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Edited for clarity.
I've been prowling TL for a bit now and this is sad first post but I have to say it.
The quality of responses on the forum have degraded far past the point of respectability. Instead each thread valid or not is flooded with nonsense. In response I find myself unable to reply to any thread because it will get lost in the mess of useless, unfiltered comments. In my opinion the forum is ruined by hundreds of people sharing their less than intelligent opinions or worse the "I have that same problem" responses.
It's truly unfortunate to see Team Liquid's threads devolve into Youtube like comments where no one says anything of subsistence.
I find myself reading the OP and ignoring the 50 comments that follow, even if there are valid responses amongst the mass of uselessness, this is not a healthy forum.
I hope to make this into more than just a complaint but a warning. If the culture on the forum doesn't change I fear it will degrade further and further. True you'll still have a large community, but quality over quantity. Please.
Finally I understand this is more than a bit hypocritical as this adds little more than a warning to the forum. And if it's removed by a mod that's fine, at least that means someone read it, it needed to be said.
TL;DR
QQ
Ideas provided from the replies.
Rekul
How about if mods can highlight posts? And users can flag posts so that mods can highlight them. Add a filter button to toggle to show only them. Only needed if the thread gets past 5+ pages or something. Would be very useful in threads like LR and the NASL ones.
R3condite
How about thumbs up and thumbs down for helpfulness and relevance?
then the user could have the option of viewing only posts that are above the threshold?
ScarletKnight
1. More Moderators.
2. Harsher bans.
3. Zero tolerance.
Milkis - I took the liberty of breaking down what you said, hope that's okay.
Allow users with a "highlighted post" to highlight another post(s). This will allow for self monitoring, without the increase of mods(a challenge) and with out the difficult/impossible process of instating an upboat system.
-Potential System
1. Mods have unlimited highlights to give
2. Once given a highlight, the user then has a single highlight to give
3. Process continues forever, the number of highlighted posts will increase linearly, and the mods have the power to increase or decrease the amount of highlighted posts and the rate at which they are increasing(slope)
All great thoughts, thanks for sharing your ideas! I hope this thread continues to produce suggestions and hopefully work towards implementing some of them.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
moved to website feedback
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I don't think the General forum is that bad.
Only after the GSL finals when massive QQ ensues.
While I appreciate a good opening post with content I don't think that all topics need a 4 paragraph introduction. Just my 2 cents on this
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I think what you describe is a very hard problem for TL to combat. I think the current moderators do their best to maintain posting quality but the sheer volume of posts makes it a doomed venture. I really like the idea of TL being a haven of quality information but the simple fact is Starcraft 2 has made the site way too popular--not that I think that that's a bad thing. When it comes down to it I believe that the best you can do is lead by example and try to post in a meaningful manner. It is admittedly disappointing that many quality posts may go unnoticed and there may not be a good way to be heard above the din, so to speak, but I think TL is very aware of this problem.
There's still lots of high quality content all over the website but I get the feeling that content has been migrating away from the Strategy Forum and the SC2 General Forum. I'm glad I came to TL before the big SC2 boom but I still think it is the best SC site on the internet.
All in all, just lead by example and don't worry too much about the masses that you can't, and probably shouldn't, control.
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Zurich15355 Posts
I am sure everyone is aware of this issue. Do you have any suggestion how to fix it though?
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How about if mods can highlight posts? And users can flag posts so that mods can highlight them.
Add a filter button to toggle to show only them. Only needed if the thread gets past 5+ pages or something. Would be very useful in threads like LR and the NASL ones.
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Hyrule19152 Posts
On March 31 2011 14:48 zab329 wrote:
Edited for clarity.
I'm a Lurker, and I've never contributed before but I'm going to list off a bunch of problems.
Everyone is dumb.
TL is full of spamming 12 year olds.
I don't care about reading the first 3 pages of replies even if there's good ones in there because they are probably all bad anyway.
I just wanted to let you all know about what I think
MARTYR
TL;DR
QQ
Basically what I read. Instead of registering to post a bunch of whine, perhaps you should just start to contribute in a meaningful manner? Or maybe give some suggestions as how to resolve the situation.
