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I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army.
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On September 11 2010 13:56 XXXSmOke wrote: I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army.
Because +2 effects tanks and thors?
Burrowing drones isn't too safe against hellions, because they do splash damage. If you happen to be burrowed in the line of a hellion flame thrower, you still get roasted
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I thought about some counters. The build relies on your opponent not doing anything remotely cheesy, due to the late barracks. Kinda makes an early pool, like 9, be quite effective. Even a quick all-in baneling bust with speedlings could do wonders. It takes 3 shots to kill lings that early, and with speed, they can easily keep up and surround hellions no problem. Especially when there's only a few of them out.
I think the 5RR might've worked too. All he has to defend is 1 or 2 marines/hellions. Either go for the scvs or try to kill them.
If you're planning to defend it, maybe some sim city to block off the paths behind the minerals would help. You're making evo chambers and stuff anyway. A well placed spine crawler or 2 with speedling traps on creep might work. You can use queens to help block too.
Example, at the natural on XNC, he could've blocked off the left side with evo chambers, spine crawlers and/or roaches. And just wall the main highway with a few roaches and queens. Way more cost effective than losing mining time + drones.
If I knew my opponent was investing heavily into hellions and mech, I'd invest into spine crawlers and other buildings to block paths with. Sure as hell beats losing drones and mining time.
Mech is very immobile. I would've loved to see some nydus worms and baneling bombs on the mineral line. Just like PvT in BW, they did zealot bombs. I see no reason why it's not used here, thor's anti-air isn't that great against a few overlords dropping (bane)lings onto your tanks. OLs are armored too, so thors do less damage against them and they have more hp than mutas. Although it is a bit of an investment, like 450/450 to get speed and sacs. But that's a lot of friggin transports you get for that much.
I'd suggest baneling bombing hellions, but they move too fast. And after the 1st try, they'd be running away from every overlord they see.
Anyway, just throwing it out there. Mech is very immobile, that's the key to that strategy. As long as you can keep the hellions in check, expand, use nydus worms, overlord drops, etc. Takes a lot of APM, but that's the potential zerg has for mechanical players.
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where can I watch this without paying?
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Ok, question about that rep, based perhaps on my lack of experience but: Why didn't the zerg switch to heavy muta soon as and magic box the shiz out of TLO?
He didn't have the critical thor mass that makes muta unviable, and was totally unprepared for heavy air harass...I think?
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mutas might have helped but i think he was just a little over commited to go muta.
the other thing about mutas is that they can be really really fragile in a big battle. they either totally pwn or get totally annihilated.
sure they can magic box around thors, but marines still rape them pretty bad. you gotta micro your bane into his marines... but he has lots of marauder soooo.... it kinda comes down to a micro battle and do you really wanna go that route against TLO? ^^ seriously lol.
edit after watching the game a second time i realized that tlo had no marines and basically forced the zerg into committing to roaches in able to get his mechanical death ball rolling. i think a tech switch to muta around the time zerg established his third. at this point tlo was already extremely committed to tanks and hellions and had only 3 thors to fight off air. id say a quick 10 muta or so could have ended the game right there.
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there's nothing new about this strat. hellion harass opening is almost the exact same as rauder, except it leads to a mech midgame..
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Mutas cost way too much gas. Especially that late into the game when he's invested so much into roaches. With 4 geysers, you're only getting enough gas for about 4.5 mutas every minute. Assuming you don't spend the gas on anything else.
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he needed to prioritise picking off tanks instead of thors when he was trading armies to slow down TLO's push out to the gold expo, and to help stall until brood lords. could have went for a faster hive imo, game was more or less over by time the brood lords popped. then add some corruptor maybe to kill vikings
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we have seen TLO go mech, and bio as a follow up to his fast hellion play but i believe a fast banshee is also possible
gretorp uses a gas first build to get a fast banshee in TvT (build up until first hellion is identical i believe)
this could also be another option after the hellions and strong if the opponent goes mass roach to counter w/o a fast lair (expansion comes after first banshee)
if the banshee option or extension is viable this seems like a very deadly build
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On September 11 2010 07:55 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:53 avilo wrote: newsflash: just because TLO did it does not mean it's new. Sounds like a solid/common strat though. Agree with this. Common TvZ opening, excellently executed by one of my favorite players, TLO.
I don't think it's common at all to get that many hellions and use them to attack EVERYTHING not just workers and lings. That's why TLO gets the armory upgrades instead of the blue flame so that way the mass hellions can be strong against whatever the zerg throws at him. TLO was using a lot more hellions than I've ever seen used before and using them in ways I haven't seen. Seems new to me.
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On September 11 2010 13:56 XXXSmOke wrote: I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army.
+2 will make thors 2 shot muta instead of 3 aswell
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The counter to this build is the double evo chamber rush.
EDIT: other thoughts
You can have banelings autoburrow. It's not perfect, but it CAN work.
TLO puts up early sensor towers and missile turrets so roach burrow and drops aren't really viable as harass strategies. Also note that TLO opted for 3 orbital commands for extra scans instead of getting the raven.
There were many points when the zerg threw away roaches. I understand he was trying to trade supply, but I think had he kept his roaches numbers up when the broodlords finally made it to the scene and attacked in conjunction, he could have had a chance. Even though the vikings could have cleared out the broodlords eventually, TLO's ground army might have been significantly depleted.
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I wonder if I can get my fast Orbital->Factory build to do this. Should get you to the same place with ~1 SCV less income.
I need access to the VODs though because I did not see the game .
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It is just a really strong strategy and Koreans don't (or didn't) really know it. So i'm suprised how good it was defended by the Zerg... he actually played so good that he should have won. Guess he should've made the switch to Ultras... didn't expect the push to be that strong i think ^^
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On September 12 2010 02:46 Melt wrote: It is just a really strong strategy and Koreans don't (or didn't) really know it.
I think his opponent did know it--at least well enough to cancel his original plan (canceled a drone to get a faster pool, and eventually faster roach den) to adopt the plan that worked out for him. I think he lost because he made a few costly mistakes, and overall TLO actually played very safe and very well.
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On September 11 2010 19:25 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 13:56 XXXSmOke wrote: I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army. +2 will make thors 2 shot muta instead of 3 aswell
No shit, now thats a powerful timing attack.
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On September 11 2010 09:05 kataa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 08:01 Zips wrote: So how do you counter this build, anyways?
In the commentary, tastetosis mentioned that he trained for this match with Idra, and idra said "his best chances for beating this seems to be roaches."
But as Idra has also said "there is no safe build against terran" even if you've got a chance of winning with that, it's just a chance. I think to lose with that build you'd have be severely out played by your opponant, but when that guy is TLO that's really living on a prayer. Is roach probably the best solution? yeah, but you're still going to lose most of the time anyways due to this builds awesomeness, and the total lack of diverse reponses zerg can provide, allows other races to tailor their builds perfectly to these limited options. Something which is going to sting alot more as time progresses.
There is no safe build in Starcraft, which is exactly why we love it so much. And who the hell listens to what Idra says? He may be very skilled and blah di blah, but his head gets in the way, way, wayy too much. Even noticed how TLO never rages when he plays Zerg and just plays the game?
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25 gas/roach isnt a huge deal mutas are still very achievable and really wouldve hurt this strat
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