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On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?).
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On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?).
That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative.
Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage.
GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years.
If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize?
"Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country.
Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that.
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On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL.
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On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. Well i would agree on kato + the esl offline events being more competitive than gsl but nothing else, online is just straight diqualified because online and gsl still has the prep element that every other tournament is missing.
Also the argument that dark also lost in a first round ain't really an argument for your cause imo as it just proves that gsl is more cutthroat so it is harder to win. And if we look at the last esl summer the playoffs were still 6 koreans (without maru or herO even as they failed before), so yea average gsl level is probably still higher.
And well if all the korans would not go to kato or esl summer/winter they instantly would become less worth than a gsl as well imo so that is also kinda unfair in favor of the international events as was said before.
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On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. You know why i think this is bullshit? Because the Europeans Regionlocked the Korean players out of their scene because they were so unhappy about them winning everything only for that very regionlocking to slowly kill the Korean scene off because there wasn't enough prize money to go around to all of the players there.
So foreigners to protect their own players banned their competition from competing in their tournaments, only to then turn around and say "oh yea those tournaments aren't worth it anymore, only OURS are legit now."
Yea, the Korean scene is a lot smaller than it used to be, it'll be gone completely when Stormgate launches I'm sure. But yet this small shell of a scene still takes up a minimum of 8 of the top 10 spots at every international event. The level of play is higher in GSL even if it's a smaller tournament than it used to be. Trying to minimize how prestigious the title is is ridiculous when it's still the top players of the world competing offline for it.
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On July 28 2023 20:49 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. Well i would agree on kato + the esl offline events being more competitive than gsl but nothing else, online is just straight diqualified because online and gsl still has the prep element that every other tournament is missing. Also the argument that dark also lost in a first round ain't really an argument for your cause imo as it just proves that gsl is more cutthroat so it is harder to win. And if we look at the last esl summer the playoffs were still 6 koreans (without maru or herO even as they failed before), so yea average gsl level is probably still higher. And well if all the korans would not go to kato or esl summer/winter they instantly would become less worth than a gsl as well imo so that is also kinda unfair in favor of the international events as was said before. It's not an argument for anything, people lose all the time early on, it's a cherrypicked data point, it's not necessarily representative. That is the point. Imagine a world where the top foreigners would all play in gsl for a full year. Do we really believe that they wouldn't do well? Noone can prove it, as it doesn't happen, but we see them play the korean counterparts regularly, and they are easily competitive, with players like serral and reynor being championship favorites / contenders. Heck, oliveira won katowice. The argument isn't that korean players aren't on average better, the argument is that as a tournament, a gsl isn't showcasing the highest density of talent any longer. Before you could look at any tournament and see that a gsl had a more impressive playerbase on the whole. Now you look at it and an international tournament probably does. That is the argument. Yep, of the koreans would do that, then that would be the case, but it is not.
On July 28 2023 20:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. You know why i think this is bullshit? Because the Europeans Regionlocked the Korean players out of their scene because they were so unhappy about them winning everything only for that very regionlocking to slowly kill the Korean scene off because there wasn't enough prize money to go around to all of the players there. So foreigners to protect their own players banned their competition from competing in their tournaments, only to then turn around and say "oh yea those tournaments aren't worth it anymore, only OURS are legit now." Yea, the Korean scene is a lot smaller than it used to be, it'll be gone completely when Stormgate launches I'm sure. But yet this small shell of a scene still takes up a minimum of 8 of the top 10 spots at every international event. The level of play is higher in GSL even if it's a smaller tournament than it used to be. Trying to minimize how prestigious the title is is ridiculous when it's still the top players of the world competing offline for it.
