There was alot of discussion about Micro in SC2 so I'll keep it very very short.
Why micro makes games interesting: -Super efficient way of using units to deal damage far above their original cost. -Thus, allowing tournarounds. -Forms this can have: Exeptional use of skills, positioning, hit and run, super fast reaction or multitasking. -Micro can allow to win situations of disadvantage, so they can work to decrease imbalance and the importancy of tactical choices. -Viewers can see it directly, other than many tactical choices. It has a heavy effect on game outcome. It allows direct view on a player's skill.
How is it in SC2: -Multitasking left, but rarely to be used as drops are often more risky than rewarding since dropships have few HP. Plus, the games are more focussed instead of widespread. -Most Units can only be used for exeptional results when they don't meet resistance, such as Hellions and Reapers, partially because they lack options against other then light units and because they don't have moving shot. -Rarely an option to use skills exeptionally useful. Most monkeys could hit an EMP, Storm or Fungal Growth. -Positioning still is a part of micro in some parts (in combat positioning mostly) -Amount of possible skill investment and best possible result seem very limited compared to SC:BW and Wc3:TFT. -Games with closely stacked armies that are not spread over the map often forbid attempts of dealing damage with few units -Tactical choices are more important than how you execute them. Rock-paper-scissors-stats-comparison-Battles.
What could be changed: -High ground advantage -More units that require positioning or cool skills, like Lurkers (positioning aspect), Dark Swarm or Spider Mines (a potentially deadly skill but the result heavily depends on both players' micro - HSM is a too late and rare replacement for it) -Larger maps and better defensive options so matches split over the map. -Less close stacking of grouped units. Right now splitting against AoE might be a skill factor,but splitted armies also had disadvantages, such as beeing more vulnerable to hit and run or good positioned units -Bringing back moving shot and diminish damage/range numbers of affected units instead (See LaLuSh's great Article)
Some other notifications: -Micro takes away a little bit of importance from tactics and countering, although too bad tactical choices will result in an unsolvable task plus, it will always be an uphill battle if a player tries to rely completely on micro. -It adds way more versatility to the choice of potential tactics and allows to take more calculated risks, such as "If I use my army super well or use those units good enough to make a really nice harass, I have enough spare ressources to expand earlier". This is way different to the current feeling "I can expand earlier but it depends on his scouting or timings or details in his build I cannot know yet.", it gives you more control about what happens. -Balance has a less direct effect on gameplay when there is also alot of micro that decides of the outcome in certain situations. Maybe, for example, Protoss have it way too hard to defend against Mutalisks with using corsairs and cannons (it really just is any random example, please don't constrain it on the specific situation), however it remains possible. Players won't be as tempted to blame balance when they loose to it because they now "dammit, I could have done better!", as when there is few micro aspect like Phoenix/Cannon vs Mutalisk in SC2.
It can be the pure essence of what people want to see when they watch games! Listen to the audience:
Or just remind how incredibly famous this video by Moon is:
And just check the number of views on this video to confirm how obsessed people are with micro. It shows a keyboard, a mouse and two hands using them. How many people would watch 16 minutes of keyboard usage if it wasn't some incredible micro god's keyboard?
Actually I'm obsessed with microing as well. As bad as I sucked in WC3 for a long time (as a human player who dislikes towers as static defense of own bases, <3 towerrush), 220 avg/400+infight apm made up some nice moments. Really, how boring is it to just win by producing the right unit and doing a-click. I want to tear my opponent's forces apart right on the field by using what I have as well as I can.
And I must agree that micro moments are the most exciting part of Brood War. I'm all for macroing up and rolling over my opponent, but you really can't beat the feeling when a spider mine kills 10 probes just because a zealot walked by.
On April 28 2010 12:02 LxRogue wrote: Yeah it's the same idea as dropship micro. Moon had a bunch of low hp archers and abused their cooldowns perfectly to force the other hero back.
yea boxer on jungle story is first example of this shit. PP 2002 or something
On April 28 2010 11:33 AmstAff wrote: was the moon vs sky thing something like dropship micro in sc1? i dunno wc3 so dont laugh -_-
Lets say its even better, as you can see many ranged shots totally miss because it's not that hard to react in time and load the target into the zeppelin before it gets hit. There are pretty much no "instant" range attacks like marine shots, most projectiles move slowly. Zeppelins are air transporters similar to dropships which you can buy at neutral buildings after you killed the neutral guardians in front of it.
On April 28 2010 12:12 arb wrote: you know the games in beta, shit can change right?
