1d 7h
Replay Cast
1d 20h
The PondCast
2 days
KCM Race Survival
2 days
Escore
3 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
5 days
Spirit vs Mixu
Clem vs TBD
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.