This is such a non answer to the topic, i am almost impressed. Why do you bring up region locking in this conversation? It has no bearing on comparing the current strength of tournaments. I also disagree with your 'analysis' quite a bit, but that isn't here nor there. How is it ridiculous? If the competitive level isn't as high as it was before, ofc the prestige is lower. That some people just look at how the tournament is called, "GSL CODE S" and pretend it's the same as 5 years ago, or during kespa, so be it, perceptions ultimately create the narrative, but it's stupid. And yes, on average the korean top players ARE better than the foreign ones, that is why they generally make up most of the high finished in international tournaments. Doesn't change that some foreigners can compete on that level, and would strengthen the average code s field these days noticeably. That a strong international field these days is probably harder to win than a code s. That is the argument.
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France12738 Posts
On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. Yeah, Dark was knocked out in the first group stage. It's the point though, in GSL, even nowadays, you can be a top player and get out as early as in the ro16 (or back in the days, ro32). There is no other regional tournament where it is the case: DH-EU, no way a top 8 european, or even top 12 player, can be eliminated during group stage or the current swiss pool format (ESL Pro Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Regionals/EU).
Afreecas champion cup is similar to a King of Battles, while DH inter tournaments played offline are similar to current (2023 reduced) Code S. However, while we can say Code S misses Serral, as in the tournament would be even higher level / important with Serral in it, that's true. As for the other europeans, mayyybe it's the case for Reynor, but his current form is not that impressive, but Clem / HeroMarine / ShoWTimE (let's not talk about MaxPax since he doesn't play offline) don't matter at all with their current level. Only Serral and Reynor qualified for the playoffs, Clem is not godlike anymore in TvZ AND he seems even weaker in TvP/TvT than before. HeroMarine has not been able to reproduce his Katowice 2022 success, while ShoWTimE is not necessarily better than Astrea or SKillous.
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On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote: "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country.
Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that.
Well the last time a tournament like this was on Korean soil, Serral came, saw, conquered and flew home again... twice. So there is that
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On July 28 2023 20:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:49 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. Well i would agree on kato + the esl offline events being more competitive than gsl but nothing else, online is just straight diqualified because online and gsl still has the prep element that every other tournament is missing. Also the argument that dark also lost in a first round ain't really an argument for your cause imo as it just proves that gsl is more cutthroat so it is harder to win. And if we look at the last esl summer the playoffs were still 6 koreans (without maru or herO even as they failed before), so yea average gsl level is probably still higher. And well if all the korans would not go to kato or esl summer/winter they instantly would become less worth than a gsl as well imo so that is also kinda unfair in favor of the international events as was said before. It's not an argument for anything, people lose all the time early on, it's a cherrypicked data point, it's not necessarily representative. That is the point. Imagine a world where the top foreigners would all play in gsl for a full year. Do we really believe that they wouldn't do well? Noone can prove it, as it doesn't happen, but we see them play the korean counterparts regularly, and they are easily competitive, with players like serral and reynor being championship favorites / contenders. Heck, oliveira won katowice. The argument isn't that korean players aren't on average better, the argument is that as a tournament, a gsl isn't showcasing the highest density of talent any longer. Before you could look at any tournament and see that a gsl had a more impressive playerbase on the whole. Now you look at it and an international tournament probably does. That is the argument. Yep, of the koreans would do that, then that would be the case, but it is not. Yea but that's the point right gsl is less competitive than the events where foreigners and koreans are together because the foreigners just dont wanna go while we at the same time expect koreans to come to all the international events like its nothing while saying the foreigners dont need to go to the gsl because its less competitve, there is some kind of double standard there.