This is not exactly a balancing question. If you say TvP is broken right now, ok that will certainly change. Things like "how micro focussed is the gaming environment, the stuff players use to act - that's less likely to change. Of course I hope it will but I doubt that this might happen anytime soon. It would require alot (very very very much!) of rebalancing with most things that could be changed.
I'm trying to understand you guys here. Pardon me for not being a SCBW player. You post things like SK terran with Nada and similar. But these strategies and the perfection of them took years no?
Or are you simply saying that there never can be anything as micro-intensive as SK terran in SC2 cause it just doesn't allow the game to get that intensive?
Somehow I think you are expecting too many "Amazing micromoments" to come out of 2 months of betaplay, but as said, maybe you believe that wonderful micro-moments can not happen in SC2 due to certain mechanics.
Worst case scenario: Someone creates the game pros want through mods (There is legacy options for every unit, such as deceleration)
On April 29 2010 09:07 Cartina wrote: I'm trying to understand you guys here. Pardon me for not being a SCBW player. You post things like SK terran with Nada and similar. But these strategies and the perfection of them took years no?
It certainly did. However, it shows the extremes which are possible through micro. And most players, even though they play on a way lower level, have moments where they can use their level of micro successfully. These videos show extreme examples of situations in which players can use micro management to get the most out of a certain situation. It's also alot of having control over a situation and not just watching it happen as one often has to do in Starcraft 2 right now, struggling to get a good result out of it but feeling limited in possibilities. Oh plus, it's not only about how the game feels or how much professional players can develope their skills. It's also about the viewers who enjoy those moments and possibly wouldn't be viewers if they didn't exist.
On April 29 2010 09:07 Cartina wrote: Or are you simply saying that there never can be anything as micro-intensive as SK terran in SC2 cause it just doesn't allow the game to get that intensive?
Somehow I think you are expecting too many "Amazing micromoments" to come out of 2 months of betaplay, but as said, maybe you believe that wonderful micro-moments can not happen in SC2 due to certain mechanics.
Worst case scenario: Someone creates the game pros want through mods (There is legacy options for every unit, such as deceleration)
Yes, I say the game mechanics currently prohibit to use micro this successfully. With current level of experience players already had in RTS in general and have already in SC2 specificly, there would be amazing micro situations. However, there are not and there can't be many of those because of the game mechanics I described in OP. And yes, I bet there will be pro mods if SC2 itself won't develope these micro things (plus, there will be a Broodwar Mod no matter what) but I don't think that it's good for SC2 as an esports game. And common, nearly everybody hopes that it will be a great eSports game.
On April 29 2010 09:07 Cartina wrote: I'm trying to understand you guys here. Pardon me for not being a SCBW player. You post things like SK terran with Nada and similar. But these strategies and the perfection of them took years no?
Or are you simply saying that there never can be anything as micro-intensive as SK terran in SC2 cause it just doesn't allow the game to get that intensive?
Somehow I think you are expecting too many "Amazing micromoments" to come out of 2 months of betaplay, but as said, maybe you believe that wonderful micro-moments can not happen in SC2 due to certain mechanics.
Worst case scenario: Someone creates the game pros want through mods (There is legacy options for every unit, such as deceleration)
also, the thing to remember is that sc2 has sc1 has a predecessor. Starcraft Broodwar was starting from scratch, no one knew how deep micro could be now that sc2 beta is out, everyone is trying to find the new "it" micro trick. But so far, nothing has been found. People are applying everything they knew in scbw but it's not really doing anything, which leads us to believe that micro in sc2 is close to nonexistant
On April 29 2010 09:07 Cartina wrote: I'm trying to understand you guys here. Pardon me for not being a SCBW player. You post things like SK terran with Nada and similar. But these strategies and the perfection of them took years no?
Or are you simply saying that there never can be anything as micro-intensive as SK terran in SC2 cause it just doesn't allow the game to get that intensive?
Somehow I think you are expecting too many "Amazing micromoments" to come out of 2 months of betaplay, but as said, maybe you believe that wonderful micro-moments can not happen in SC2 due to certain mechanics.
Worst case scenario: Someone creates the game pros want through mods (There is legacy options for every unit, such as deceleration)
also, the thing to remember is that sc2 has sc1 has a predecessor. Starcraft Broodwar was starting from scratch, no one knew how deep micro could be now that sc2 beta is out, everyone is trying to find the new "it" micro trick. But so far, nothing has been found. People are applying everything they knew in scbw but it's not really doing anything, which leads us to believe that micro in sc2 is close to nonexistant
when people were first playing SCBW they probably moved on from another RTS, and were thinking "wow im betting micro in this game doesnt even work"
im betting overtime what will happen is much like sc1, micro tricks will be found here and there by accident much like in sc1
On April 29 2010 09:07 Cartina wrote: I'm trying to understand you guys here. Pardon me for not being a SCBW player. You post things like SK terran with Nada and similar. But these strategies and the perfection of them took years no?
