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Well, after getting steamrolled on iCCup on a couple times a cpl days ago on HBR, I thought to myself "isn't there some 4 gate crazy goon rush that will run this right over (early 1 fact timing push)?"
well I was wrong I was thinking about the 4 gate goon rush in PvP. But the more I think about it, on the D/D+ RANKS this would be a wild build to throw at someone. It has like 11 range goons and 2 lots at 6 minutes, which i a time when T normally has 2-4 Vultures, 1-2 Tanks, and 4-6 marines he can push/defend with.
My new goal is to win a game with this same build in PvT on HBR. Imagine the reaction a D player will do when I throw down my 2nd pylon on 12.... and build gas on 16.
I think I can make it work if I send my scouting probe to mine out the 0 min in the 3rd base right after he does his initial scout.
So I will keep you updated, I might try it in a bit!
 
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Anything works at the D/D+ level. I'm sure this strat could work. if the terran just goes normal FD terran and doesn't adapt to your huge goon numbers and take advantage of your lack of observers.
But as far as all in builds against FD terran goes, this probably wouldn't be my first choice...
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So wait, you're gonna beat an FD (1 fact timing push? I can't think of anything else, maybe strong FD) by making FOUR gateways. FOUR of them. Then make 11 goons and 2 zealots to beat 1 tank 6 marines? I think you're going to want to rethink your build, because it's simply going to hit way too late.
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I think when the terran sees that you don't have an expansion and have a ridiculous amount of goons he'll just mine up like crazy and your bulid will be gg'd
I doubt this build would work on anybody who has thoughts.
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On November 22 2009 07:24 Adeny wrote:
So wait, you're gonna beat an FD (1 fact timing push? I can't think of anything else, maybe strong FD) by making FOUR gateways. FOUR of them. Then make 11 goons and 2 zealots to beat 1 tank 6 marines? I think you're going to want to rethink your build, because it's simply going to hit way too late.
I should have noted I am doing this for the fun factor more than ne thing. Plus the strongest part of my game is my dragoon micro. I'm not doin it for a pile of wins, just somethin to keep it fresh.
Hell I mean cmon I have won with Sair/DT in PvT at the D Levels, it can work! lol
Plus imagine if the other player does not know PvP builds, he will either think I'm b.net newb or just not have a clue what is going on.
I know it's not a top strat but I like to keep it orginal. There is more to SC for me than pts on iCCup.
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Go for it! If it doesn't work you always have plan B: DTs.
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On November 22 2009 07:45 Nytefish wrote:
Go for it! If it doesn't work you always have plan B: DTs.
lol tru and I have won prolly 40% of my games with 1-2 dt's.
I played nothing but campaign, lans, or vs comp with no clue of what micro/macro/bo's//apm was until about december of last year. and didn't start playing util this season (got up to about 2600 pts yesterday which was cool!). so I have 10 or so yrs of very bad habits to kick. my macro is almost non-existent (like 24-30 in long games, 35-50 in short ones in BWchart), because i am largely a mouse based player. thus i an control
that's y this build is appealing to me, it forces a low-econ game. at a minimum I can turn it into a righteous contain because HBR has no high ground for the T to work with, if anything I will have it. so i can turn this into a mad contain and do something wild like DT drop if I know i can't break the main. i like playing micro battles, not macro.
again this is just for fun not a real strategy, thus y it's in the blogs not the strat section, i would never work on higher level i'm sure.
and also i'm not using this as a counter for FD, i'm going to use it when i decide to no matter what the opponent does. the cool thing with this BO and HBR is it gets a 2 really fast zealots for proxy defense and also the terran is unlikely to do a early 1 or 2 vulture rush. most of the games i play the T does not leave thier base until a tank is out, or they have 3+ vultures which is too late at that point.
vultures wont be able to break the main as i'll have 1-3 goons and 2 zealots with no expansion at thta point so i can clog the choke.
and an early attack based off the tank will be crazy underpowered vs 7-11 goons and 2 zealots.
now if they do something like 2 factory mine/speed maybe there could be a problem but that's a tricky build that you don't see much as d level.
idk just a cool random thing to challenge myself with.
