EPTOn August 18 2010 23:12 citi.zen wrote:
So, did Ace have a hidden ability?
So, did Ace have a hidden ability?
Of course not
Penalty Mafia - Page 42
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Of course not | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
I looked at my role and literally said lol ok this won't be good if I ever use it unless we have some kind of role that's overpowered for the town, this is where my "there has to be some kind of overpowered town role" came into effect. From this I started thinking about a neutral game of town/dt/medic/vigilante vs scum (with a roleblocker). Of course I have no idea there are just 3 straight scum but that didn't change the outcome: I had a 0-0 meaning neutral in terms of town-scum strength. When I thought about my role I was assuming I had to be a weak doctor, meaning if I protected any anti-town player I would die that night which is what I was trying to explain to the town Day 1 about possibly having a broken role. This is why I said it could be very good or very bad. I put myself as -1 for the town side, meaning using my powers is a loss for the town more than a gain. As soon as I saw bumatlarge's penalty I actually added -2 for him (probably even -3 was more accurate) because his penalty was super bad. In fact I almost thought he might have been scum because that was kind of out there. This had the town score at -3-0 and I already was set firm in the idea something had to give on the town side to even it up. When zeks claimed it was either a +1 for the town or -1/0 for the town. That's why I asked zeks if his penalty of someone getting a permanent +1 vote on his wagon said it went to someone or town. This was super important because if it said town zeks getting lynched would automatically confirm a townie because the next day they could vote and you'd see +2 votes on the tally. Once he admitted it said person I went v_v because that means a townie or scum on the wagon could get the vote, which means no confirmed townie which is a +1 for us. It didn't so I had put a -1 down bringing us to -4. The only way it would be a 0 is if a townie did indeed get the +1 vote. However if bumatlarge was legit AND actually stumped, and zeks got lynched and the mafia got the vote that was automatically gg. At this point I was pretty certain the town had to have some kind of epic murder role: A vigilante with an ability to kill more than one scum, a detective that could get multiple scum, or me being a weak doc that could confirm pro-town players by protecting them and not dying at night. This brought me to an interesting dilemma because I REALLY didn't want to use my powers. I was debating hard whether to gamble protecting someone and revealing the protection (leading to my death) or not doing it and letting the scum not know a medic would probably protect me. I pm'd Hessmyr too late anyway when I finally decided that I should act on my hunch of being a Weak Doc though. But back to how Day 1 played out - this was a classic case of people thinking I'm scummy because of some hidden idea I want their roles. I had already shown that essentially everyone has a role - there is no "blue" role. I just wanted everyone to claim penalties so you could HOLD everyone to their penalties and kill off the liars asap. This was a huge argument which was only surprising because I never thought of Pyrr as someone who would misread what I was saying so many times in a row and jump to conclusions. Along with him trying to find out Bill Murray's penalty early in the day, and then rejecting a mass penalty claim I just didn't think he was being legit. I actually thought he was better than that so I figured no way a pro-town Pyrr could be this ridiculous. LSB was doing the same thing as Pyrr but being even more ridiculously scared of a penalty claim. citizen was being citizen which means any game I'm in he argues about any plan I propose. I think this is the third time we've both been pro-town and he's argued about a plan I made up. Of course this didn't really set off my scumdar at all. At the end of Day 1 before the lynch my suspect list was like this: Pyrr (definite scum) Bill Murray(definite scum) LSB(highly possible) ----------- everyone else I didn't bother to read too much into yet. The only thing about Day 2 that shocked me is that nobody went back to the lynch Bill Murray train. Really what the hell happened here? This is probably the first really big town mistake that happened during the game. The second was Bill Murray claiming he was a vigilante and not shooting the first night he got a chance - that should have been the kicker right there if anyone had doubts. Of course chaoser missed his chance to shoot BM Day 2 but that doesn't explain why no one made a grand effort to right the ship and go back to Day 1. But scum deserve lots of credit for managing to not only get Bill Murray to survive after being caught lying TWICE but also just watching town kill ourselves. Even at the end of the game I had no idea that Scamp was scum because trying to figure out what the hell was going on with the votes was too confusing. Add in the fact that I couldn't even believe some of the penalties I just figured someone with a crazy penalty had to be lying. Turns out Scamp's penalty of having limited votes,which isn't even that bad at all and was one of the most harmless penalties was a fake claim. Maybe thinking