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On July 28 2023 21:09 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:49 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. Well i would agree on kato + the esl offline events being more competitive than gsl but nothing else, online is just straight diqualified because online and gsl still has the prep element that every other tournament is missing. Also the argument that dark also lost in a first round ain't really an argument for your cause imo as it just proves that gsl is more cutthroat so it is harder to win. And if we look at the last esl summer the playoffs were still 6 koreans (without maru or herO even as they failed before), so yea average gsl level is probably still higher. And well if all the korans would not go to kato or esl summer/winter they instantly would become less worth than a gsl as well imo so that is also kinda unfair in favor of the international events as was said before. It's not an argument for anything, people lose all the time early on, it's a cherrypicked data point, it's not necessarily representative. That is the point. Imagine a world where the top foreigners would all play in gsl for a full year. Do we really believe that they wouldn't do well? Noone can prove it, as it doesn't happen, but we see them play the korean counterparts regularly, and they are easily competitive, with players like serral and reynor being championship favorites / contenders. Heck, oliveira won katowice. The argument isn't that korean players aren't on average better, the argument is that as a tournament, a gsl isn't showcasing the highest density of talent any longer. Before you could look at any tournament and see that a gsl had a more impressive playerbase on the whole. Now you look at it and an international tournament probably does. That is the argument. Yep, of the koreans would do that, then that would be the case, but it is not. Yea but that's the point right gsl is less competitive than the events where foreigners and koreans are together because the foreigners just dont wanna go while we at the same time expect koreans to come to all the international events like its nothing while saying the foreigners dont need to go to the gsl because its less competitve, there is some kind of double standard there. Who cares? This isn't a moral argument about what players should or shouldn't do to raise the tournament scene to its maximum interest. It's a descriptive statement about the scene and tournament strengths. Why even try to make it something else? If you wanna be angry at the foreigners for not playing code s, be angry i guess, completely besides the point though.
On July 28 2023 20:58 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. Yeah, Dark was knocked out in the first group stage. It's the point though, in GSL, even nowadays, you can be a top player and get out as early as in the ro16 (or back in the days, ro32). There is no other regional tournament where it is the case: DH-EU, no way a top 8 european, or even top 12 player, can be eliminated during group stage or the current swiss pool format ( ESL Pro Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Regionals/EU).Afreecas champion cup is similar to a King of Battles, while DH inter tournaments played offline are similar to current (2023 reduced) Code S. However, while we can say Code S misses Serral, as in the tournament would be even higher level / important with Serral in it, that's true. As for the other europeans, mayyybe it's the case for Reynor, but his current form is not that impressive, but Clem / HeroMarine / ShoWTimE (let's not talk about MaxPax since he doesn't play offline) don't matter at all with their current level. Only Serral and Reynor qualified for the playoffs, Clem is not godlike anymore in TvZ AND he seems even weaker in TvP/TvT than before. HeroMarine has not been able to reproduce his Katowice 2022 success, while ShoWTimE is not necessarily better than Astrea or SKillous. Ofc you can, you could also fly out in katowice early on. Again, the argument IS NOT that code s is super easy, it is that it lost out in depth compared to what it was, so much so that it isn't THE tournament any longer. There are some korean fanboys (and i am a korean fanboy!) going around pretending it still is that tournament where if you win 3 in a row you are automatically the goat, but these times are long over. Maru doing well at katowice is a lot more impressive than him winning a code s. Him doing well at any international event where the top players are is more impressive. These tournaments are THE tournaments now. To be very clear though, ofc this isn't just about code s, the current scene in general is simply a lot less competitive, as more and more good players (good to championship contender lvl) retired and basically no new challengers appeared. That is just how the sc2 scene developped, even these top tournaments now are just a shadow of what a really stacked tournament looked like years ago or during kespa era. That is why i hold the position that we are basically in a post professional era, akin to other scenes (like the korean bw one), with the difference that there is still more money in tournaments due to some investors really wanting to burn it (thanks!). But as a competitive scene it's on life support, with the same handful of players getting top 3 all the time. It's ridiculous imo to even pretend that what happens now matters in the grand scheme of sc2.