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On November 22 2009 07:28 StarN wrote:
I think when the terran sees that you don't have an expansion and have a ridiculous amount of goons he'll just mine up like crazy and your bulid will be gg'd
I doubt this build would work on anybody who has thoughts.
he did say D... not many of us have actual thoughts, no time between trying to macro with <100 apm!
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On November 22 2009 08:10 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2009 07:28 StarN wrote:
I think when the terran sees that you don't have an expansion and have a ridiculous amount of goons he'll just mine up like crazy and your bulid will be gg'd
I doubt this build would work on anybody who has thoughts. he did say D... not many of us have actual thoughts, no time between trying to macro with <100 apm!
the d ranks do allow for some fun games for sure.
i contained a T for like 15 mins in his main on dest once. with like a total of 6 dt's... He broke the contain and i had like 4-5 bases up and running or sumitn like that
contained a T so hard in his nat on HBR that he ended up runnign out of mins and I had like 6 bases. that's the game i decided to make a ass-ton of archons at one point. i had like 6-8 gates just pumping HT's. i ended up with like 20 archons at some point.
actually contained a guy so hard with sair/dt in PvT that i was using Sairs to attack his science vessels and scout his base all game. i had his bad habit of going sair/dt for some reason in PvT when i started. My first BO i used was a DT FE. I had no idea what to actually do if the dt's didn't auto-win. so i would contain with sair/dt cause i was so lost lol. and it worked like 2-3 times too.
man i'm going to miss d ranks if i ever get to a C or higher level!
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On November 22 2009 07:28 StarN wrote:
I think when the terran sees that you don't have an expansion and have a ridiculous amount of goons he'll just mine up like crazy and your bulid will be gg'd
I doubt this build would work on anybody who has thoughts.
There is no reason why the terran would see either of those things. Hiding your goon numbers and denying a scouting scv are pretty easy to do.
I'm not saying the build will work, I'm just saying it wont fail for the reasons you stated.
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By the way if you're doing something crazy like this you might as well proxy the extra gateways.
What I mean is, not use the PvP version, but just make it look like 1 or 2 gate expo (pylon in nat, block scout, etc.) Then proxy your other gateways. He shouldn't scout it because it'll be past the initial "cheese phase".
The cheese phase never ends though.
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It will fail to mines though. no obs means you gotta be very very very careful anytime you wanna move somewhere which gives him time to get his shit in position. It's actually pretty easy to win with 4gate goon if they go siege expo but if they do 2fac vults you're fucked.
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Real men proxy 4gate.
But yeah mines will make this hurt. Hope you upload a replay though.
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probably better to just do 2 gate with a shuttle to elevator, since he'll have siege.mines to cockblock goons at the front completely..
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On November 22 2009 08:29 tossinYoSalad wrote:
It will fail to mines though. no obs means you gotta be very very very careful anytime you wanna move somewhere which gives him time to get his shit in position. It's actually pretty easy to win with 4gate goon if they go siege expo but if they do 2fac vults you're fucked.
it's defintly not a auto-win but i am very good with mine dragging. with dt's i think my record is like 13 mines with one dt,
my goon mine dragging is great in a low-econ game like this would have to be for it to work. in a one base scernario i can micro goons at about 185-200 APM, i just like it and have practiced with them alot. on a 3-4 base macro war however my goon micro sux cause i lose track of them, i'm only 85-100 apm average.
and alot of d's siege expo on HBR oddly enuff. seems to me like a bad map for it but i could be wrong i'm not a Terran player.
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On November 22 2009 07:02 Diamondback2 wrote:
Well, after getting steamrolled on iCCup on a couple times a cpl days ago on HBR, I thought to myself "isn't there some 4 gate crazy goon rush that will run this right over (early 1 fact timing push)?"
what is this 1fac timing push you are talking about?
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On November 22 2009 08:51 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2009 07:02 Diamondback2 wrote:
Well, after getting steamrolled on iCCup on a couple times a cpl days ago on HBR, I thought to myself "isn't there some 4 gate crazy goon rush that will run this right over (early 1 fact timing push)?"
what is this 1fac timing push you are talking about?
i'm not sure. it's when the terran attacks with either:
3-4 vultures
1 tank
3-4 marines
or
2-3 vultures
2 tanks
3-4 marines
i normally see it when i 12 nexus, but l8ly i have been seeing it alot. might be a FD of some sorts?
