EPTStaff Advertising Problem - Page 2
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tofucake
Hyrule19090 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27152 Posts
The issue here is surrounding a policy. Should staff who have an automatic respect and to degree trust from user base be allowed to use that influence to make money off it. The respect came before the staff position. Not because of it. One cannot become staff without it. This directly reflects on TL as one of its opinions. By association this becomes not just a Inc venture but a TL basically endorsed one. IF things go great, awesome. If it goes badly it reflects badly on TL. Second, I think it is apparent with the location of the thread (in blogs) and the preface to the thread, that it is not affiliated with TeamLiquid. It is not endorsed by TeamLiquid. The success or failure of the venture lies solely on Inc's shoulders. If he were to do poorly, or abuse the user base in any way, both his business and his position on TL would be in jeopardy. I have no problem seeing the distinction between his two roles. Because he is a veteran and has proved to be reliable in the past, the thread is allowed. If you started a cooking show, or a chef mentoring program, your thread would be allowed too. You have earned it. By using the word "solicitation" you make it sound like Inc is asking for money for nothing. The blog advertises a service he provides, nothing more. It is no different from the other people who have projects and use TL to make them known. Day[9] is on the calendar everyday and has a long running thread in the main part of the SC2 section, and he is staff. That show makes him a lot of money. TL is not at the point it was a few years ago where moderators were just forum veterans that were trusted to take out the trash. Many people are making a living off of the scene of SC2. It is up to the admin staff to evaluate these instances on a case by case basis to make sure they are reasonable and legitimate. As hot_bid mentioned, we are also in the process of configuring the site to better handle the influx of new business and business motives on the site. TL was never designed for that so it has taken some thought and time. I think when we roll it out it will solve some of these issues that people have. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On October 02 2010 06:53 tofucake wrote: Every new news article has a space up top with an ad banner. Views = money, clicks = money. So yes, TL makes money off of every single page view and ad click. the ad is actually at the top of the forum at all times unless you have ad blocker on. If your not looking at a thread its there. But I see where your trying to go with that. That cash goes to things like, server fees. Unless things have changed drastically, that isn't going into their pockets, whereas in this case I am arguing it is going into someones pocket. | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27152 Posts
On October 02 2010 06:44 BloodyC0bbler wrote: No he is instead using his name + title (his banling title auto is part of his name hence part of it) and saying "hai gimme money". That is not a fair evaluation of the situation. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On October 02 2010 06:50 tofucake wrote: Okay. Then from now on TL can only use 1 post for news and it has to be bumped/updated/renamed every time a new article is released. You are totally missing the point and that is a retarded metaphor. There is personal incentive for incontrol to post NEW blogs and anything relating to gosucoaching, hell there is incentive to even just post considering his signature. The goal being to advertise his site and get more money. I'd even be fine if he actually rented ad space on the top of teamliquid, the fact hes actually making threads and getting free advertisement is complete bullshit. Every news post that is made is a direct result of selfless work done by staff writers to create content for the good of everyone, not the good of themselves. It has to do with the users motivation in doing something. In incontrol's case its completely self interest in promoting his site and anyone else would of gotten banned and threads closed for doing it. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
On October 02 2010 06:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote: -_- really? read #1 specifically We are not a "for profit" enterprise. He is a mod doing a for profit enterprise, as a mod it would to a new member feel like it was part of TL or supported by it or endorsed by it. Making it a for profit enterprise. Let me clarify a few things. We have since added a disclaimer to Incontrol's thread. I think that resolves any issue of it being officially endorsed by TL. As for new users reading the disclaimer and still thinking "well Inc is banling, I trust him more" that is largely reflection of his reputation in the community, and that is not gained solely from us giving him a red hammer. First, You seem to feel that "making monetary gain off the forum community" is something wrong. He's offering a service in exchange for money. It is not him asking for donations or TL forcing users to pay to read posts. It's a quid pro quo exchange where users can decide whether to pay for the service or not. As mentioned above, since we clarified that it was not officially endorsed by TeamLiquid, this should resolve any problems of "TL making money off its community." Second, TL already makes money off its community, through website ads and shirts and tournaments like the TSL. We don't hide this, nor do we think anything is wrong. Even if we did officially endorse Inc's coaching as a TL service, I would see nothing wrong with it. You seem to associate some sort of stigma, but I see no exploitation of our users here. We've always prioritized our users comfort and wishes over any sort of money making, and refused any profitable opportunities that may be too intrusive or inconvenient for our userbase. As we've said before, TL's #1 asset is it's credibility with the Starcraft community and there's no way we'd throw that away. Lastly, you seem to be confusing the definitions of for-profit and non-profit. A non-profit site does not mean we make no money. It means we do not exist solely to generate money for our owners and shareholders. TL makes money, but we reinvest all of it into the site and community an in effort to expand it. Even charities often have large payrolls, this enables them to collect more money and further their cause. I'm not comparing TL to the Red Cross or something, but we use all our excess funds for the benefit of our userbase and the Starcraft community in general. I believe that qualifies us as non-profit site. Thus, I do not feel it is correct for you to simply state "if you make a profit you are a for-profit enterprise" because that's not true. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