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On July 28 2023 21:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 21:09 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:49 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. Well i would agree on kato + the esl offline events being more competitive than gsl but nothing else, online is just straight diqualified because online and gsl still has the prep element that every other tournament is missing. Also the argument that dark also lost in a first round ain't really an argument for your cause imo as it just proves that gsl is more cutthroat so it is harder to win. And if we look at the last esl summer the playoffs were still 6 koreans (without maru or herO even as they failed before), so yea average gsl level is probably still higher. And well if all the korans would not go to kato or esl summer/winter they instantly would become less worth than a gsl as well imo so that is also kinda unfair in favor of the international events as was said before. It's not an argument for anything, people lose all the time early on, it's a cherrypicked data point, it's not necessarily representative. That is the point. Imagine a world where the top foreigners would all play in gsl for a full year. Do we really believe that they wouldn't do well? Noone can prove it, as it doesn't happen, but we see them play the korean counterparts regularly, and they are easily competitive, with players like serral and reynor being championship favorites / contenders. Heck, oliveira won katowice. The argument isn't that korean players aren't on average better, the argument is that as a tournament, a gsl isn't showcasing the highest density of talent any longer. Before you could look at any tournament and see that a gsl had a more impressive playerbase on the whole. Now you look at it and an international tournament probably does. That is the argument. Yep, of the koreans would do that, then that would be the case, but it is not. Yea but that's the point right gsl is less competitive than the events where foreigners and koreans are together because the foreigners just dont wanna go while we at the same time expect koreans to come to all the international events like its nothing while saying the foreigners dont need to go to the gsl because its less competitve, there is some kind of double standard there. Who cares? This isn't a moral argument about what players should or shouldn't do to raise the tournament scene to its maximum interest. It's a descriptive statement about the scene and tournament strengths. Why even try to make it something else? If you wanna be angry at the foreigners for not playing code s, be angry i guess, completely besides the point though. I mean i agreed on the esl offline events and kato being more competitve than gsl so w/e but if anyone wanna argue about some online events like the post that started this suggested we enter clown territory.
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On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?).
if we had live-in-person debates we'd have a better idea how many of these people believe what they are saying. We'd also have a better idea how many people say it just to see if they can get someone to write a reply longer than Zack Snyder's Justice League.
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On July 28 2023 21:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?).
if we had live-in-person debates we'd have a better idea how many of these people believe what they are saying. We'd also have a better idea how many people say it just to see if they can get someone to write a reply longer than Zack Snyder's Justice League. I sat through his justice league (better than the theater cut for sure though), i think we're still good on that
On July 28 2023 21:16 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 21:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 21:09 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:49 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote:On July 28 2023 00:07 Cricketer12 wrote: 7 GSL wins and homies really gonna say Serral is the GOAT According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. Well i would agree on kato + the esl offline events being more competitive than gsl but nothing else, online is just straight diqualified because online and gsl still has the prep element that every other tournament is missing. Also the argument that dark also lost in a first round ain't really an argument for your cause imo as it just proves that gsl is more cutthroat so it is harder to win. And if we look at the last esl summer the playoffs were still 6 koreans (without maru or herO even as they failed before), so yea average gsl level is probably still higher. And well if all the korans would not go to kato or esl summer/winter they instantly would become less worth than a gsl as well imo so that is also kinda unfair in favor of the international events as was said before. It's not an argument for anything, people lose all the time early on, it's a cherrypicked data point, it's not necessarily representative. That is the point. Imagine a world where the top foreigners would all play in gsl for a full year. Do we really believe that they wouldn't do well? Noone can prove it, as it doesn't happen, but we see them play the korean counterparts regularly, and they are easily competitive, with players like serral and reynor being championship favorites / contenders. Heck, oliveira won katowice. The argument isn't that korean players aren't on average better, the argument is that as a tournament, a gsl isn't showcasing the highest density of talent any longer. Before you could look at any tournament and see that a gsl had a more impressive playerbase on the whole. Now you look at it and an international tournament probably does. That is the argument. Yep, of the koreans would do that, then that would be the case, but it is not. Yea but that's the point right gsl is less competitive than the events where foreigners and koreans are together because the foreigners just dont wanna go while we at the same time expect koreans to come to all the international events like its nothing while saying the foreigners dont need to go to the gsl because its less competitve, there is some kind of double standard there. Who cares? This isn't a moral argument about what players should or shouldn't do to raise the tournament scene to its maximum interest. It's a descriptive statement about the scene and tournament strengths. Why even try to make it something else? If you wanna be angry at the foreigners for not playing code s, be angry i guess, completely besides the point though. I mean i agreed on the esl offline events and kato being more competitve than gsl so w/e but if anyone wanna argue about some online events like the post that started this suggested we enter clown territory. Sure, online play in general cannot be compared to offline play as the ping situation just doesn't allow for real comparisons per se, i agree. But in your comment you talked about some kind of virtue of the koreans who make international tournaments stronger, while foreigners don't do that with code s. It's silly imo.
