• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:01
CEST 07:01
KST 14:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors7[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists17[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers19Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers INu's Battles#14 <BO.9 2Matches> GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors FlaSh: This Will Be My Final ASL【ASL S21 Ro.16】 Leta's ASL S21 Ro.16 review BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group D Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Diablo IV Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2216 users

Rehash

Blogs > mcneebs
Post a Reply
mcneebs
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada391 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-29 03:39:38
April 29 2010 03:32 GMT
#1
Over the last few weeks, I was privileged enough to meet a guy on IRC who let me use his spare account for a brief time to mess around with Starcraft 2. I was more than appreciative of the gesture of kindness, and owe him a huge thanks. This act of kindness towards a complete stranger was definitely something that I had not seen online in quite some time.

Sadly (and understandably), he has since given the account to a friend, rendering me betaless once more. I live in China where preordering is not an option. I just wanted to give a quick shout out to smog and thank him for letting me test out what I believe to be an amazing game.

I’m quite a lurker on TL. I spend a few hours a day reading the SC2 forums, the strategy forums, the NSFW picture thread, and always keeping a look out for beta contests. I’ve stated before that the reason I lurk so much isn’t because I’m shy, but I really don’t feel that my opinion is worth too much. Anything I can say, someone with twentyfold more experience can say better (and almost always articulate what they mean better than I can). I see 10 year veterans and 10 post newbies argue for and against every aspect of this game. Nerf this. Buff that. Zerg is OP. Zerg is UP. And while I think that most people feel justified in their opinions, I frankly think that teamliquid could pay for its server costs with everyone seeming to throw in their own two cents.

Again, I’ve been happy to just keep on keeping on, mostly ignoring those with the tier 1 icons, or those who seem oblivious to balance and just feel that their race is underpowered. There has been one thing however that I feel has been grossly overlooked by the community when addressing the balance of the game. The map editior.

[image loading]

pictured: Pandora’s box

“Mcneebs!” you may say. “If you don’t have the ability to see that broodlords are imba, how on earth can you claim that you know about map design?”

In 2004 I was playing quite a bit of competitive counter-strike. CS:S was still in beta development, and left4dead was merely a twinkie in Gabe Newell’s eye. I was approached by a friend of mine to work on a mod for the new engine, and I soon took the role as the lead 2D designer for a game called (creatively) goldeneye source. We took everyone’s favorite console FPS, and tried to remake it for the source engine. It was an ambitious project that got a lot of attention, and we constantly had to try to keep under the radar from MGM and EA (who had the 007 rights at the time). We were a ragtag team of designers, coders, sound guys and animators. Everyone was having a blast, and within a short time we managed to turn this

[image loading]


into this
[image loading]

I was thrilled with the new technology from my end. Normal mapping, specular/parallax maps, and (at the time) high resolution textures covered every wall, weapon, and model. It was great! But there was a fundamental problem that no one seemed to realize until it was too late. No one wanted to explore what the engine could do outside of a visual standpoint. We got so caught up in making sure that everything was replicated perfectly, that we never really took advantage of the fact that we could have greatly improved the game.

We never really cared if the maps were balanced, or if the weapons were over/under powered. In our minds, we already had the template. The greatest FPS console game ever made. We were looking at the entirety of the game, and trying to re achieve perfection without really thinking about what we had done. The game was great at the time. Having 4 people shooting rockets in a 200m square room that has basically nothing in it was acceptable at the time. But it wasn’t acceptable in 2004 onward. We had players that had loved goldeneye when they were kids, but had since spent years playing quake 3 or CS or whatever the FPS de la jour was at the time.

Sadly, in 2006 our lead project developer Nick Bishop committed suicide after losing a long struggle with depression. The development team fell apart and the game never came together. I still see the odd progress video pop up on dig, but the game is on life support at best, already looking incredibly dated and still in an “unreleased” state.

I’m sure where you can see where I’m going with this long winded comparison. We’ve been given a new game, with a new engine. New components, units, graphics, spells and abilities. The sad thing is, we’ve been given a handful of maps, and really haven’t been given the opportunity to test any unorthodox map making. Go on any map making discussion thread and you’ll see people trying to recreate every iccup map from destination to paranoid android. This is a natural thing. The old maps were great, and the new versions of those updated maps (a la lost temple) will be just as good.

[image loading]
pictured: 5 years of innnovative map making

The frightening thing to me is that we’re being asked to test the game on a series of “standard” maps with a few gimmicky components to each one. What we haven’t seen yet is unorthodox manipulation of the maps the way we did in SC1. When I saw the “blinking past destructible rocks” trick in the TL v EG clanwar, I thought to myself wow, I’d love to see a map with a “backdoor route” that consisted of like 10 sets of destructible rocks, but was able to be blink microed. I wonder how that would do. Apparently everyone else thought “FIX IT NOW!”

I’m not saying that blizzard should have released maps that are anything but standard. After all, the majority of the balance fixes we’ve seen would have been a necessity despite the innovation of the map design. But I think we’re all being a little quick to cry nerf. If glitching vultures was discovered in the SC beta, it would have been shouted down by the masses, and blizzard probably would have complied and had it fixed. Instead what we got was an exciting albeit unintentional tactic that had some maps designed specifically designed for it, further pushing the limits of both game balance and map innovation.

The same can be said for all kinds of things from mining out a backdoor, to the stacked temples that ended up (to my knowledge) being the template for the destructible rocks that always seem to block the sweet sweet gold minerals that we love so much.

In summary, all I can do is hope that blizzard lets us really play on these custom maps, and that the masses try their best to create more dynamic maps with all kinds of crazy things for us to explore. Reaper proof mains, blinkable (or non blinkable) islands, low HP destructible objects blocking paths, or even things like this dynamic lava system that floods parts of the low ground. Give all the tools to the masses, and I’m sure we can come out with a more balanced, dynamic game and not just rehash map concepts from the original that may or may not work.

As for me, I’m just going to continue lurking, making the occasional post, and keep an eye open for a beta key so that I can better understand the game.


You do it to yourself. Just you. You and no one else.
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
April 29 2010 04:36 GMT
#2
Holy crap goldeneye looks amazing.
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
BrodiaQ
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States892 Posts
April 29 2010 04:55 GMT
#3
On April 29 2010 13:36 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Holy crap goldeneye looks amazing.


Did you read all the blog and come up with that? Brilliant!

Very true. I've only seen people trying to make sc2's maps play out like Brood War's. While I love the BW maps it'd be pretty cool to see some unorthodox maps that could totally change the style of play in SC2.
"So come right up and let me squash your creativity with my iron fist of conservative play."--Nony
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
CranKy Ducklings
00:00
TLMC #22: The Finalists
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 452
ProTech121
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 4970
Horang2 725
NaDa 39
yabsab 31
soO 14
Bale 12
Noble 10
Icarus 8
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1149
League of Legends
JimRising 765
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K559
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor135
Other Games
summit1g11431
WinterStarcraft455
-ZergGirl121
ViBE96
Mew2King91
Maynarde86
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick711
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 39
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP2
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 103
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1269
• Lourlo1062
• Stunt1012
Other Games
• Scarra1366
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 59m
Afreeca Starleague
4h 59m
Soma vs hero
Wardi Open
5h 59m
Monday Night Weeklies
10h 59m
Replay Cast
18h 59m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 4h
Leta vs YSC
GSL
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
GSL
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Escore
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
IPSL
6 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W4
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.