My only real issue I would like to point out, is the preface was added after the fact not before hand (as this would not have really been an issue had it been there originally). But overall, you have have made TL's position clear on the matter. | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19090 Posts
You realize the arguments against inc's post are getting more ridiculous? | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On October 02 2010 06:55 Manifesto7 wrote: That is not a fair evaluation of the situation. I would disagree partly because every post he makes indirectly advertises both his sites. Indirectly advertising is still advertising. Advertising is done to draw people towards things. He advertises people to a service he makes money off of. It is very similar. | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19090 Posts
On October 02 2010 07:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote: I would disagree partly because every post he makes indirectly advertises both his sites. Indirectly advertising is still advertising. Advertising is done to draw people towards things. He advertises people to a service he makes money off of. It is very similar. Way to completely ignore the rest of his post. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On October 02 2010 06:55 Manifesto7 wrote: That is not a fair evaluation of the situation. I think its an accurate portrayal of the situation. Incontrol just uses more words. He is using his status on TL in order to make profit for himself by abusing things that with any other user wouldn't slide. I find it really insulting to anyone who selflessly and continues to selflessly but effort into creating content or doing things for the community. When you mention Day[9] hes not charging for his service at all and not shamelessly advertising it. He was never abusing his status in order to fulfill a monetary incentive. | ||
micronesia
United States24701 Posts
The question becomes whether or not it will be necessary for a disclaimer to be placed at the beginning of every thread of this nature made by TL staff in the future. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On October 02 2010 07:04 micronesia wrote: Guys don't listen to Hot_Bid. The banling induction ceremony at the Manhattan Marriott was paid for in full by Teamliquid funds and must have run us at least 50k. The question becomes whether or not it will be necessary for a disclaimer to be placed at the beginning of every thread of this nature made by TL staff in the future. I think simply by allowing it on the website makes it an affiliate. Considering how this opportunity is not open to everyone it is showing a personal preference (hence support) of one individual over another. | ||
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micronesia
United States24701 Posts
On October 02 2010 07:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think simply by allowing it on the website makes it an affiliate. Considering how this opportunity is not open to everyone it is showing a personal preference (hence support) of one individual over another. Inc received no special consideration due to being a banling. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
On October 02 2010 07:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote: I would disagree partly because every post he makes indirectly advertises both his sites. Indirectly advertising is still advertising. Advertising is done to draw people towards things. He advertises people to a service he makes money off of. It is very similar. I feel you are exaggerating. "Every post he makes" is certainly not an accurate portrayal of the situation. We will monitor it closely and ensure that there is no exploitation of our userbase occuring. However, "hai gimme money" is not even close to a money-for-service enterprise. That is what Manifesto was talking about. On October 02 2010 07:01 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think its an accurate portrayal of the situation. Incontrol just uses more words. He is using his status on TL in order to make profit for himself by abusing things that with any other user wouldn't slide. I find it really insulting to anyone who selflessly and continues to selflessly but effort into creating content or doing things for the community. When you mention Day[9] hes not charging for his service at all and not shamelessly advertising it. He was never abusing his status in order to fulfill a monetary incentive. If Incontrol was not a banling, he would still not be "any other user." He earned that status through his reputation in the community in the first place. We have since placed the disclaimer and removed any link between Inc's coaching and an official TL endorsement, thus this venture by him should succeed or fail based on Incontrol's merits only, not by his position on TL staff. It is interesting you call this "abuse" when again, it's a user deciding to pay for a service. Would you consider it abuse for a user to pay for a TL shirt? Would you consider Day[9] "abusing" our userbase since his dailies get advertising revenue from wherever he streams it from, and his popularity gains him many paid positions at tournaments? I see nothing wrong with any of these arrangements. Your perception of what is abuse and what is "selfless effort" is skewed. On some level, all of us (Day, Inc, TL) make sacrifices to do what we love. All three entities make money in some way. You trying to fit each one into a separate black-or-white greed-or-selfless box is not an accurate assessment of the situation at all. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On October 02 2010 07:09 micronesia wrote: Inc received no special consideration due to being a banling. Why is he receiving special consideration for anything though? | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27152 Posts