against the grain was the only way to win this game. EDIT: @Hessmyrr - How was the town going to clear anyone? Between a detective that has to wait 2 days before checks, a second detective who is a gimp that relies on the first detective dying (the semi-useful one)and a medic that has to telegraph protections how is the town confirming anything? By the time Pyrr gets a check we're on DAY 3 and EVEN then he has to be right about his check. Assuming he's even right and all the usual chaos of believing him as a detective comes out and he gets the right lynch he's going to die the next night. This is also assuming I haven't been killed yet either. Pretty much you need both the medic and the DT to survive to get just the DT confirmed and then you have to pray the DT is right AND you have to hope he survives the night. That is a lot to ask for. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
I must be missing some possibilities here... | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
Post game mod notes Bill Murray is definitely Mafia MVP. He turned what could have been terrible blow to mafia, scum lynched d1, and managed to survive far longer than he should by taking refugee in risky self-made claims that literally polarized the town in half (quite an accomplishment since it would mean the Townies in opposing sides would go after each other while other two mafia member I think took somewhat an neutral position). His decision to kill Ace night one saved the town from having a comeback as the chance of Ace, chaoser, youngminii, and bumatlarge being placed on "Confirmed/Likely Confirmed" list on the subsequent day was highly like had he not done so. Of course everyone's meta perception of BM as bad player and strong hand of luck - Pyrrhuloxia/Ace conflict and chaoser going afk - played critical part, but I suppose the end justifies the means. I award thee Best Serpentine Trophy! ![[image loading]](http://game.chosun.com/dataroom/article/2006/06/21/2006062100001410621star.jpg) chaoser made two critical mistakes that harmed the town, I think. One - forgetting to vote Bill Murray day two - was simply an matter of bad luck (albeit preventable) but I am curious if chaoser seriously contemplated roleclaiming day three instead of voting Bill Murray. I was of opinion that just roleclaiming then would have helped immensely. Following the plan, the town ended up in lylo 4-2 position. However I hypothesize that should chaoser have claimed before the day ended, vote BM, and persuade town to lynch someone else, it might have been much better. First because of the way BM pushed on Korynne most would be persuaded of her innocence, and secondly voting for someone else rather than Korynne (which chaoser must have known was inno since BM was fakeclaiming) would have given a chance opportunity to lynch mafia instead of wasting mislynch and bringing the town down to lylo. Then scum has to kill choaser since he is going to shoot Bill Murray, and the chaoser flip should be enough to get him lynched the next day. LSB played pretty well, made decent posts and was active, though I am bit curious why he did not reveal his town investigation in bumatlarge when he got it. I don't think there was reason to conceal it since he had essentially lost his ability anyway, so I think optimal strategy might have been to give off blatant detective tells by making obvious breadcrumbs that bumatlarge was town. That was exactly what he did but this post kind of confused me: On August 18 2010 06:55 LSB wrote: Well... there is no godfather. I'll explain tomorrow morning (if I'm still alive). Basically my role revolved on taking out the godfather, however, there was no godfather, so I got a bastard role. Why? Even if you do not state you had 100% proof on bumatlarge's innocence, you fliping detective would have been enough for town to deduce bum was likely town who were checked. But by stating you had bastard role and nothing more, you put some holes in the bumatlarge's veracity. Now even if you were dead, one could argue all that breadcrumbing is meaningless because LSB had bastard role and had no way of knowing bumatlarge's alignment. The fact you died immediately didn't help matters either =/ Still, one of the players I liked. Next to come in my thoughts are... Ace. What a worst role to get! xD Considering he has high chance of being killed when given opportunity, his aggressiveness is somewhat justified, and I suspect he was trying to paint himself in bad lights as much as possible too. Attempt to outthink the mod severally inhibited his ability though (look at role PM, amount of caution I took to make mechanic speculation is simply ridiculous. I put in Suicidal Townie for sole reason of making mass penalty claim fail) and I agreed with his decision to push on Pyrrhuloxia even when he revealed his role, exactly because of his penalty. Becuase Ace bured his bridges by claiming that his role was communicated, by protecting him mafia would just know Ace is doctor and hit him n1 and Pyrr n2 so no investigation could have come off him anyway. Don't know how the game would have gone if he survived to day two, except that probably massive town circle would have formed as long as chaoser wasn't too trigger happy. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On August 18 2010 23:20 citi.zen wrote: Hmmm... I guess then the doctor role was just really weakened - the mafia can choose to hit a non-protected person every time. Since there are no clear ways to confirm people in this set-up (other than the day-vigi), was this nerf necessary? I must be missing some possibilities here... I think the doctor is more for protection. He're what I think Hesmyrr was thinking. Day 1, random person gets killed Day 2, Pyrr goes check someone, finds if they are green or red. Claims DT. Ace's role was to protect Pyrr. If the mafia decided to hit Pyrr, they'd have to waste the next nights role. Either way, that should create at 2 confirmed townies. Confirmed Townie 1: Ace, Hesmyrr's post in the night automatically gets him confirmed When Pyrr dies, whoever he checks will be confirmed, so that would leave 2 Confirmed Townies | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
