• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:17
CET 21:17
KST 05:17
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9
Community News
2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!9BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION1Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams9Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest3Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou23
StarCraft 2
General
RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" The New Patch Killed Mech! Could we add "Avoid Matchup" Feature for rankgame Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $3,500 WardiTV Korean Royale S4
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment
Brood War
General
[ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET [ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival BW General Discussion BSL Season 21
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals The Casual Games of the Week Thread BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION ASL final tickets help
Strategy
How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
LMAO (controversial!!)
Peanutsc
The Benefits Of Limited Comm…
TrAiDoS
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1758 users

Rehash

Blogs > mcneebs
Post a Reply
mcneebs
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada391 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 03:39:38
April 29 2010 03:32 GMT
#1
Over the last few weeks, I was privileged enough to meet a guy on IRC who let me use his spare account for a brief time to mess around with Starcraft 2. I was more than appreciative of the gesture of kindness, and owe him a huge thanks. This act of kindness towards a complete stranger was definitely something that I had not seen online in quite some time.

Sadly (and understandably), he has since given the account to a friend, rendering me betaless once more. I live in China where preordering is not an option. I just wanted to give a quick shout out to smog and thank him for letting me test out what I believe to be an amazing game.

I’m quite a lurker on TL. I spend a few hours a day reading the SC2 forums, the strategy forums, the NSFW picture thread, and always keeping a look out for beta contests. I’ve stated before that the reason I lurk so much isn’t because I’m shy, but I really don’t feel that my opinion is worth too much. Anything I can say, someone with twentyfold more experience can say better (and almost always articulate what they mean better than I can). I see 10 year veterans and 10 post newbies argue for and against every aspect of this game. Nerf this. Buff that. Zerg is OP. Zerg is UP. And while I think that most people feel justified in their opinions, I frankly think that teamliquid could pay for its server costs with everyone seeming to throw in their own two cents.

Again, I’ve been happy to just keep on keeping on, mostly ignoring those with the tier 1 icons, or those who seem oblivious to balance and just feel that their race is underpowered. There has been one thing however that I feel has been grossly overlooked by the community when addressing the balance of the game. The map editior.

[image loading]

pictured: Pandora’s box

“Mcneebs!” you may say. “If you don’t have the ability to see that broodlords are imba, how on earth can you claim that you know about map design?”

In 2004 I was playing quite a bit of competitive counter-strike. CS:S was still in beta development, and left4dead was merely a twinkie in Gabe Newell’s eye. I was approached by a friend of mine to work on a mod for the new engine, and I soon took the role as the lead 2D designer for a game called (creatively) goldeneye source. We took everyone’s favorite console FPS, and tried to remake it for the source engine. It was an ambitious project that got a lot of attention, and we constantly had to try to keep under the radar from MGM and EA (who had the 007 rights at the time). We were a ragtag team of designers, coders, sound guys and animators. Everyone was having a blast, and within a short time we managed to turn this

[image loading]


into this
[image loading]

I was thrilled with the new technology from my end. Normal mapping, specular/parallax maps, and (at the time) high resolution textures covered every wall, weapon, and model. It was great! But there was a fundamental problem that no one seemed to realize until it was too late. No one wanted to explore what the engine could do outside of a visual standpoint. We got so caught up in making sure that everything was replicated perfectly, that we never really took advantage of the fact that we could have greatly improved the game.

We never really cared if the maps were balanced, or if the weapons were over/under powered. In our minds, we already had the template. The greatest FPS console game ever made. We were looking at the entirety of the game, and trying to re achieve perfection without really thinking about what we had done. The game was great at the time. Having 4 people shooting rockets in a 200m square room that has basically nothing in it was acceptable at the time. But it wasn’t acceptable in 2004 onward. We had players that had loved goldeneye when they were kids, but had since spent years playing quake 3 or CS or whatever the FPS de la jour was at the time.

Sadly, in 2006 our lead project developer Nick Bishop committed suicide after losing a long struggle with depression. The development team fell apart and the game never came together. I still see the odd progress video pop up on dig, but the game is on life support at best, already looking incredibly dated and still in an “unreleased” state.