On October 02 2010 06:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Thank you for the reply and although I may personally disagree with part of it I appreciate the response. My only real issue I would like to point out, is the preface was added after the fact not before hand (as this would not have really been an issue had it been there originally). But overall, you have have made TL's position clear on the matter. Just to note, when I woke up this morning the disclaimer was already there. I assumed he had written it, and without it I can see it looking worse. It should have been included in the original OP by inc himself. On October 02 2010 07:00 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think its an accurate portrayal of the situation. Incontrol just uses more words. He is using his status on TL in order to make profit for himself by abusing things that with any other user wouldn't slide. Please show me where he asks for money. If you think all advertising boils down to "gimmie money" with more words, then you are grossly oversimplifying things. I also don't think there is any abuse in making a blog about something you do outside TL. Other users? Kore had his thread here for months, Susie sold merch, JP has a thread about his off-site podcasts, the list goes on and on. Quite frankly, you are up in arms because you don't like inc the person, imo. I find it really insulting to anyone who selflessly and continues to selflessly but effort into creating content or doing things for the community. I put in hours a day into this community for absolutely nothing. I am not insulted. When you mention Day[9] hes not charging for his service at all and not shamelessly advertising it. He was never abusing his status in order to fulfill a monetary incentive. Day has used TL as a platform to build a highly successful online television show, and has parlayed that into commentating gigs all over the world. It is his full time job. I don't begrudge him for an instant and I think his success is wonderful. But if you don't think he used TL to talk about his SC2 release party, and other events, then you aren't paying attention. He brings valuable content to TL, and it is valuable for him as well. As Hot_Bid said, protecting our users, and maintaining the faith of our community is our number one objective. If we felt this was abusive, we wouldn't allow it. If it becomes abusive, we won't allow it in the future. You are just going to have to trust our judgement on this one. | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27152 Posts
On October 02 2010 07:14 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why is he receiving special consideration for anything though? Because he contributes to the community in a positive way. People who do that get special consideration. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On October 02 2010 07:09 Hot_Bid wrote: I feel you are exaggerating. "Every post he makes" is certainly not an accurate portrayal of the situation. We will monitor it closely and ensure that there is no exploitation of our userbase occuring. However, "hai gimme money" is not even close to a money-for-service enterprise. That is what Manifesto was talking about. If Incontrol was not a banling, he would still not be "any other user." He earned that status through his reputation in the community in the first place. We have since placed the disclaimer and removed any link between Inc's coaching and an official TL endorsement, thus this venture by him should succeed or fail based on Incontrol's merits only, not by his position on TL staff. It is interesting you call this "abuse" when again, it's a user deciding to pay for a service. Would you consider it abuse for a user to pay for a TL shirt? Would you consider Day[9] "abusing" our userbase since his dailies get advertising revenue from wherever he streams it from, and his popularity gains him many paid positions at tournaments? I see nothing wrong with any of these arrangements. Your perception of what is abuse and what is "selfless effort" is skewed. On some level, all of us (Day, Inc, TL) make sacrifices to do what we love. All three entities make money in some way. You trying to fit each one into a separate black-or-white greed-or-selfless box is not an accurate assessment of the situation at all. Once again this has to do with shameless advertisement. I don't see teamliquid spamming its "WE SELL SHIRTS" all over the website, on top of that as you have pointed out previously that money ALL goes towards the website maintenance and is reinvested in the site for tournaments and competitions. As for Day9 he is also not spamming the site in an attempt to exploit the user base. Day9 gains money from advertisers NOT individuals. There is much less of an incentive for him to spam the site with advertisements which he doesn't do. On top of that his service started out being for the community completely selfless and without changing anything about his service he managed to make a small profit off of it. Incontrol and gosucoaching aims for purely personal profit and was started just to make profit for himself. I am sure he could careless about how it helps the community and cares more so about being able to profit off of it. The reason BC said every post is an advertisement is because of his signature. I am simply saying I don't think its right that incontrol can freely advertise something on TL that is simply absolute profit for himself. I don't believe I view this in a completely black or white manner, it has to do with the level of promotion an individual is allowed to get away with on the site. Comparing incontrol to TL selling shirts has no merit whatsoever however with Day9 you have a point, but when you look at the original intentions of each "service" you can see the difference in reasons for starting it and when you look at how each one advertises itself you can see the difference as well. In regards to deciding which one is okay and which one isn't you can't necessarily look at their intentions for why they started it but how they maintain it. Incontrol's signature is on the fine line, while making semi frequent blogs about it is clearly crossing it. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Show me shameless spamming. He's made 1 thread for Coaching, 1 for the Camp and then the tournament stuff. In fact, he hadn't mentioned it for a month and before then, he was only responding to other people talking about it. EDIT: I already know you're going to paste 4-5 threads about him coaching BW in 2009. | ||
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