Nytophobic Doctor and Obvious Day-Vigilante can mod verify themselves and is immediate clear when push comes to shove. Ambitious Detective/Cautious Detective pair can likely get at least one confirmed investigation off, and if he claim DT while doing so that is two player in likely town list. Essentially the game should be split into "Confirmed/Likely confirmed townie" and "unconfirmed". Doctor should only use his ability to protect those in the former group, and diminishing mafia ability to reduce the # of players in the first group. Obvious Day-Vigilante can also help to reduce the # of players in unconfirmed pool by shooting. I mentioned the hypothetical Ace/chaoser/LSB/bumatlarge group in the above post of mine. That's exactly how it should have worked. Had Ace survived, chaoser claims and reveal his intent to shoot Ace, and Ace subsequently fully claims also (or vice versa). Because both are mod-verifiable, their lynch should be delayed and chaoser would vote for someone in the "unconfirmed" pool while Ace protect him. Because two clear town roles are in open, LSB would also claim and reveal his bumatlarge investigation. ("Likely confirmed")Townie-Mafia Day 2: (4)4-3 Bill Murray lynched. Even in worst scenario is mis-vig and Ace is sniped Day 3: (3)3-2 even in random voting town has chance of getting mafia 44%. That's not bad position at all. Edit: It is more dependent on luck than I like, but generally there was at least two "clear" townies at some point in a game to prevent it from getting too lopsided. Overall as I had to cook up 13-player setup within few days, I am not that much ashamed of it  On the other hand, I would appreciate it if everyone gave an input on my setup so I can find a way to improve my performance on modding future games. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On August 18 2010 23:27 LSB wrote: I think the doctor is more for protection. He're what I think Hesmyrr was thinking. Day 1, random person gets killed Day 2, Pyrr goes check someone, finds if they are green or red. Claims DT. Ace's role was to protect Pyrr. If the mafia decided to hit Pyrr, they'd have to waste the next nights role. Either way, that should create at 2 confirmed townies. Confirmed Townie 1: Ace, Hesmyrr's post in the night automatically gets him confirmed When Pyrr dies, whoever he checks will be confirmed, so that would leave 2 Confirmed Townies Which would come down to lots of luck  1.)Pyrr would need to find scum with his DT check or else no point in claiming 2.) He'd then have to convince the town about this 3.)Both of us would have to survive 4.)Assuming this all happens, surely Mafia is going to trade their KP of the next night and shoot Pyrr or bank on the fact that he's going to only find a townie and shoot someone else. 5.)If I roleclaim early that I'm protecting Pyrr, they shoot me. If Pyrr's next investigation results in town they shoot him the next night and now we are just down to 1 confirmed townie and 2 scum. And this is if everything goes right. I don't see how thats such a major advantage to the town here. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On August 18 2010 23:32 Hesmyrr wrote: I mentioned the hypothetical Ace/chaoser/LSB/bumatlarge group in the above post of mine. That's exactly how it should have worked. Had Ace survived, chaoser claims and reveal his intent to shoot Ace, and Ace subsequently fully claims also (or vice versa). Because both are mod-verifiable, their lynch should be delayed and chaoser would vote for someone in the "unconfirmed" pool while Ace protect him. Because two clear town roles are in open, LSB would also claim and reveal his bumatlarge investigation. Ah! I see. As for Bum, I didn't bother claiming because he was never under much suspicion, and I didn't want him to get nightkilled, since I liked knowing who one of the townies was. I was planning on claiming and explaining everything day 4, but I got killed so that's that. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On August 18 2010 23:39 Hesmyrr wrote: Anyway thanks to everyone for playing my first modded game in TeamLiquid! It could have been far better - especially disappointed about my inability to produce flavour text in time, wireless internet getting kaputt every night did not help matters either - but it was valuable experience for me. Thanks for hosting! It was a fun concept that everyone got some sort of power, good or bad. