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On September 07 2019 07:08 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2019 06:49 JimmiC wrote:On September 06 2019 23:15 Danglars wrote:On September 05 2019 08:53 Sermokala wrote:On September 05 2019 08:21 KwarK wrote:On September 05 2019 06:36 Gorgonoth wrote:Why is Grumbels's post acceptable, calling for Trump supporters to be shunned and mocked and harassment of GOP supporters; but xDaunt's post which resulted in the ban is not? Was that ban based mostly on previous posts of xDaunt's that were deemed inflammatory and counter-productive to the conversation? The ban notice said: We no longer feel comfortable with a user who believes, 'These are people who need to be ridiculed, humiliated, and marginalized. It seems to me that both posts have the same sentiment, why is there not an equal reaction? There’s a difference between attacking someone for what they are and attacking someone for what they do. It’s not a double standard. "punitive social consequences" for everyone on the right doesn't trigger any red flags for you? That widespread punishment for peoples ideas and their beliefs Is A-okay to you as long as they aren't apart of an arbitrary pre-selected group? Anyone who doesn't think what grumbles posted is far past what xdaunt said really need to examine their bias. I think Grumbels knows he’s safe posting that, since it conforms to the default editorial bent of the moderation team. xDaunts comments weren’t due to anything the squad had said or done, they peered into his soul and detected racial animus. Other smears don’t deserve or receive such scrutiny, since blacklists and stuff in that vein are becoming more mainstream. what is your expectation of mods reaction when you post so passive aggressive like this? Do you think this is a good technique to get people to act how you would prefer or do you find it just makes them angry? I read it as a resignation to the status quo more so than having any imaginations of possible change as a result of the post. TeamLiquid has never been nor claimed to be a democracy - "it's our house," so Kwark can call people dumbasses and argue moderation based on his beliefs. Sometimes mods disagree on things and then they discuss. I doubt this is such a case, and I don't think Danglars believed it to be either. He's just voicing his opinion.
Could be it was to vent, but if so he should just do it. If he was hoping for some sort of change though, being passive aggressive will never work and if anything will just piss off the people he is hoping to see his perspective, or whatever his goal was. I was not sure so I asked.
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Look I've been busy this week and I hurt my hand. I really don't apreciate kwark getting so personal and hostile at me but hey I guess I just don't get his british wit this week.
Explain to me please what you think "punitive social consequences" means when it means "nothing like" ridicule marginalization and humiliation?
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United States35563 Posts
On September 07 2019 09:51 Sermokala wrote:
Look I've been busy this week and I hurt my hand. I really don't apreciate kwark getting so personal and hostile at me but hey I guess I just don't get his british wit this week.
Explain to me please what you think "punitive social consequences" means when it means "nothing like" ridicule marginalization and humiliation?
You put quote marks around nothing like and I'm not sure who you're quoting.
I think ridicule is a social consequence though. I'm confused again, what position are you disagreeing with here? Does someone have the position that ridicule is not a social consequence?
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Was the report flag cleared or is everyone complaining about a post that the mods probably never saw because it was never reported in the first place?
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On September 07 2019 10:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Was the report flag cleared or is everyone complaining about a post that the mods probably never saw because it was never reported in the first place?
I did report the post. I would appreciate a moderator explanation even if he isn’t warned so I can make sense of the moderation on this thread.
Not sure how long decisions usually take but it was a few days ago, so I think the verdict is no action.
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On September 07 2019 07:08 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2019 06:49 JimmiC wrote:On September 06 2019 23:15 Danglars wrote:On September 05 2019 08:53 Sermokala wrote:On September 05 2019 08:21 KwarK wrote:On September 05 2019 06:36 Gorgonoth wrote:Why is Grumbels's post acceptable, calling for Trump supporters to be shunned and mocked and harassment of GOP supporters; but xDaunt's post which resulted in the ban is not? Was that ban based mostly on previous posts of xDaunt's that were deemed inflammatory and counter-productive to the conversation? The ban notice said: We no longer feel comfortable with a user who believes, 'These are people who need to be ridiculed, humiliated, and marginalized. It seems to me that both posts have the same sentiment, why is there not an equal reaction? There’s a difference between attacking someone for what they are and attacking someone for what they do. It’s not a double standard. "punitive social consequences" for everyone on the right doesn't trigger any red flags for you? That widespread punishment for peoples ideas and their beliefs Is A-okay to you as long as they aren't apart of an arbitrary pre-selected group? Anyone who doesn't think what grumbles posted is far past what xdaunt said really need to examine their bias. I think Grumbels knows he’s safe posting that, since it conforms to the default editorial bent of the moderation team. xDaunts comments weren’t due to anything the squad had said or done, they peered into his soul and detected racial animus. Other smears don’t deserve or receive such scrutiny, since blacklists and stuff in that vein are becoming more mainstream. what is your expectation of mods reaction when you post so passive aggressive like this? Do you think this is a good technique to get people to act how you would prefer or do you find it just makes them angry? I read it as a resignation to the status quo more so than having any imaginations of possible change as a result of the post. TeamLiquid has never been nor claimed to be a democracy - "it's our house," so Kwark can call people dumbasses and argue moderation based on his beliefs. Sometimes mods disagree on things and then they discuss. I doubt this is such a case, and I don't think Danglars believed it to be either. He's just voicing his opinion.
