• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:26
CEST 20:26
KST 03:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Who will win EWC 2025? Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Corsair Pursuit Micro? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pro gamer house photos Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 676 users

Moment of Clarity

Blogs > Osmoses
Post a Reply
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-04 11:01:40
April 04 2010 10:58 GMT
#1
Lots of nitpicking coming up.

Moment of clarity, what the alcoholics refer to. I get them usually when I've just woken up.

This one was about SC2. I woke up and became convinced that SC2 is a game of gimmicks. Cliffjumper harassers, RPG slowers, kiting flamethrowers, high damage shields, antigrav anti air, anti air robotech-into-goliath harassers, the fucking voidrays, the fucking mothership, the medievac, roach regen, and that I think is the list.

I liked BW, so I take my leaf out of its book. There weren't alot of gimmicks in it. There were no designated harass units. There were no units specifically pigeonholed to do any specific task. There were subtle differences, like range, damage, damage type and speed, that was it. They just shot at the enemy, and eventually people settled for favorite units for certain tasks. There were no cliffjumpers with "harasser" written in caps on its forehead, or a unit that was only good vs units with high health. Or a Dragoon that was specifically designed to be good vs mech and bad vs bio. Or an arbiter that for some reason was deemed too good to have more than one of. I mean really, is that really gonna turn the tide in the lategame?

Then I played a couple of games and it was still alot of fun. I just dunno if that's gonna last if Blizzard keeps telling me how to play. I personally feel the units in SC2 need a de-gimmifycation. Frankly, I think a removal of all passive abilities would be enough. No more marauder slow, no more immortal shields, etc, and axe the void ray completely. Forgetting to get anti air should be an expensive blunder, but a succesfully proxied stargate shouldn't be an automatic win. The cliffjumping/walking I can live with, but I don't like it, I think its a redundant gimmick. It only matters early game anyway (as all units can be dropped from ships or nydus later on), so what is the point?

Also, make viking landing a research and ground the medievac. Why should someone getting anti-air get a harasser for free, and why should someone getting a medic get a dropship for free? Elimination of choice? For what reason?

On a totally different topic, like completely different, Zergs are supposed to swarm. Why is it that they made the roach, a tier1 tank, and turned the previously plentiful hydralisk into small-number hulks? The whole point of the Zerg was that they were supposed to have three times as much stuff as you that died twice as fast. So far only the zerglings swarm, but they still seem to take too long to die.

I wanna see a zillion hydralisks melt to tank fire damnit, and I want the zerg to send a zillion more within the next minute!

Might as well squeeze in some extra whining while I'm at it; the hellion, the marauder, the reaper and the viking are boring. And is there a reason why units have to stop completely before they can fire besides making microing redundant?

I know, I'm nitpicking, but I hope you won't blame me for wanting a game I've waited over 10 years for to be exactly as I want it.

***
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Dark.Carnival
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States5095 Posts
April 04 2010 11:18 GMT
#2
So... you just want SC2 to be the exact same as Broodwar?
@QxGDarkCell ._.
yB.TeH
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Germany414 Posts
April 04 2010 11:20 GMT
#3
no he doesnt want it to be C&C XY
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
April 04 2010 11:23 GMT
#4
My feelings exactly. I don't see myself following competitive SC2.
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-04 11:38:07
April 04 2010 11:35 GMT
#5
I totally agree with you on every point.

I think the reason every unit has to be gimicky and do +10000 damage against this and this type of armor, have special attack types (slow etc), have ridicilous amounts of armor (only for the purpose of being a designated "hard counter"), is because the game engine was coded bad from the start.

If units can't fire without acting like retards and decelerating or coming to a full stop, you have to create "hard counters" to compensate for this, because there is no such thing as defending with an inferior force.

For example in bw: 1 canon and 3 corsairs can hold 7-8 mutalisks WITH MICRO because corsairs can get off cheap shots while the mutas have attack cooldown (and because the moving shot mechanic exists). In SC2, if you decide to engage with 3 air units against 7-8 you will have to COMMIT everytime because the engine is coded so bad they can't figure out how to implement a proper moving shot.

Basically in SC2: The defense radius an inferior force of air units can cover is the radius of the canon range, because you cannot in any circumstance engage a superior air force outside of this radius. In BW air units could easily move around at the edge of the canons range and cover twice as big of a radius if one could micro properly.

I think with a properly coded engine they wouldn't have had to give every single unit a specific +superdamage against specific types of units/armor. But instead could've had a one size fits all damage system that BW had.
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
April 04 2010 11:56 GMT
#6
I agree.

BW was a ball you could play with. You could throw the ball anywhere you wanted and it bounced.

SC2 is of bunch of railroads with the ball attached to it. Sure the ball moves similarly in SOME cases, but it isn't free and thus the game isn't alive like BW was.

The fact(or is it just opinion?) that Blizzard is struggling to make a worthy sequel even after 10 years of additional experience proves that StarCraft BroodWar came directly from GOD, Blizzard only published it.
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
April 04 2010 12:08 GMT
#7
broodwar was a fluke
Murderotica
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Vatican City State2594 Posts
April 04 2010 12:59 GMT
#8
I like your train of thought here. I want to hear some opposing perspectives though.
ǝsnoɥ ssɐlƃ ɐ uı sǝuoʇs ʍoɹɥʇ ʇ,uop || sıʇɹoɟ ɹǝdɯǝs
JohnColtrane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Australia4813 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-04 13:57:52
April 04 2010 13:56 GMT
#9
On April 04 2010 21:08 lazz wrote:
broodwar was a fluke


yeah i agree with this

blizzard getting lucky with original units and balance + community/proscene balancing = sick game

dunno if they can get lucky again

imo blizz should have just made another expansion for brood war with a 4th race (the xel naga!!) and spent like 10 years testing and trying to balance it with the current 3 race's units. that would have been way more fun and interesting but hey i guess it wont make as much $$$
HEY MEYT
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
April 04 2010 15:31 GMT
#10
maybe blizz should just roll like 200 dice and randomize all the values and stuff for units and stuff, but there wouold be a range of dice rolls for each e.g. minearl gas costs would be minimum 50 or something and in increments of 25 blbahlba haaha and just see if the game works out that way lolool
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
intrudor
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada446 Posts
April 04 2010 15:44 GMT
#11
USER MIGHT BE WARNED FOR THIS COMMENT
milo
Profile Joined February 2010
116 Posts
April 04 2010 16:31 GMT
#12
don't sweat it man, they've got 2 expansions and an endless number of patches to get things right
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 15h 35m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mcanning 256
UpATreeSC 194
BRAT_OK 144
MindelVK 28
EmSc Tv 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 580
EffOrt 498
Larva 493
Soma 415
firebathero 281
BeSt 209
Stork 169
Mind 147
Free 60
Shine 18
[ Show more ]
ivOry 3
Dota 2
XaKoH 354
League of Legends
Grubby3304
Counter-Strike
fl0m1716
flusha403
Other Games
FrodaN3481
Beastyqt755
ceh9475
B2W.Neo322
KnowMe191
Trikslyr55
Organizations
StarCraft 2
ComeBackTV 728
EmSc Tv 23
EmSc2Tv 23
Other Games
BasetradeTV0
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 96
• Adnapsc2 11
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki42
• HerbMon 27
• 80smullet 7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• FirePhoenix0
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4114
• masondota21031
League of Legends
• TFBlade959
Other Games
• imaqtpie1033
• Shiphtur414
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
15h 35m
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
1d 15h
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.