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4QxzWw14F2U/Sy7GNjb_d_I/AAAAAAAAEDU/-dKUxEablHw/s400/225th+Street+Station+at+Dusk.jpg) Meeting takes place on the open street, as no one wanted to go back to the building that so greatly reminded them of their failures. New location- new beginning. Of course that was the official explanation, but everyone knew better: being on an open location, with many building nearby to flee for shelter should things turn sour, prevented the likelihood of oneself meeting youngminii's fate themselves. The suspicion was openly shared; most stood far away from each other, close enough to hear each other but not enough for somebody to pull an surprise attack. Some even cradled improvised melee weapon on their hands, steel pipe, kitchen knife, baseball bat. Some of the individuals who stood most threateningly were previously the one arguing against the irrational paranoia. It was clear moral order was breaking down on this former happy town, those who just preferred to kill everyone else instead of talking over steadily and firmly increasing. On such tense atmosphere it is nearly impossible to get any debate going, but it is soon apparent the town had caught an lucky break. A two-man group hiding in the building has seen chaoser move stealthily across the street with firearm in his possession through the window. The accused complains as he immediately stand up, his hand reaching toward part of the belt concealed by his cloth... People act quickly. Some sensing danger immediately cries and takes shelter wherever they can, hoping the man won't get any chance to get his shots in before wall is put between him and them. But more brave souls cry in anger - they had finally found someone who is responsible for their misery - and rush with their weapons swinging. However their choice to distance themselves from each other for security now act against them, as they cannot close the gap before chaoser manages to withdraw his pistol. The weapon glistens menacingly in the sun. "FREEZE FUCKERS!" The man screams in a tone that contains fear as much as authority. Attackers draw strength from apparent vulnerability, and throws the baseball bat toward the man in sudden fit of inspiration. Sudden range attack catches chaoser in surprise as it slams against his gut, causing the man to fire his weapon which goes off widely and curl up in pain. Others seize the chance and immediately starts beating him over his pained cry, taking as much pleasure as they can as he becomes very dead bloody pulp. Those who chose to flee cautiously come back- euphoric feeling hangs in the air. This is their first counterattack. Their moment of victory. Penaville may have gotten off with a rough start, but there are still glimmer of hope far beyond. chaoser, Mafia Goon, is lynched. The mafia may now communicate privately. All roles with night actions send in your targets. Deadline ends 24 hours from this post. . . . . . (not completed since Korynne lynch was coming back, essentially people are debating what to do with the gun and one realizes that the gun is Hesmyrr's hand gun - refer to day 1 flavour which I was going for when shot in the back - and it only has one shell and also uses different type of shell from murder weapon. chaoser in fact knew my gun and searched around the founder's house til he found it and kept it for security reasons, obligatory post about townies deporting in anger.) choaser, Obvious Day-Vigilante, is lynched. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On August 18 2010 23:36 LSB wrote: Ah! I see. As for Bum, I didn't bother claiming because he was never under much suspicion, and I didn't want him to get nightkilled, since I liked knowing who one of the townies was. I was planning on claiming and explaining everything day 4, but I got killed so that's that. I see bum as scum in every game. I don't know why. I can't help it =X. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
I just wanted everyone to claim penalties so you could HOLD everyone to their penalties and kill off the liars asap. From the perspective of most players this was not possible. You'd only know if I lied about my penalty by killing me. From my role pm I was pretty convinced townies had different types of penalties from blues (I didn't have to perform any "action" for the penalty to kick in). Bumatlarge, whose penalty we knew, was someone you would not even want to confirm, given his penalty - which was another issue with verifying penalties. This is why I thought Ace was red fishing for information to snipe blues. tl;dr: next time this is run it should be smoother since people won't make that many assumptions about the nature of the penalties. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
My read was also that Ace was the only person showing any kind of initiative for the town at all. This proved to be quite true over the course of the game. I was secretly hoping for someone to step it up but it never really happened. In addition, having him gone let me play my ever-popular "not there" mafia style. The only people in the game who've seen me play like that as mafia were Ace and Pyrr, and Pyrr was already gone. The lazy safeclaim was awesome for that, too. Hey Scamp, why aren't you voting? Oh, right. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Damn  | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
I disagree on the setup being that negative for town. Having a dayvig can do wonders. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
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