I would be a big campaigner for change, if I saw more transparency in decision-making, and a recognition of the original problems. I have direct conversations with members of the mod team, and get responses such as "they will stand by whatever decision was [originally] made based on the report." The discussions are closeted; you just don't hear what shred of evidence swayed the jury that a rightwinger was duly banned for something they'd consider tamer from a left winger. It's just "I provided your PM to moderator chat" or "I don't condone KwarK's usage of Nazi accusations ... however" "We want to see what happens [to the thread after a specific tempban]."
So yeah, if the moderators (Kwark does not moderate this specific thread) want to come in and make a qualitative distinction on Grumbels post, based on the content of his posting, I'll have more to go on. I really doubt that xDaunt would be given grace had he said "politicians who hate America, like AOC, need to be shunned and mocked ... there should certainly be punitive social consequences" instead of "ridiculed, humiliated, and marginalized."
Or maybe if Grumbels said he wanted Trump supporters to be ridiculed, humiliated, and marginalized, that would be accepted. I hardly know. In case I have overlooked something meaningful, I'm still hoping that a moderator steps in and delineates the difference. If not because of my post, then because of Sermokala and Gorgonoth.
+ Show Spoiler +I'll put it another way for the moderators. Could Nettles or someone suggest Kamala Harris should be shunned, humiliated, and marginalized for her views ... or her monetary supporters tabulated in lists, shunned and mocked publicly, suffer punitive social consequences for her plans and goals? Assume he describes all the despair she'll inflict on vulnerable populations, her animosity towards various American groups, and the destruction of the health care system (or something comparable to the concentration camps and spoils for billionaires rant)
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probably the most appropriate place to say HBD GreenHorizons
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On September 08 2019 09:34 brian wrote:
probably the most appropriate place to say HBD GreenHorizons
Probably lol. Thanks 
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I'll throw out there that I supported the most recent ban. I'm not sure that the guy even knew the major points of his supposed ideology. It appeared like an attempt to troll rather then engage. I don't suspect that it will end up being very controversial of a ban, and I also wouldn't have been surprised based on content and post count if it was a PBU.
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On September 17 2019 01:58 JimmiC wrote:
I'll throw out there that I supported the most recent ban. I'm not sure that the guy even knew the major points of his supposed ideology. It appeared like an attempt to troll rather then engage. I don't suspect that it will end up being very controversial of a ban, and I also wouldn't have been surprised based on content and post count if it was a PBU.
I also thought he was PBU a month or two ago, but based on his posts in BW forum, he might not be. I tried to do some investigative work because he was... more coarse... than I'd expect from a genuine noob, so I found his reddit account. He had deleted it. However, he then made fefil2, fefil3, ... all the way until 10 or so? Maybe more, I forget. Anyway, I looked through his posts there and I immediately knew that he wouldn't last long on TL not only because of their apparent attitude, but because of their political beliefs. I don't think it's a troll, because it's consistent with their posting habits on reddit over a longer period of time.
Was an instant permanent ban the right call? Eh. There may have been more history behind the account than I am aware of. Either way, I'm not surprised at all that it was Kwark who banned him - and either way, I don't think he will be missed.
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On September 17 2019 01:58 JimmiC wrote:
Was an instant permanent ban the right call? Eh. There may have been more history behind the account than I am aware of. Either way, I'm not surprised at all that it was Kwark who banned him - and either way, I don't think he will be missed.