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On November 22 2009 08:55 Diamondback2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2009 08:51 Piste wrote:On November 22 2009 07:02 Diamondback2 wrote:
Well, after getting steamrolled on iCCup on a couple times a cpl days ago on HBR, I thought to myself "isn't there some 4 gate crazy goon rush that will run this right over (early 1 fact timing push)?"
what is this 1fac timing push you are talking about? i'm not sure. it's when the terran attacks with either: 3-4 vultures 1 tank 3-4 marines or 2-3 vultures 2 tanks 3-4 marines i normally see it when i 12 nexus, but l8ly i have been seeing it alot. might be a FD of some sorts?
That might be a FD or strong FD.
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Well I tried it and I'm happy to report I'm 1-0 with it  !
Played a 228 APM TSL'er and never even made any tech past a cyber core in 10 mins and won!
I'll make a BR for it tomorrow  !
PvP 4 Gate Goon in PvT HBR
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On November 22 2009 09:12 Diamondback2 wrote:Well I tried it and I'm happy to report I'm 1-0 with it ! Played a 228 APM TSL'er and never even made any tech past a cyber core in 10 mins and won! I'll make a BR for it tomorrow ! PvP 4 Gate Goon in PvT HBR
very nice.
classic strong fd is 6-10 marines and a tank with a vulture reinforcing. ive seen the build you're talking about and its quite strong.
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On November 22 2009 07:14 beefhamburger wrote:
How do you pass mines?
Idk, a little thing called micro?
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Well here's a quick rundown of how the game went.
His scout hits my base at 16 psi when I'm SUPPOSED to be building my gas. Instead for some reason I decide to build my gas should be built on 18 so the Terran gas steals ME! lol.
he gets it up to like 450 hp b4 i kill the SCV so I didn't get my gas till 23. so I build 3 zealots instead of 2.
completely confused by what he sees the opponent has a hardcore pause b4 he decides to siege expand. which is good as siege expanding is the totally wrong answer for what is about to come. being he has no scouting scv he doesn't see the 3 more gates and range all happen. when i attack around the 7 min mark (approx times just going off memory) with 3 zealots and 6 dragoons. needless to say his 4 sieged tanks and marine are very quickly overwhelmed.
i take control of the natural just a moment and only lost 2-3 goons in the process. now that his natural has been abandoned, i proceed to march right into his main with my initial army. i immediately take control of the staging area of his factories. at about the 8 min point it's pretty much gg as i have limited him to one base at a time and destroyed about 15 SCV's, 6 tanks, & 2 vultures, and a marine to boot.
by the 9 min mark it's beyond gg as i have destroyed now +5-10 scv's, another vulture, a bunker, +2 marines, and another 2 tanks, and unbeknown to him, i have mined out his 0 min patch so now i can control the high ground if i lose control of the main.
he proceeds to fight for another minute before he leaves (no gg, i can't imagine he was happy bout getting ran over by a million ranged goons.).
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what do you do if they put up bunker and sim city in the natural
i see a lot of terrans get bunker if they don't see an expand
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On November 22 2009 17:31 WhiteNights wrote:
what do you do if they put up bunker and sim city in the natural
i see a lot of terrans get bunker if they don't see an expand
remember i hit them with like 7 goons and a pair of zealots on the first attack. if they have a bunker without heavy support i'll eat it up.
the build that scares me the most is 2 fac vultures/mines. i can mine drag well but it slows down the attack so hardcore.
and in the game i won the guy simcity'd his natural and l8r built a bunker in it. neither helped !
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Calgary25980 Posts
What? How could you possibly break 4 tanks with 9 units? Did he not wall or something?
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I just watched the rep... and I don't think the T walled correctly... and also when he pulled his scvs, he basically opened up a path straight to the tanks. If he just kept those scvs there, the tanks would've made goo out of your goons. However, it totally caught him offguard and he panicked like crazy. Give us more reps if you keep doing it.