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On July 28 2023 21:22 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 21:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?).
if we had live-in-person debates we'd have a better idea how many of these people believe what they are saying. We'd also have a better idea how many people say it just to see if they can get someone to write a reply longer than Zack Snyder's Justice League. I sat through his justice league (better than the theater cut for sure though), i think we're still good on that Show nested quote +On July 28 2023 21:16 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 21:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 21:09 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:49 darklycid wrote:On July 28 2023 20:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 20:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 28 2023 20:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 28 2023 00:28 tigera6 wrote: [quote] According to some people, ESL Master and Afreeca Champion is better than GSL. At this point? Yes absolutely (tbf, online tournaments are probably not, though it can become arguably depending on the playerbase), international tournaments which include players like serral, reynor, clem, showtime, etc are more impressive these days than a gsl code s. No doubt about that. People look at gsl through a historic lense, it was THE tournament for most of sc2's runtime, a starleague where you had the best of the best and no other tournament could really challenge to have a higer denisity of talent in it. Now? That isn't the case any longer no. Maru winning three gsls in a row now isn't nearly as impressive as it was in 2018, and even then it was already not as impressive as doing so in 2015. I have no idea how people pretend it's the same thing. It's honestly comparable to equating an OSL win at kespa's height to winning an ASL. Not even close in 'actual prestige' (though i guess as long as people pretend it is, it is?). That's because people are trying to be revisionist to fit the narrative. Fact, no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S. The last time a top foreigner even tried he was knocked out in the first group stage. GSLs are smaller now thanks to the general decline of the Korean scene, but the skill level is still so high in general that even when the Korean scene is at its weakest no foreign player can come in and win it, on their ground, in their format. No foreigner has even come close in years. If it's so easy to win GSLs now that Maru can rattle off 3 in a row like it's nothing, then how come no foreigner can even come close to touching the prize? "Oh but they have to travel to Korea and stay in Korea...." well hey that's convenient, we don't seem to hold the Korean players to that same standard of sympathy when they fly across the world to win tournaments. How convenient that for a world championship held in Katowice that the European players can hop on a train or a flight and be there in less time than it takes for me to travel halfway across my own country. Must be nice though, we get to decide that the offline events that take place in Europe are now the most prestigious in the world just because they have a higher number of players playing them. Imagine if the Koreans decided it was too hard or not worth it to go travel to those events? Thankfully for us they hold themselves to higher expectations than that. So what if reynor was knocked out in the first group stage? You know who also got knocked out in the group stage? Dark. It just happens, daily form and whatever can allign in ways which are not fully representative of player strength, and the better player doesn't always win anyway. The argument isn't that GSL is easy to win now, the argument is that it isn't the hardest tournament in the circuit to win any longer. It's not THE tournament in sc2 at this moment in time. An international tournament now is more impactful, that was basically never the case in sc2's history (one could have made arguments about blizzcon MAYBE, but honestly a gsl had the more impressive player pool). If you really want to argue that isn't the case, then do it on that basis, not on some cherrypicked one about foreigners not coming close to win it. It's not like it's high on the priority list of most top foreigners to even try, is it. That there are differences in players' comfort and whatever which could lead to variance in their performances, i mean, that is simply how it is. I don't care about excuses, just like i don't care about excusing maru when he doesn't look as sharp after travelling. You either can deal with it, that is part of the job, or you