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Already even in this thread buried in the depths of website feedback we have three prime examples of noncontributing replys and two good replys (imo)
1. Windsupernova, you "added your two cents" without adding anything.
2. ThePiper, you provided a well thought out response and disagreed, thank-you
3. Zatic, what did that contribute?
4. Rekul, good ideas and a good addition, expanding on the OP in an effort to better the community
5. Tofucake, How did you "contribute in a meaningful manner", or "offer solutions to resolve the situation". You didn't and this is the exact kind of post I am talking about. Furthermore, this is "website feedback" I gave my feedback and it has already started a valid discussion.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to point out the less than affective comments without being extremely hypocritical, I understand this didn't add anything to the OP just continue the QQ, but I hope this narrows in on the point I am trying to make.
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Hyrule19152 Posts
I contribute by moderating various stream chats, by writing news for and editing changes made to Liquipedia, reporting awful posts, and by clicking Preview and rereading what I wrote before I post. What do you do?
Your post was feedback the same way whining is (because you were whining). My reply to your post pointed out that it lacked suggestions. I then gave two ways you could improve the post and your life here on TL.
On April 01 2011 03:58 zab329 wrote:
Already even in this thread buried in the depths of website feedback we have three prime examples of noncontributing replys and two good replys (imo)
[snip]
5. Tofucake, How did you "contribute in a meaningful manner", or "offer solutions to resolve the situation". You didn't and this is the exact kind of post I am talking about. Furthermore, this is "website feedback" I gave my feedback and it has already started a valid discussion.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to point out the less than affective comments without being extremely hypocritical, I understand this didn't add anything to the OP just continue the QQ, but I hope this narrows in on the point I am trying to make.
replies*
tofucake*
effective*
There's some constructive feedback.
Should I also point out my two suggestions again? Or were they just QQ?
From what I have gleaned from the 2 of your posts I've read, you approach every thread and reply with a negative attitude. If you had read my post in a positive light, you would probably have clearly noticed my suggestions were not meant to deride you or be useless at all. In fact, you could expand (with a minimal amount of effort) the suggestion to beef up your post a bit. So there's 3 suggestions.
[edit]
The fact that two people asked you for suggestions on how to resolve the situation (which we are all aware of, by the way, which you would have noticed if you'd used the Search before posting) should possibly have clued you in to the fact that your post was actually completely useless. And instead of one of those people (zatic btw, the Red guy, which means he's one of the guys that runs things around here) asks for a suggestion instead of just locking the thread, it should clue you in to the fact that the staff (again, second clue here) is aware of the problem and has not found a way to solve it, and that your post is (again...) completely useless.
PS, feel free to read this post in a negative light, since now you've annoyed me and I am being hostile.
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On March 31 2011 14:48 zab329 wrote:
I find myself reading the OP and ignoring the 50 comments that follow, even if there are valid responses amongst the mass of uselessness, this is not a healthy forum.
This is the culprit behind the problem. Personally, I read every post in every thread I respond to, whether I'm the first responder or the thread is 80 pages long. (LR threads and such excluded of course) These problems crop up when people just give up, and start posting with your attitude, and I think the only solution is for everyone to do their part and try to clean up their posting, and imo that begins with putting in the time to reading before posting. Sure, sometimes that means you have something to say, but can't, whether it's because the discussion has moved on, or you don't have the time/want to read through all the posts in the thread so far, but don't you think it's arrogant to think that your opinion deserves to be heard when you won't give others the chance to be heard as well?
Ultimately, I think it's going to be nigh-impossible to enforce or moderate quality into posts, but I like to think that slowly, the combination of bans culling the fat with everyone doing their own best can only improve TL's quality in the long run.
Finally I understand this is more than a bit hypocritical as this adds little more than a warning to the forum. And if it's removed by a mod that's fine, at least that means someone read it, it needed to be said.
TL;DR
QQ
btw, stuff like this is exactly the trash that should be culled. =/
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Hyrule19152 Posts
elmizzt, he's not going to be reading any of this since we're still on the first page. I suggest we just spam random nonsense for 3 pages and then post our real responses.
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On April 01 2011 03:58 zab329 wrote:
3. Zatic, what did that contribute?
he asked you what solutions you recommend. A problem is only a problem if you have a solution. Otherwise it's just something that is. Personally, I don't have a solution short of stricter moderation via an extended moderating team (which TL is already moving towards with introduction of banlings and so on), hence I don't make threads about it.
So, what solutions do you recommend?
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You got any examples?
A lot of people seem to complain about this but 1. have no solutions, 2. never post examples of what they deem as "unacceptable".
Problem is your problem is that these things are very easily distinguished and in most cases, entirely valid, just not up to the standards of one person (but is to another).