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something about pvz and, more pertinently, d-level in general: I've been trying to do standard 4gate/2archon and bisu build at d-level for a while. My timing isn't good, I make lots of little mistakes that accumulate and basically it comes down to whoevers macro is better. there are no reactions, change-up to pre-game plans or anything: me and my opponent tend to stick to exactly what our bo says and just go from there blindly because we dont take the time to think mid-game.
so when I get frustrated and just want some wins, I macro hard off of 1 base/2 gate. When I get nearly a control group I move out, then add 2 gateways and get one tech depending on what I see. my apm can handle it, I can micro the units right
the point is, d isn't a place that can prove the effectiveness of a build order.
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On November 22 2009 19:40 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
the point is, d isn't a place that can prove the effectiveness of a build order.
I'm not trying to prove effectiveness, if you read the whole post I am just having some fun... For the 10th time I understand this will not work past the D ranks. But that's y the D Ranks r fun, they allow you to do dumb shit like this and win if u do it right.
And chill it was likke an above poster said. He saw all the units and panicked hardcore, he pulled his SCV's from his natural to his main and opened up a nice path for my goons. plus he had some really weird wall to top it off. Check out the replay if you want to see more.
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On November 22 2009 08:55 Diamondback2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2009 08:51 Piste wrote:On November 22 2009 07:02 Diamondback2 wrote:
Well, after getting steamrolled on iCCup on a couple times a cpl days ago on HBR, I thought to myself "isn't there some 4 gate crazy goon rush that will run this right over (early 1 fact timing push)?"
what is this 1fac timing push you are talking about? i'm not sure. it's when the terran attacks with either: 3-4 vultures 1 tank 3-4 marines or 2-3 vultures 2 tanks 3-4 marines i normally see it when i 12 nexus, but l8ly i have been seeing it alot. might be a FD of some sorts?
Terrans who push like this are godawful. This timing does not exist, and if it won you are using a very poor 12nex build.
Your build can only beat shitty players, but you've already acknowledged that, so I have no idea why you posted it in a strategy forum. Btw, terran can lingtight wall on HBR with 2 depots and a rax.
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On November 23 2009 02:20 duckett wrote:
Terrans who push like this are godawful. This timing does not exist, and if it won you are using a very poor 12nex build.
Your build can only beat shitty players, but you've already acknowledged that, so I have no idea why you posted it in a strategy forum. Btw, terran can lingtight wall on HBR with 2 depots and a rax.
Dude this is the blogs forum. I think you might need to throw on ur glasses. Because this is a bad strat that I am doing FOR FUNm I did not put it in the strat forum, i put it in the blogs, as i stated above......
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On November 23 2009 02:38 Diamondback2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2009 02:20 duckett wrote:
Terrans who push like this are godawful. This timing does not exist, and if it won you are using a very poor 12nex build.
Your build can only beat shitty players, but you've already acknowledged that, so I have no idea why you posted it in a strategy forum. Btw, terran can lingtight wall on HBR with 2 depots and a rax. Dude this is the blogs forum. I think you might need to throw on ur glasses. Because this is a bad strat that I am doing FOR FUNm I did not put it in the strat forum, i put it in the blogs, as i stated above......
oops, my fault. It's kinda frustrating though that people like you and many others screw around with trashy builds at the d level for players who are actually playing through d ranks trying to refine a build. kids end up getting out of d after getting their builds barely down and then getting trashed by people who can macro and understand the game a little bit better. just like how you can beat so many people just by building like 2 dts.
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Why make things so complicating? Simple solution: DT Rush.
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On November 23 2009 05:21 duckett wrote:
oops, my fault. It's kinda frustrating though that people like you and many others screw around with trashy builds at the d level for players who are actually playing through d ranks trying to refine a build. kids end up getting out of d after getting their builds barely down and then getting trashed by people who can macro and understand the game a little bit better. just like how you can beat so many people just by building like 2 dts.
you bring up a good point. but in the same token it teaches them how to think on the fly and deal with unorthodox play.
On November 23 2009 05:23 Amnesia wrote:
Why make things so complicating? Simple solution: DT Rush.
i've won prolly 30-40% of my games with DT FE. Want to try something new and Medusa or Tau Cross aren't MOTW so I can't 10/.15. I've played 85 games of PvT in a row, so I want to do a couple games just for fun.
And for reference HBR is a bad map for this strat lol. I failed to realize how dumb dragoons can be about getting thru the choke....
1-1 with it now. Could have won the second game if the goons didn't freak out at that choke and go backwards.... not cool....
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EPT
