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Can you ask a question that prevents the SC players from answering, assuming the HoN player's response is a completely random coin flip regardless of the question asked.
"Among you is someone who always tells lies, if I were to ask that person "Will your response to this question be yes?" what would their response be?"
Truth: "Will your response to this question be yes?" is answered truthfully by yes and no. No way to lie as a response.
Liar: Is the liar in question so is just like the Truth response, cannot answer the question with a lie (I think here there would be another opposite applied due to it being a question about what his response would be to a question, but it doesn't affect the fact he still can't reply).
HoN: Picks a random response 50/50
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@handfish
Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
Also I'm not really sure how to answer the question you proposed, it's self-referring. I guess that is the point, so if you get an answer that means it must've been chosen at random? but consider what i said above.
re: below
His answer is not random, but his decision to lie or to tell the truth might as well be considered as such (consider the coin analogy). The two are not the same.
Trying to influence the HoN player to lie or to tell the truth turns this into a psychological problem which was not the intent.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 04:32 JeeJee wrote:
That's an interesting answer.
However.. there's kind of an implicit assumption that the HoN player is telling the truth about his capacity to lie. He could lie about his capacity to lie and even though he's willing to lie, he could say 'no'. I'm not sure if that makes sense?
it seems to me this is more of a psychological answer as you're playing off of what is in the "best interests" of the HoN player, correct me if I'm wrong.
This isn't intended to be a psychology problem
In which case, you're saying the HoN player's answer is essentially random. If his decisions are not explicitly based on what he perceives to be his best interest, then the only thing they could possibly be based on is random whim, because there are no other rules set forth for how he can answer.
If such is the case, there's no yes/no question you can put forth to solve this, because you have to be able to guarantee what the HoN player will answer to be able to guarantee that someone isn't the HoN player.
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Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
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On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote:
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
I was thinking along the same lines.
It's an impossible puzzle :[
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On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote:
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though.
I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is:
-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it.
It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it.
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On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote:
@handfish
Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption.
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On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote:
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: Show nested quote +-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it.
Eh?
Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things?
Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key?
I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can.
Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts.
On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote:
@handfish
Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption.
Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes.
Why hasn't his answer been verified?
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On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote:
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote:
@handfish
Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified?
I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong
His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD
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United States47024 Posts
"Is it simultaneously the case that your answer to this question is fixed, and that you will to lie to me or that your answer to this question is not fixed and that you will tell the truth?"
Truth-teller: Answer is fixed (because he will always tell the truth), will tell the truth - answers no.
Liar: Answer is fixed (because he will always lie), will lie - answers no (reverse of truth)
HoN player:
- Answer is not fixed, will tell the truth - answers yes
- Answer is not fixed, will lie - answers yes (reverse of truth)
Edit: just realized that my answer is the same as FoieGras's just way more clumsily worded (using fixed-answer instead of HoN player as a way of distinguishing the HoN player XD).
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On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it.
It also doesn't say that once he decides to lie or not, he has to answer the whole question assuming he lies/tells the truth.  I guess you really need a perfectly logical mind not to make the assumption that the HoN's answers would be unreliable, from the rule that he lies or tells the truth whenever he feels like it. The rule doesn't say that, it's true. The puzzle would be much easier if you framed it like "the HoN player either always lies or always tells the truth, but you don't know which."
Thanks for the fun puzzle!
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On February 13 2010 06:30 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. It also doesn't say that once he decides to lie or not, he has to answer the whole question assuming he lies/tells the truth. I guess you really need a perfectly logical mind not to make the assumption that the HoN's answers would be unreliable, from the rule that he lies or tells the truth whenever he feels like it. The rule doesn't say that, it's true. The puzzle would be much easier if you framed it like "the HoN player either always lies or always tells the truth, but you don't know which." Thanks for the fun puzzle!
Thanks, I will keep that in mind for the next re-telling if there is one ^_^ still I think the natural assumption is that the answer is unreliable if it's framed like that, but it is less ambiguous for sure. I'll edit the OP for any newcomers to the thread.
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The "choose to lie or tell the truth" rather than "choose an answer randomly" part got me stuck for a long time to be honest. Had to re-read the question quite a few times before I got that.
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On February 13 2010 06:29 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote:
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote:
@handfish
Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified? I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD
On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer.
This is the part I'm referring to. o_O
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On February 13 2010 06:38 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:29 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote:
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote:
@handfish
Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified? I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. This is the part I'm referring to. o_O
yep, but that doesn't mean he gives a random answer =) foiegras' answer illustrates quite well (and klive5's on the first page does too) that there are questions that only have one answer regardless of whether you're lying or not.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 06:38 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. This is the part I'm referring to. o_O
Yes, he's choosing whether to lie. The trick is, you have to phrase a question that the HoN player gives the same answer to, regardless of whether he's telling the truth or lying, and at the same time being different from the answer the Starcraft players would give (which must also be identical to one another).
@JeeJee, the question is more explainable if you have 4 people: 2 HoN players and 2 SC players. One HoN player and one SC player each always lie, and one HoN player and one SC player always tell the truth. It's basically the same, because with 3, you're basically choosing randomly from the HoN player's 2 alter egos (the liar and the truth-teller).
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On February 13 2010 06:42 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:38 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:29 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote:
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote:
@handfish
Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified? I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. This is the part I'm referring to. o_O yep, but that doesn't mean he gives a random answer =) foiegras' answer illustrates quite well (and klive5's on the first page does too) that there are questions that only have one answer regardless of whether you're lying or not.
Ah, now I understand the difference. At first I interpreted giving a random answer as being the same as choosing an answer randomly. >_<
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the trick is to get the absolutes(Always and never) to get the same result and the sometimes responses(sometimes lies and sometimes tells the truth) to yield the same result, but different than the absolutes.
I was thinking of something like, "Sometimes you tell a lie responding Yes"
I know this doesn't work but hopefully it'll help someone as I haven't thought about this too much and want to because I love these problems!!!! Keep it up jeejee :-)
Truth=>will say no because he or she doesnt tell a lie
Liar=>will say no because the statement is true, and he or she does sometimes respond yes to his lie.
Hon truth=> will respond YES
Hon liar=>will respond No because he or she does infact sometimes tell a lie responding yes
I think the logic play is somewhere hidden with the absolutes vs sometimes, and that might be in there. I hope this helps some people!
I'm going to try to figure this out later tonight :-)
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EPT
