EPTI bolded some of what I said for emphasis...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=Ryu=- says:
in all honesty
we need a game where there are multiple complex skills which require knowledge of use and consequences of each. None of this "Lol i nuked juu and cannoned u to deth lulz"
Either give me a game where it's all micro and has fancy explosions and epic battles and fast moving units and diverse environments that are interactable and have a far-reaching base that has simple but effective use, OR, give me a game where every move needs to be considered with equal weight and the one who manages their economy the best whilst still maintaining tactical authority basically will have the upper hand. Starcraft did the former. AoE3 did the latter. SC2 is trying for both, but in doing so both have suffered considerably, and its potential is not lived up to.
Nic-
You're incorrect
Sc2 is trying for both, but they've ended up doing #2
-=Ryu=- says:
by way of technology and diversity yes
but not economy
Nic-
No, not by way of technology and diversity
SC2 is good because you need to be solid
If your micro is worse than the opponents, he can out micro you and make his economy more effective
If your macro is worse, he'll eventually bulldoze through you with more power
if your map control is worse, you'll be starved of resources
-=Ryu=- says:
I understand, but I don't like their approach
they may have created a fine game, but I don't really like it yet
Nic-
what are you trying for?
you havent played it yet
-=Ryu=- says:
I've played it enough to know that it smells of gimmick
Nic-
Pfft.
you've not played it then
-=Ryu=- says:
most of the units are a marketing tactic
it has to be
Nic-
uhm...
why...?
explain that to me for a second
-=Ryu=- says:
because it's a more competitive world than it was in the 90s. Instead of building an awesome game that remains true to the simplicity of the original, they appeal to the graphics whores and the people that go all googley eyed at the aspect of transformable planes and new features. It's an age of new features. So instead they build an appealing arsenal and work to balance it, rather than starting with balance and working for appeal. It's a fanboyish thing, yet on a global scale. It's ingenious, really. They've got everyone fooled
It's exactly like pokemon, but less obvious
Nic-
er...
You realize you just severely criticized a game for having it's design foundation as "Cool and fun" right?
-=Ryu=- says:
if you think that you've missed my point entirely and work to actually prove it further
Nic-
Your point is that they designed the game so that people will like it, instead of designing it as an eSport
-=Ryu=- says:
My point is that people like it because they're coaxed into liking it. The /idea/ of it sounds so grand and superb, but at what point do we step back and say "wait a minute here. You're only doing this to get my money." My point is
it's all the same
they don't actually improve anything about it
they make it look nice
have fancy units
whatever
but it's the same
game
Nic-
Jared, the units are less fancy then sc1, they just look nice. Lurkers, dark swarm, those are more gimmicky than what's in most of SC2
you're absolutely wrong
And I feel your opinion is biased because the graphics of the game /are/ nice
They made the graphics good, yes
they made the units cool, yes
-=Ryu=- says:
not to me
Nic-
Fine then, not to you
But the design team created the game with the foundation if "let's make a game with a diverse and enjoyable arsenal competitive and balanced enough to be an eSport to the most harsh of critics"
-=Ryu=- says:
failed in my books
Nic-
I think that is a fantastic way to go about making a game.
You're too quick to criticize because of the style of art and the particle effects and the way the units are advertised
You're completely forgetting that the game is supposed to be enjoyable and easy to look at
If you feel the units are gimmicky,
that's fine.
But the gameplay is solid and the game looks nice.
I'll tell you what you sound like
You sound like a Wind Waker critic
and this game is only in Beta
-=Ryu=- says:
for the record
I love Wind Waker
better than twilight princess actually
Nic-
I'm not going to argue with you
-=Ryu=- says:
I don't see how it's /not/ gimmicky
at all
Nic-
What's gimmicky?
Name a gimmicky unit
-=Ryu=- says:
you've got planes that warm up, units that warp in from remote areas, supply depots built for walling, planes that transform
I could go on
warm up before they shoot*
etc
you know
all of that
Nic-
That's the artistic style, a "warming up" effect is nothing but aesthetics representing a delay in firing
-=Ryu=- says:
nuh-uh. It does more damage the more it's firing
every single unit has something weird now
Nic-
Oh, you mean void rays?
-=Ryu=- says:
yeah
Nic-
Pfft,
-=Ryu=- says:
even marines
for crying out loud
Nic-
Their is nothing wrong with void rays
marines?
wtf are you talking about with marines
-=Ryu=- says:
they're gimmicky now
Nic-
er...no?