cannot. Every tournament which is held offline introduces its own challenges in that way, you either perform there or you don't. Either way, i think it is more than obvious that a gsl win in 2023 isn't nearly as impactful as one in 2018, which already wasn't as impactful as one during kespa. And that the talent pool in the sc2 scene now is at a point where gsl isn't THE tournament any longer. I said it somewhere else, but the gsl needs the likes of serral, reynor, clem, showtime, heromarine (whoever you wanna pick as a top foreigner) more than they need it on their resume now. If you just wanna look at the gsl through that historical lense and pretend it's even close to that prestige now, go ahead, i think it's ridiculous. Akin to an ASL win compared to MSL / OSL. Well i would agree on kato + the esl offline events being more competitive than gsl but nothing else, online is just straight diqualified because online and gsl still has the prep element that every other tournament is missing. Also the argument that dark also lost in a first round ain't really an argument for your cause imo as it just proves that gsl is more cutthroat so it is harder to win. And if we look at the last esl summer the playoffs were still 6 koreans (without maru or herO even as they failed before), so yea average gsl level is probably still higher. And well if all the korans would not go to kato or esl summer/winter they instantly would become less worth than a gsl as well imo so that is also kinda unfair in favor of the international events as was said before. It's not an argument for anything, people lose all the time early on, it's a cherrypicked data point, it's not necessarily representative. That is the point. Imagine a world where the top foreigners would all play in gsl for a full year. Do we really believe that they wouldn't do well? Noone can prove it, as it doesn't happen, but we see them play the korean counterparts regularly, and they are easily competitive, with players like serral and reynor being championship favorites / contenders. Heck, oliveira won katowice. The argument isn't that korean players aren't on average better, the argument is that as a tournament, a gsl isn't showcasing the highest density of talent any longer. Before you could look at any tournament and see that a gsl had a more impressive playerbase on the whole. Now you look at it and an international tournament probably does. That is the argument. Yep, of the koreans would do that, then that would be the case, but it is not. Yea but that's the point right gsl is less competitive than the events where foreigners and koreans are together because the foreigners just dont wanna go while we at the same time expect koreans to come to all the international events like its nothing while saying the foreigners dont need to go to the gsl because its less competitve, there is some kind of double standard there. Who cares? This isn't a moral argument about what players should or shouldn't do to raise the tournament scene to its maximum interest. It's a descriptive statement about the scene and tournament strengths. Why even try to make it something else? If you wanna be angry at the foreigners for not playing code s, be angry i guess, completely besides the point though. I mean i agreed on the esl offline events and kato being more competitve than gsl so w/e but if anyone wanna argue about some online events like the post that started this suggested we enter clown territory. Sure, online play in general cannot be compared to offline play as the ping situation just doesn't allow for real comparisons per se, i agree. But in your comment you talked about some kind of virtue of the koreans who make international tournaments stronger, while foreigners don't do that with code s. It's silly imo. Well the last part is more for the (annoying) goat debate where ppl are willing to let serral slide not having code s by saying its not worth as much anymore which is because of this cycle of foreigner not going -> less competittive -> foreigners not wanting to go which is then accepted, but i don't really have a horse in the goat debate so not really keen on discussing that more :D
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Well, personally I think no tournament won in 2023 should count much towards the Goat debate, the difference between the 2-3 additional top players in international tournaments shouldn't make the difference here.
Many people disagree, but you need to be at least consistent with that, you can't value IEM Katowice in 2023 the same as IEM Katowice in 2018, and then say GSL in 2023 isn't worth nearly as much as GSL in 2018 due to the reduced number of top players, because Katowice lost just as many top players.