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Zurich15355 Posts
Again, everyone is aware of this and it has been pointed out several times already. I invite you to suggest improvements we as staff of the site can implement, which is what the Website Forum here is mainly about. Other than that it's entirely in the hands of every user on this site including you to make this forum a better place.
If you are only here to point out the obvious you are just part of the problem.
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how about thumbs up and thumbs down for helpfulness and relevance?
then the user could have the option of viewing only posts that are above the threshold?
not sure if that's too much like digg
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Again the goal of the post was to give feedback and start a discussion. It has been derailed into something else entirely so in an attempt to right the ship I'm going to ignore the bashing and take the good ideas this thread has invoked and edit the OP with them. #highroad
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On April 04 2011 08:20 zab329 wrote:
Again the goal of the post was to give feedback and start a discussion. It has been derailed into something else entirely so in an attempt to right the ship I'm going to ignore the bashing and take the good ideas this thread has invoked and edit the OP with them. #highroad
I don't see any bashing, at least none that isn't justified or analytically supported.
Bottom line is, everyone can talk about it, but so far, there are no solutions and this feedback thus becomes relatively useless because there is no way to fix or acknowledge it with actions.
P.S: the suggestions made have been suggested a million times before.
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On April 01 2011 05:25 elmizzt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 14:48 zab329 wrote:
I find myself reading the OP and ignoring the 50 comments that follow, even if there are valid responses amongst the mass of uselessness, this is not a healthy forum. This is the culprit behind the problem. Personally, I read every post in every thread I respond to, whether I'm the first responder or the thread is 80 pages long.
Personally I would love the ability to agree with something some wrote in a thread without having to quote them. I know the up/down thing has been raised many times and I am aware of the opportunity for abuse. I'm not sure how to support an argurment/point without quoting or simply parroting what has been said.
Thoughts on a solution:
Perhaps instead of up/down, have an agree check box that you can only be accessed once per post. For example Person A says he is awesome, I agree so I click it, but I can only agree once. It removes the opportunity for negative feedback by asking forum members to promote positive posting. I know this may lead to cliques etc but I'm not sure what else to suggest.
Oh well thanks for reading 
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When I first came here back in August this site was a bit of a revelation to me during the beta. It was the most informed, mannered, best web forum/site that I had ever been to, mainly due to the community that it associated with.
Since the release of SC2 however, it seems like the site has been degrading in quality posts day by day. Nowhere is this more apparent than LR threads, and the Strat forum. That seems to be where most of the trolls/bad posters seem to congregate and where bans a plenty are handed out. But it looks to be bleeding into other areas of the site now and even in General and the Brood War sections are starting to feel the hurt. A lot of poor quality posts come from people who have not been here too long (not unlike myself, I'm relatively new around here compared with some people).
I myself though have never been banned or even received a warning for anything I have ever posted on this site. I feel like it's pretty easy to be okay here and not get yourself warned/banned. It's almost puzzling to me to see how many bad posters/trolls inhabit here and I wonder whether they act out of sheer ignorance or potential malice.
The most disheartening thing is to see posters like this get away with what they're doing, and there's little to nothing I can do about it. That being said I have a few suggestions as to what can be done:
1. More Moderators.
- This one is a bit self-explanitory, but I'll extrapolate anyway. More mods = More eyes watching the forum. It seems like with the explosion in the popularity of TL that the amount of mods has not really been increased as well. It's a simple supply demand sort of thing, where as the greater amount of posters should be adequately attended to by the implementation of more mods. A lot of times I see people saying "Well the mods can't be everywhere at once, there's only so many" etc, well then why not increase your numbers?
Find select members here that are willing to receive the responsibility and add them to the mod list. A literal larger physical presence in mod staff could help out immensely as you will have more eyes and more ban hammers.
2. Harsher bans.
- This is my own personal opinion, but 2 day bans don't seem to curtail poor posting. Make bans longer (1 week minimum maybe?) and I think people will be more wary of what they post.
Possibly implement a 3 strike rule of some sort. 3 warns = 1 Week ban. Post 1st ban, each ban gets considerably longer, make the 3rd ban a perm. Zero tolerance.
This may seem a bit harsh, but possibly necessary.
3. Zero tolerance.
Speaking of zero tolerance, zatic I believe got this ball rolling in the strat forum. Something like this could be implemented throughout the SC2 section and possibly site-wide.
All of these things seem harsh, but sometimes you gotta slam down that iron fist and say enough is enough.
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tofucake is the man
User was warned for this post
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EPT