-=Ryu=- says:
all bulky and with all those powerups
Nic-
they're mostly same as they were in sc1
-=Ryu=- says:
advertised as something else
no
they were different
Nic-
they dont have any new powerup
-=Ryu=- says:
yeah
Nic-
-=Ryu=- says:
more health
they were cheap little things in SC1 because they were meant to be
I say all this at the risk of being a purist, but I'm not simply because I don't care if your units are all new
I really dont
I like it
but I don't like this approach
Nic-
THEY'RE CHEAP LITTLE THINGS IN SC2 TOO. You seem to neglect the fact that the limitations at the time of SC are most responsible for how it looks
You think if Pac-Man was made in 2009 it would look like the Atari game!?
Of course not
-=Ryu=- says:
it would still suck
Nic-
You think if Dune 2000 was made now it would look like it did 10 years ago?
No
You think if the original C&C came out last year, it would have the same artistic style as it did years ago?
Of course not
Marines have more health, that's a balance change. The aesthetics are purely to reflect what the marines in the original Sc SHOULD have looked like
Immortals are what the dragoons SHOULD have looked like and WOULD have looked like if Blizzard had the resources to make them that way
-=Ryu=- says:
games like starcraft are amazing not because of their graphics, not because of their technology. They were amazing because the people that made it thought "hey, lets make this enjoyable and fun for everyone." I'm sorry, but if you think that's really the goal for everyone at Blizzard, then this conversation ends here. There are people on their team which live, breathe, off of exploiting people like you, and I won't stand for it. I hate it. That's why gaming is a multi-billion dollar industry. They're experts. They know how to make people buy a game. I'm afraid I won't be buying many games from here on out.
Nic-
Void Rays are a concept that have been around for fucking years
You just dont like the idea
They're gattling guns, dealing more damage the longer they fire. They've had the concept in 2 Unreal Tournament games
it's been in dozens of other games as well
Listen, I play ZERG on MINIMUM GRAPHICS SETTINGS. All I see ingame are little bug fucks in 32 colours. I play the game because it's fun, not because it looks good or because I get gimmicky units.
-=Ryu=- says:
you're just twisting my words now, you don't think I see that
you said it yourself
THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE
can I be any more clear
we're not actually arguing about anything here
Nic-
YOU CAN'T HAVE A SEQUEL WITHOUT RECYCLING A FEW IDEAS
-=Ryu=- says:
I'm sorry, but you absolutely can
Nic-
You can't have NO gimmicky units and NO redos and NO fancy new graphics
-=Ryu=- says:
That's fine then, I'm not buying something that's the same as games have been for years.
Nic-
The thing is, when you make a sequel, things have to change
those things are artistic changes and gameplay changes
the art is evolved, and the gameplay is different
-=Ryu=- says:
you've never played ratchet and clank?
Nic-
Of course I've played Ratchet and Clank
that type of single player game is absolutely and completely different territory than an RTS
ESPECIALLY one that's being hyped as the next eSport
-=Ryu=- says:
whatever
I'm sleeping now
because you're going in circles
Nic-
but they can't invent a new game and call it a sequel
and when they do, you can't criticize the game for being different
-=Ryu=- says:
final fantasy?
Nic-
You want the best of everything
and incase you havnt noticed
the new final fantasies tend to suck
-=Ryu=- says:
in whose books
Nic-
the majority
-=Ryu=- says:
certainly not in the pocketbooks, FF13 is the most widely-selling final fantasy in history
Nic-
how many FF games are there, 13? How many GOOD ones are there, 5?
-=Ryu=- says:
that's all that matters now
Nic-
Final fantasy 13 was crap
and you know it
-=Ryu=- says:
you know what
Nic-
If you want to argue pocketbooks
-=Ryu=- says:
final fantasy 13 was freaking amazing
Nic-
SC2 is the best rts of all time
-=Ryu=- says:
because the creators of it said "hey, we care about this franchise. Lets try something different"
and for goodness sake
they did it
very very weel
well*
Nic-
Final Fantasy 13 had bland who-gives-a-fuck characters and a storyline that I couldnt care less about
-=Ryu=- says:
you obviously haven't played /that/
because if you get to the end the characters are more unique and more developed than even 9's characters were
it says something about society too, it sends a message about everyday life and realism
Nic-
What you don't understand is that you're asking SC2 to be the same as SC1, as well as different in every way, non-gimmicky, have completely new ideas, but still feel the same and play the same without being "the same old rts"
Fuck off.
and obviously i agree with you.