Just looking at one year in isolation, I agree that international offline events are now worth more than a GSL, but looking at the whole picture it's more complicated i.e. GSL in 2020 had more top players than international events in 2022 etc.
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Well yeah, that is what i have brought up multiple times now in regards to the scene on the whole and in one comment in here too. I think it is quite obvious that the current landscape of sc2 is far inferior to that of a few years ago, which was already inferior to the kespa days. I think one has to contextualize the scene in some way depending on its competitive level, just ignoring that we lost so many good players which were integral for the scene to be what it was is maybe in the best interest of people making money off of it (which is why you heard casters say the newest tournament was the best ever all the time), but it's certainly intellectually dishonest. But for the purpose of this topic, ackonwledging that a gsl isn't the height of sc2 in this current scene for a standalone tournament, idk, that shouldn't be controversial at all imo. At some point the korean dickriding is just too much, and if anyone saw me post over the years they should know that i am certainly not a foreign fanboy.
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On July 28 2023 07:12 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2023 22:45 Poopi wrote: Great finals, impressive showing from Maru today. From a very bad start vs Cure to the reverse sweep into the 4-2 finals victory Such a dominant force! The landed viking trade in G5 vs Cure was such a wild ride. Dark actually looked like he was playing scared vs Maru after being so dominant against Gumi. I thought the Roach+Corruptor comp was awesome vs Gumi... dunno why he didn't bring that vs Maru. I can't stand watching Zergs fight against Terran with ZERO AA. Deflecting drops over and over and over is pointless if you get no damage done and kill no units. Build some Hydras or Corruptors ffs. Dropping fungals on packs of ghosts with 10 medivacs on top of them ALSO does nothing. Zzz. fungal on ghosts is usually to reveal them so its possible to kill them when they are out of position. overseers die to mass snipe so you need fungal for the cloak. zerg doesnt build the infestors to fungal ghosts it's just one purpose they can serve
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On July 28 2023 23:47 The_Red_Viper wrote: Well yeah, that is what i have brought up multiple times now in regards to the scene on the whole and in one comment in here too. I think it is quite obvious that the current landscape of sc2 is far inferior to that of a few years ago, which was already inferior to the kespa days. I think one has to contextualize the scene in some way depending on its competitive level, just ignoring that we lost so many good players which were integral for the scene to be what it was is maybe in the best interest of people making money off of it (which is why you heard casters say the newest tournament was the best ever all the time), but it's certainly intellectually dishonest. But for the purpose of this topic, ackonwledging that a gsl isn't the height of sc2 in this current scene for a standalone tournament, idk, that shouldn't be controversial at all imo. At some point the korean dickriding is just too much, and if anyone saw me post over the years they should know that i am certainly not a foreign fanboy. How is the international tournament is considered better than GSL today? With the exception of Serral, its not like the rest of the players are that MUCH better than current KR players. We literally just saw Clem and Reynor got knocked out of tournaments right? I still think the competitive level of GSL is just as good as any other ESL tournament, they just have lesser prizepool. I am not trying to argue how GSL is still the most prestige tournament outside of World Championship, but I dont think its any worse than any other tournament neither. At worst its a 50/50 between GSL and those ESL Master. i.e. Serral winning Global Final in June isnt more impressive than Maru winning his GSL which was my original point.
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I stopped watching after the first game of Maru vs Dark, but continued watching today. Such amazing series from Maru. The Game 4 and 6 were beautifully crafted to repel the roach-ravagers timing push at minimal casualties. The only exception was Game 3 (I think he learnt from Byun) in which I thought he should make one dropship or shouldn't go deeper enough with all SCVs.
For Dark, I just thought he shouldn't make a tone of lurkers/blords when the ghosts appear. He should change fast to lings-banes push to destroy Maru economy. and then transitioned fast to lurkers after all the ghosts have been killed or Maru started making hellions.
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