I’m sure where you can see where I’m going with this long winded comparison. We’ve been given a new game, with a new engine. New components, units, graphics, spells and abilities. The sad thing is, we’ve been given a handful of maps, and really haven’t been given the opportunity to test any unorthodox map making. Go on any map making discussion thread and you’ll see people trying to recreate every iccup map from destination to paranoid android. This is a natural thing. The old maps were great, and the new versions of those updated maps (a la lost temple) will be just as good.

[image loading]
pictured: 5 years of innnovative map making

The frightening thing to me is that we’re being asked to test the game on a series of “standard” maps with a few gimmicky components to each one. What we haven’t seen yet is unorthodox manipulation of the maps the way we did in SC1. When I saw the “blinking past destructible rocks” trick in the TL v EG clanwar, I thought to myself wow, I’d love to see a map with a “backdoor route” that consisted of like 10 sets of destructible rocks, but was able to be blink microed. I wonder how that would do. Apparently everyone else thought “FIX IT NOW!”

I’m not saying that blizzard should have released maps that are anything but standard. After all, the majority of the balance fixes we’ve seen would have been a necessity despite the innovation of the map design. But I think we’re all being a little quick to cry nerf. If glitching vultures was discovered in the SC beta, it would have been shouted down by the masses, and blizzard probably would have complied and had it fixed. Instead what we got was an exciting albeit unintentional tactic that had some maps designed specifically designed for it, further pushing the limits of both game balance and map innovation.

The same can be said for all kinds of things from mining out a backdoor, to the stacked temples that ended up (to my knowledge) being the template for the destructible rocks that always seem to block the sweet sweet gold minerals that we love so much.

In summary, all I can do is hope that blizzard lets us really play on these custom maps, and that the masses try their best to create more dynamic maps with all kinds of crazy things for us to explore. Reaper proof mains, blinkable (or non blinkable) islands, low HP destructible objects blocking paths, or even things like this dynamic lava system that floods parts of the low ground. Give all the tools to the masses, and I’m sure we can come out with a more balanced, dynamic game and not just rehash map concepts from the original that may or may not work.

As for me, I’m just going to continue lurking, making the occasional post, and keep an eye open for a beta key so that I can better understand the game.


You do it to yourself. Just you. You and no one else.
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
April 29 2010 04:36 GMT
#2
Holy crap goldeneye looks amazing.
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
BrodiaQ
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States892 Posts
April 29 2010 04:55 GMT
#3
On April 29 2010 13:36 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Holy crap goldeneye looks amazing.


Did you read all the blog and come up with that? Brilliant!

Very true. I've only seen people trying to make sc2's maps play out like Brood War's. While I love the BW maps it'd be pretty cool to see some unorthodox maps that could totally change the style of play in SC2.
"So come right up and let me squash your creativity with my iron fist of conservative play."--Nony
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 43m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 125
Railgan 57
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 15902
Bonyth 54
sas.Sziky 46
HiyA 41
Dota 2
qojqva3836
monkeys_forever137
capcasts131
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu349
Other Games
Grubby2062
fl0m1126
FrodaN991
Beastyqt677
ceh9399
Skadoodle235
Hui .130
ArmadaUGS118
Trikslyr36
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 30
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 30
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2974
League of Legends
• Nemesis2554
Other Games
• imaqtpie961
• Scarra412
• Shiphtur151
Upcoming Events
BSL 21
4h 43m
Replay Cast
13h 43m
BASILISK vs Shopify Rebellion
Team Liquid vs Team Falcon
OSC
15h 43m
CrankTV Team League
16h 43m
Shopify Rebellion vs Team Liquid
BASILISK vs Team Falcon
Replay Cast
1d 2h
The PondCast
1d 12h
CrankTV Team League
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
MaNa vs Gerald
Rogue vs GuMiho
ByuN vs Spirit
herO vs Solar
CrankTV Team League
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
3 days
Dewalt vs Shine
UltrA vs ZeLoT
BSL 21
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
4 days
Cross vs Motive
Sziky vs HiyA
BSL 21
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20
WardiTV TLMC #15
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
BSL 21 Team A
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.