100% the right call. I don't think we should accept people spouting Nazi ideologies, whether they themselves understand it is or not. It's not ok, and attempting to create discussions out of it only serves to muddy the water.
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And also, when it comes to "whether they themselves understand it is or not"... they very rarely don't understand.
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In his own words "I will try my best to speak very clearly and concisely, keeping assertions to a minimum."
He knows what he is writing. We have all seen before. As Jockmcplop advised "don't be racist", he went on with what he thinks is an illuminating piece that none of us had seen before.
Xdaunt knew when to stop so he had plausible deniability, which was the main problem with him. Eventually Trump emboldened him enough with his tweets and speeches, as Trump emboldens all his ilk.
This other guy however just goes straight from preserving european culture to that we are not one human race.
Honestly speaking, it should had been instant banned, no conversation for legitimacy allowed for such a hateful poisonous ideology.
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What happened to the "defeat them in the marketplace of ideas" people? I'm not complaining, I'm just curious if they had a change of heart (what caused it?) or they just aren't around anymore?
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fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough
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I think it was the right call, he was on the path to perma so just pull off the bandaid fast. It was a pretty low post count account so he could always make another one and not be a troll and I'm sure happily exist. But it more likely he keeps coming back continually being banned again. Like if someone is asking questions about a taboo subject I think that is fine, but when they are stating unsourced racist "facts" there is no need to have them continue.
That being said after he was banned a interesting conversation was had by the rest so that was positive. And I think if he was still their it wouldn't have gone in that direction, people would have just kept getting angrier.
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On September 17 2019 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough
I mean, going "what do you mean I sound like a Nazi?" And not actually asking the question because they wanted an answer, and going "yeah okay bro" at a mod, when you're espousing Nazi ideology, is pretty fucked up. I wouldn't want any community to tolerate playing with that kind of fire. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi, maybe put in a little effort. Otherwise you're just a fucking Nazi, and we won't miss you.
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you still have a half-assed argument to argue with people like him; it's why they exist and perpetuate.
- black struggle was reactionary to white oppression = gist of your argument.
- now let's say that's fine, we accept it.
- here comes that dude, says his white dudes are getting extinct so he wants to protect them;
(in a different world that's not a shitty line of reasoning but in this world, he fucked it by accessorizing it with all kinds of "we(whites) are the best", "we are the smartest", then sprinkled in some: "and because of those(self-prescribed attributes), we deserve this and are entitled to that" and so on and so forth; anyway, we digress)
point is, you all jumped in him on the whiteness thing and what does it mean; how he defines it, what is he referring to, etcetc.
thing is you defined it for him, you admitted it exists(existed) in your initial argument, and that was enough for him to skip the whole "but what is whiteness!?!" tangent.
based on that, he could've continue explaining his plans for saving the whites, your whites.
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On September 18 2019 01:57 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough I mean, going "what do you mean I sound like a Nazi?" And not actually asking the question because they wanted an answer, and going "yeah okay bro" at a mod, when you're espousing Nazi ideology, is pretty fucked up. I wouldn't want any community to tolerate playing with that kind of fire. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi, maybe put in a little effort. Otherwise you're just a fucking Nazi, and we won't miss you.
then dont let him in the thread? or any part of the site where people would be exposed to his opinions?
this is still a site centered around gaming and the guy was here to mainly ask questions about bw, not debate about his opinions on the preservation of european genetics.
seems pretty harsh that hes kicked off a gaming site for talking about issues unrelated to gaming literally like one time and finding out his views are very different to others
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United States35563 Posts
On September 18 2019 04:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 01:57 NewSunshine wrote:On September 17 2019 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough I mean, going "what do you mean I sound like a Nazi?" And not actually asking the question because they wanted an answer, and going "yeah okay bro" at a mod, when you're espousing Nazi ideology, is pretty fucked up. I wouldn't want any community to tolerate playing with that kind of fire. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi, maybe put in a little effort. Otherwise you're just a fucking Nazi, and we won't miss you. then dont let him in the thread? or any part of the site where people would be exposed to his opinions? this is still a site centered around gaming and the guy was here to mainly ask questions about bw, not debate about his opinions on the preservation of european genetics. seems pretty harsh that hes kicked off a gaming site for talking about issues unrelated to gaming literally like one time and finding out his views are very different to others
Just one of the many aspects of prejudice and discrimination that Nazis deal with on a daily basis.
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