Or are you simply saying that there never can be anything as micro-intensive as SK terran in SC2 cause it just doesn't allow the game to get that intensive?
Somehow I think you are expecting too many "Amazing micromoments" to come out of 2 months of betaplay, but as said, maybe you believe that wonderful micro-moments can not happen in SC2 due to certain mechanics.
Worst case scenario: Someone creates the game pros want through mods (There is legacy options for every unit, such as deceleration)
also, the thing to remember is that sc2 has sc1 has a predecessor. Starcraft Broodwar was starting from scratch, no one knew how deep micro could be now that sc2 beta is out, everyone is trying to find the new "it" micro trick. But so far, nothing has been found. People are applying everything they knew in scbw but it's not really doing anything, which leads us to believe that micro in sc2 is close to nonexistant
when people were first playing SCBW they probably moved on from another RTS, and were thinking "wow im betting micro in this game doesnt even work"
im betting overtime what will happen is much like sc1, micro tricks will be found here and there by accident much like in sc1
Sadly, I don't see much room left for such micro tricks to be discovered. These super old 2D engines were kinda vulnerable to allow different exploits which could be used in a micro intense way. Nowadays there is a lot more testing and stuff like all these values for units that forbid things. Also, there are not many skills anymore that could be as game defining as stuff like reaver-shuttle or spidermines.
On April 29 2010 09:07 Cartina wrote: I'm trying to understand you guys here. Pardon me for not being a SCBW player. You post things like SK terran with Nada and similar. But these strategies and the perfection of them took years no?
Or are you simply saying that there never can be anything as micro-intensive as SK terran in SC2 cause it just doesn't allow the game to get that intensive?
Somehow I think you are expecting too many "Amazing micromoments" to come out of 2 months of betaplay, but as said, maybe you believe that wonderful micro-moments can not happen in SC2 due to certain mechanics.
Worst case scenario: Someone creates the game pros want through mods (There is legacy options for every unit, such as deceleration)
also, the thing to remember is that sc2 has sc1 has a predecessor. Starcraft Broodwar was starting from scratch, no one knew how deep micro could be now that sc2 beta is out, everyone is trying to find the new "it" micro trick. But so far, nothing has been found. People are applying everything they knew in scbw but it's not really doing anything, which leads us to believe that micro in sc2 is close to nonexistant
when people were first playing SCBW they probably moved on from another RTS, and were thinking "wow im betting micro in this game doesnt even work"
im betting overtime what will happen is much like sc1, micro tricks will be found here and there by accident much like in sc1
That was also pretty much at the beginning of time, RTS-timeline-wise. Now people know, in general, what to look for in things like micro and are generally not as clueless about most overarching RTS themes as they used to be. Things should be discovered much faster than they were in BW.
And let's not forget that if some really game changing trick on par with stacked mutas comes out, it'll probably get patched lololol.
On April 30 2010 17:46 lew wrote: I really hope that blizzard adds the vulture with spidermines again. Give back the lurker and please remove the baneling...
Baneling is a good new unit think. It requires alot of micro, and especially positioning for both sides. Although I'ld change them a little, like smaller splash more damage, so they don't prohibit any kind of marine/zergling in late game. Maybe also make them slightly slower so it's possible to kill more of them if micro is good.
You do realise the baneling can be used as a spider mine right? BW vs SC2 arguements are getting old. New game, new players, if you don't like it stick to BW and let the people who play SC2 enjoy it for what it is.
Change is hard to overcome and if you don't have the same units in the game it can be hard to adapt to the unknown, thus you give up and go back to what you know.
On May 01 2010 02:18 Kralic wrote: You do realise the baneling can be used as a spider mine right? BW vs SC2 arguements are getting old. New game, new players, if you don't like it stick to BW and let the people who play SC2 enjoy it for what it is.
Change is hard to overcome and if you don't have the same units in the game it can be hard to adapt to the unknown, thus you give up and go back to what you know.
The point is that I, as a Terran Player, see way less possiblities to show good micro and accomplish cost efficiency during battle that goes over pure synergy of units and very basic positioning. I cannot build any banelings.
EPT
